Stop or keep Racing?

[JohnMB]

So this comes from a rules thread, the OP posed a rules question that includes a boat where the sailor is recuperating after righting a capsize.
@Livia took the view that the other boats should have stopped and stood by to render assistance. I had read the description differently and had not considered that there was a need to stop racing, but the disagreement was based on different readings of the description rather than a proper discussion of when its appropriate to stop racing, so here