SloopJonB
Super Anarchist
No - people don't die en mass from uncontrolled yachting.
Stinkpot Agound at Honolua Bay
- Thread starter silent bob
- Start date
silent bob
Super Anarchist
- Thread starter
- #282
My gun rights have been severely restricted by my government limiting access to all people because of a small percentage of criminals, and then they don’t fully prosecute the criminals!
SloopJonB
Super Anarchist
You're right, I agree.
kinardly
Super Anarchist
Back to my question: Can the owner declare BK and walk away? Are there no criminal acts with which to charge him?
Here's some food for thought;
In regards to declaring bankruptcy I don't think he will have an option. The fact that he needed a cash investor to help him buy the Nakoa tells me he is not deep enough pockets and probably unable to pay all his bills & creditors.
On the other hand he might have substantial but illiquid assets that he did not want to leverage or put at risk in this venture, such as the Noelani, but which assets the creditors will want to get at through a bankruptcy.
Financial ruin is not really walking away but if you mean no jail time then yeah, he probably will. If there is a criminal act here it's probably more a pay by mail written citation than a jailable offense.
It might be that some creatively hateful prosecutor comes up with a wire fraud or tax evasion angle, but I don't think anybody wants to invest the time or money in pursuit thereof if the judge is just likely going to give him probation, if convicted.
Somebody Else
a person of little consequence
You've just about defined the course of all government regulation.
Laws exist because there are enough humans who do not follow the moral codes -- which change from place to place and year to year -- so these codes have to be quantified in detail and turned into laws. Any detail that isn't covered will eventually turn up as a loophole to be exploited.
MauiPunter
Will sail for food
And again.... This time a boat grounded on a VERY significant archeological site called the "Birthing Stone" in Lahaina.
spankoka
Super Anarchist
I can see why the state of Hawaii seems cool to pleasure boating in general.
Great Red Shark
Super Anarchist
The county of Maui hasn't added a single slip of boating capacity in 40 years, while the resident population has doubled and the visitor traffic has increased 10-fold.
Expected result?
Expected result?
MauiPunter
Will sail for food
And we do nearly zero maintenance of facilities here. Things get fixed when things break.
floater
Super Duper Anarchist
except that being in the water there absolutely incredible.
MauiPunter
Will sail for food
It's a problem they create for themselves, unfortunately.
Grande Mastere Dreade
Snag's spellchecker
the rumor was that the doors made cheap surf boards
Talchotali
Capt. Marvel's Wise Friend
Further to the second grounding reported above...
DLNR officials released a statement:
"To avoid damaging a culturally significant site, the DLNR Division of Boating and Ocean Recreation has informed the owner that we are taking control of the boat. We will immediately hire a contractor to move the vessel to a safe location. The owner was also notified that he will be liable for any damage to coral and/or live rock as a result of the grounding and salvage."
Many Maui residents said the number of boats washed up on their shores is growing. Now, a fairly large boat has been stuck for days on a reef in a historic district in Lahaina.
LAHAINA, Hawaii (KITV4) -- Many Maui residents said the number of boats washed up on their shores is growing. Now, a fairly large boat has been stuck for days on a reef in a historic district in Lahaina.
One resident believes the grounded boat is causing damage.
An activist, Keeaumoku Kapu told KITV4 he has seen about four grounded boats in just the past month. Before he used to see only one or two in a given year. This latest one concerns him the most.
"That seawall is a historic property and any impact to that seawall is going to trigger a lot of concerns, not just from the native Hawaiian community but from historians that know this area," said Kapu.
Kapu said he reached out to the Department of Land and Natural Resources (DLNR) on a plan to remove it but has not heard back.
"The state or the owners need to do their due diligence by checking these moorings, checking their lines and making sure everything is secure. If not, they need to be penalized. Too much has happened already like negative impacts to the environment,” said Kapu.
He and other residents are pushing to limit boat mooring especially in the historic district, as well as better inspections. Others in the area said there are many neglected boats that leave behind debris in waters.
"As soon as we get a storm that comes through, the boats come on shore. When they hit the reefs many of the boats break apart. That’s when we get fuels spill, diesel spills, hydraulic spills and so on," said Kekai Keahu, Lahaina resident.
DLNR officials are urging the public to better secure their vessels so that additional grounding can be prevented.
They released a statement:
"To avoid damaging a culturally significant site, the DLNR Division of Boating and Ocean Recreation has informed the owner that we are taking control of the boat. We will immediately hire a contractor to move the vessel to a safe location. The owner was also notified that he will be liable for any damage to coral and/or live rock as a result of the grounding and salvage."
video:
www.kitv.com
DLNR officials released a statement:
"To avoid damaging a culturally significant site, the DLNR Division of Boating and Ocean Recreation has informed the owner that we are taking control of the boat. We will immediately hire a contractor to move the vessel to a safe location. The owner was also notified that he will be liable for any damage to coral and/or live rock as a result of the grounding and salvage."
Grounded boat floats outside historical district on Maui shore
Courtesy KITV4- By Shanila Kabir
- Mar 18, 2023 Updated 21 hrs ago
Many Maui residents said the number of boats washed up on their shores is growing. Now, a fairly large boat has been stuck for days on a reef in a historic district in Lahaina.
LAHAINA, Hawaii (KITV4) -- Many Maui residents said the number of boats washed up on their shores is growing. Now, a fairly large boat has been stuck for days on a reef in a historic district in Lahaina.
One resident believes the grounded boat is causing damage.
An activist, Keeaumoku Kapu told KITV4 he has seen about four grounded boats in just the past month. Before he used to see only one or two in a given year. This latest one concerns him the most.
"That seawall is a historic property and any impact to that seawall is going to trigger a lot of concerns, not just from the native Hawaiian community but from historians that know this area," said Kapu.
Kapu said he reached out to the Department of Land and Natural Resources (DLNR) on a plan to remove it but has not heard back.
"The state or the owners need to do their due diligence by checking these moorings, checking their lines and making sure everything is secure. If not, they need to be penalized. Too much has happened already like negative impacts to the environment,” said Kapu.
He and other residents are pushing to limit boat mooring especially in the historic district, as well as better inspections. Others in the area said there are many neglected boats that leave behind debris in waters.
"As soon as we get a storm that comes through, the boats come on shore. When they hit the reefs many of the boats break apart. That’s when we get fuels spill, diesel spills, hydraulic spills and so on," said Kekai Keahu, Lahaina resident.
DLNR officials are urging the public to better secure their vessels so that additional grounding can be prevented.
They released a statement:
"To avoid damaging a culturally significant site, the DLNR Division of Boating and Ocean Recreation has informed the owner that we are taking control of the boat. We will immediately hire a contractor to move the vessel to a safe location. The owner was also notified that he will be liable for any damage to coral and/or live rock as a result of the grounding and salvage."
video:
Grounded boat floats outside historical district on Maui shore
Many Maui residents said the number of boats washed up on their shores is growing. Now, a fairly large boat has been stuck for days on a reef in a
MauiPunter
Will sail for food
Some of you may not know about this, but there was a wrecked sailboat on the reef in front of Lahaina that sat there for a couple of decades because no one wanted to do anything about it.
It finally disintegrated to the point you can no longer see it. I think that wreck happened in the late 80s early 90s. I cant really remember now. It's still there but under the water.
It finally disintegrated to the point you can no longer see it. I think that wreck happened in the late 80s early 90s. I cant really remember now. It's still there but under the water.
silent bob
Super Anarchist
- Thread starter
- #297
It's very much like Hollister Ranch and Lunada Bay, the locals will do a lot to keep others out of their hood. If you take the door and toilet seats off, visitors won't want to visit. The Lunada Bay Boys would slash tires. The Hollister Ranch group would sabotage the hoists at Gaviota Pier and Goleta Beach Pier, to keep others from gaining access.
https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/sessions/session2023/bills/HR150_.HTM
You know you're in trouble when the state legislature creates an assembly bill specifically to deal with you and what you did.
You know you're in trouble when the state legislature creates an assembly bill specifically to deal with you and what you did.
Great Red Shark
Super Anarchist
The motor yacht Ku'uipo that went up on the rocks near Lahaina - that one's been bouncing around Oahu's marinas since the late '80s - I recall it arriving brand-new with all sorts of shaft-alignment and other mechanical issues. I don't think it was ever sorted out - every owner since then couldn't wait to sell it on.
Talchotali
Capt. Marvel's Wise Friend
Insightful Article
Courtesy of Honolulu Civil Beat:
The crashed vessel in Honolua and a wave of groundings during last week's storms put a focus on just how hard it is to haul away grounded boats.
By Marina Starleaf Riker
As a fierce storm swept through the islands last week, Maui residents’ social media feeds were filled with photos of all the boats that had been wrecked.
In West Maui, two sailboats were stuck in the shallow water at the north end of Front Street. Less than 2 miles away, a large motorboat was lodged into the reef outside Lahaina Harbor. On the other side of the island, another watercraft crashed onto the beach in north Kihei.
It’s not uncommon for boats to wash ashore in bad weather on Maui. But last week’s wave of groundings drew more attention, having occurred days after a marine salvaging company had finally hauled away a luxury yacht that crashed outside of one of Maui’s most beloved marine sanctuaries.
Multiple vessels ran aground in Maui during the Kona Low last week. (Marina Riker/Civil Beat/2023)
Because of its sheer mass and the location where it ran aground on the rocky coastline at Honolua Bay, the high-profile effort to free the 94-foot, 120-ton yacht put a spotlight on the marine salvage industry — and the challenges facing the people tasked with recovering wrecked ships.
Marine salvage operations often come with a dangerous combination of waves, wind, reefs, rocks and slippery vessels weighing thousands of pounds that are constantly being jostled around. Then, even after salvors succeed in freeing them, complications can arise when trying to get insurance companies to cover the cost — or waiting on boat owners or the state government to pay up when that doesn’t happen.
Hawaii also has a limited number of marine salvage companies, and most of them are located on Oahu.
“I, too, didn’t appreciate how difficult this was,” Dawn Chang, who heads the state Department of Land and Natural Resources, said in a video statement after the yacht was finally hauled away from Honolua Bay on March 5.
The agency struggled to find a company with the experience and equipment to take on one of the most logistically challenging and politically charged marine salvage jobs in recent Hawaii history.
DLNR hired the Oahu-based Visionary Marine company for $460,000 to haul away the yacht operated by Noelani Yacht Charters. The owner of the company, Jim Jones, has said that he plans to pay the state back. The government also has warned it will “aggressively pursue” the payment. After two weeks on the reef, the ship was scuttled after taking on water during the tow.
A luxury yacht ran aground on Maui on Feb. 20. It was freed March 5. (Courtesy: DLNR/2023)
Because of the physically — and financially — volatile nature of the job, the industry is a tough one to make it in.
Michael Parker, who runs Oahu-based Parker Marine Towing and Salvage, which often responds to wrecks on Maui, said he has been working in the industry for decades and is acutely aware of the hardships that come with it.
When jobs start, there are the dangers that come with working underwater, often in surf zones where boats crash. It also requires getting your timing to free a ship just right; otherwise the tides, wind and waves can stand in the way of success.
“I’ve only gotten hurt once, when I ripped my thumb off,” Parker said. “I’ve been doing it my lifetime … so more than 1,000 wrecks. I expected to get hurt sometime.”
He also cited financial uncertainties, saying salvors risk not getting “paid a dime” even after spending hours on a job if they aren’t able to haul a ship away, thanks to a fundamental part of salvage law known as “no cure-no pay.” Even when jobs go right, there’s a risk that the vessel owners’ insurance companies will try to fight reimbursement.
“To get paid, it’s a game every time,” said Parker. “Basically, the only way to make it work is you have a relationship with (insurance companies), and that takes a lot of work. It takes some years to have a relationship with the people where they can see a long track record of success.”
In the past, Parker has been stiffed on jobs — he estimates having lost tens of thousands of dollars over the years — when vessel owners didn’t have proper insurance or the cash to pay the cost. For him, it never made sense to go to court because a jury trial might run more than the job itself.
A 45-foot power boat got stuck on the reef near Lahaina Harbor last week. (Marina Riker/Civil Beat/2023)
Instead, Parker has focused on the surest way to get reimbursed — by being vetted ahead of time by an insurance company so that, as soon as a wreck happens, the insurance company sends him to respond.
In the wake of the grounding at Honolua Bay, that’s been a big focus for Maui County officials: Pushing reforms to prevent vessel groundings and ensuring that, when they are stuck, the situation can be addressed quickly, before it worsens or fuel spills into the sea.
“Many folks have reached out about these private boats wrecked at Kihei, Lahaina and Mala,” council member Tamara Paltin, of West Maui, said in a statement on Facebook last week. “We are reaching out to the authorities, this is part of the systemic changes we are seeking because practically every Kona storm there’s boats breaking their mooring and it is unacceptable.”
Elected officials and local mariners agree that the solutions are multifold. On the front end, they say harbor officials and DLNR need to step up enforcement to ensure that boats have proper insurance and are legally moored with the right equipment.
With the looming threat of worsening storms as the climate changes, some Maui residents worry that groundings will increase in the years to come. At the same time, as the superyacht industry has exploded across the globe, some mariners and Maui officials say that special attention needs to be paid to the large boats that have the potential to cause even more damage.
And since most of the marine salvage companies and their resources are on Oahu, Maui officials are exploring ways to buy a towing vessel to be housed on the Valley Isle or at least put on retainer private companies contracted to respond to shipwrecks at a moment’s notice.
But after what happened in Honolua Bay, there’s also a new concern that salvage companies might avoid tough jobs because of the hostility from armchair marine salvage experts who flood social media with criticism. In a statement, the Save Honolua Coalition wrote that a “fear of mob mentality and possible backlash” made it hard to find companies to help free the yacht that crashed outside of one of Maui’s most beloved marine sanctuaries.
“I took a huge risk, and there’s all this backlash,” said Randy Cates, the owner of Visionary Marine, the company hired to haul the Nakoa from Honolua Bay. “Is it really worth it?”
“I’m worried about operating in an environment where nobody wants to do the work,” he added.
In West Maui, it’s common for boats to break from their moorings and run aground during Kona storms. (Marina Riker/Civil Beat/2023)
Cates has been in the business for decades, and these days he only works on the major salvage jobs, like the one in Honolua Bay. He said only a couple companies in Hawaii have the bandwidth to take on a project of that scale. It was such a massive undertaking that he had to team up with Foss Marine and Sause Brothers to bring in another tractor tug boat and other equipment to get the job done.
Cates said every decision was carefully calculated. Although there were airbags on the inside of the vessel to help it float, some people criticized him for not putting airbags on the outside. However, he said those would’ve needed to be fastened with rope, something that could easily catch on the reef.
Others wondered why he didn’t fill the hull with foam to keep it from sinking once pulled off the rocks. Cates said there simply wasn’t time since the forecast called for a Kona Low to sweep across the island. The last time he undertook a similar job, he said, filling the hull took more than two months.
The holes in the yacht’s hull were so big that “you could drive a golf cart through one of them,” Cates said, adding that the only hope was hauling it into deep water before it spurred a new crisis. And the state wanted it gone as soon as possible.
“We got it out,” Cates said during a recent interview. “And today, there’s 50 foot surf — where would we be right now? If that boat broke apart, it would have debris all the way to Lahaina.”
Courtesy of Honolulu Civil Beat:
Salvaging Shipwrecks Is A Tough Business. Just Ask The Company That Towed The Maui Yacht
The crashed vessel in Honolua and a wave of groundings during last week's storms put a focus on just how hard it is to haul away grounded boats.
By Marina Starleaf Riker
As a fierce storm swept through the islands last week, Maui residents’ social media feeds were filled with photos of all the boats that had been wrecked.
In West Maui, two sailboats were stuck in the shallow water at the north end of Front Street. Less than 2 miles away, a large motorboat was lodged into the reef outside Lahaina Harbor. On the other side of the island, another watercraft crashed onto the beach in north Kihei.
It’s not uncommon for boats to wash ashore in bad weather on Maui. But last week’s wave of groundings drew more attention, having occurred days after a marine salvaging company had finally hauled away a luxury yacht that crashed outside of one of Maui’s most beloved marine sanctuaries.
Because of its sheer mass and the location where it ran aground on the rocky coastline at Honolua Bay, the high-profile effort to free the 94-foot, 120-ton yacht put a spotlight on the marine salvage industry — and the challenges facing the people tasked with recovering wrecked ships.
Marine salvage operations often come with a dangerous combination of waves, wind, reefs, rocks and slippery vessels weighing thousands of pounds that are constantly being jostled around. Then, even after salvors succeed in freeing them, complications can arise when trying to get insurance companies to cover the cost — or waiting on boat owners or the state government to pay up when that doesn’t happen.
Hawaii also has a limited number of marine salvage companies, and most of them are located on Oahu.
“I, too, didn’t appreciate how difficult this was,” Dawn Chang, who heads the state Department of Land and Natural Resources, said in a video statement after the yacht was finally hauled away from Honolua Bay on March 5.
The agency struggled to find a company with the experience and equipment to take on one of the most logistically challenging and politically charged marine salvage jobs in recent Hawaii history.
High Risk Operations
In general, boat owners are responsible for paying to clear wrecked vessels, but the DLNR may intervene to expedite the process, as it did in the case of the yacht.DLNR hired the Oahu-based Visionary Marine company for $460,000 to haul away the yacht operated by Noelani Yacht Charters. The owner of the company, Jim Jones, has said that he plans to pay the state back. The government also has warned it will “aggressively pursue” the payment. After two weeks on the reef, the ship was scuttled after taking on water during the tow.
A luxury yacht ran aground on Maui on Feb. 20. It was freed March 5. (Courtesy: DLNR/2023)
Because of the physically — and financially — volatile nature of the job, the industry is a tough one to make it in.
Michael Parker, who runs Oahu-based Parker Marine Towing and Salvage, which often responds to wrecks on Maui, said he has been working in the industry for decades and is acutely aware of the hardships that come with it.
When jobs start, there are the dangers that come with working underwater, often in surf zones where boats crash. It also requires getting your timing to free a ship just right; otherwise the tides, wind and waves can stand in the way of success.
“I’ve only gotten hurt once, when I ripped my thumb off,” Parker said. “I’ve been doing it my lifetime … so more than 1,000 wrecks. I expected to get hurt sometime.”
He also cited financial uncertainties, saying salvors risk not getting “paid a dime” even after spending hours on a job if they aren’t able to haul a ship away, thanks to a fundamental part of salvage law known as “no cure-no pay.” Even when jobs go right, there’s a risk that the vessel owners’ insurance companies will try to fight reimbursement.
“To get paid, it’s a game every time,” said Parker. “Basically, the only way to make it work is you have a relationship with (insurance companies), and that takes a lot of work. It takes some years to have a relationship with the people where they can see a long track record of success.”
In the past, Parker has been stiffed on jobs — he estimates having lost tens of thousands of dollars over the years — when vessel owners didn’t have proper insurance or the cash to pay the cost. For him, it never made sense to go to court because a jury trial might run more than the job itself.
Instead, Parker has focused on the surest way to get reimbursed — by being vetted ahead of time by an insurance company so that, as soon as a wreck happens, the insurance company sends him to respond.
‘Is It Really Worth It?’
In marine salvage, timing is key. If a boat runs aground at a high tide, for example, pulling it out within hours can save days worth of struggles and damage to the vessel when the tide goes out.In the wake of the grounding at Honolua Bay, that’s been a big focus for Maui County officials: Pushing reforms to prevent vessel groundings and ensuring that, when they are stuck, the situation can be addressed quickly, before it worsens or fuel spills into the sea.
“Many folks have reached out about these private boats wrecked at Kihei, Lahaina and Mala,” council member Tamara Paltin, of West Maui, said in a statement on Facebook last week. “We are reaching out to the authorities, this is part of the systemic changes we are seeking because practically every Kona storm there’s boats breaking their mooring and it is unacceptable.”
Elected officials and local mariners agree that the solutions are multifold. On the front end, they say harbor officials and DLNR need to step up enforcement to ensure that boats have proper insurance and are legally moored with the right equipment.
With the looming threat of worsening storms as the climate changes, some Maui residents worry that groundings will increase in the years to come. At the same time, as the superyacht industry has exploded across the globe, some mariners and Maui officials say that special attention needs to be paid to the large boats that have the potential to cause even more damage.
And since most of the marine salvage companies and their resources are on Oahu, Maui officials are exploring ways to buy a towing vessel to be housed on the Valley Isle or at least put on retainer private companies contracted to respond to shipwrecks at a moment’s notice.
But after what happened in Honolua Bay, there’s also a new concern that salvage companies might avoid tough jobs because of the hostility from armchair marine salvage experts who flood social media with criticism. In a statement, the Save Honolua Coalition wrote that a “fear of mob mentality and possible backlash” made it hard to find companies to help free the yacht that crashed outside of one of Maui’s most beloved marine sanctuaries.
“I took a huge risk, and there’s all this backlash,” said Randy Cates, the owner of Visionary Marine, the company hired to haul the Nakoa from Honolua Bay. “Is it really worth it?”
“I’m worried about operating in an environment where nobody wants to do the work,” he added.
Cates has been in the business for decades, and these days he only works on the major salvage jobs, like the one in Honolua Bay. He said only a couple companies in Hawaii have the bandwidth to take on a project of that scale. It was such a massive undertaking that he had to team up with Foss Marine and Sause Brothers to bring in another tractor tug boat and other equipment to get the job done.
Cates said every decision was carefully calculated. Although there were airbags on the inside of the vessel to help it float, some people criticized him for not putting airbags on the outside. However, he said those would’ve needed to be fastened with rope, something that could easily catch on the reef.
Others wondered why he didn’t fill the hull with foam to keep it from sinking once pulled off the rocks. Cates said there simply wasn’t time since the forecast called for a Kona Low to sweep across the island. The last time he undertook a similar job, he said, filling the hull took more than two months.
The holes in the yacht’s hull were so big that “you could drive a golf cart through one of them,” Cates said, adding that the only hope was hauling it into deep water before it spurred a new crisis. And the state wanted it gone as soon as possible.
“We got it out,” Cates said during a recent interview. “And today, there’s 50 foot surf — where would we be right now? If that boat broke apart, it would have debris all the way to Lahaina.”
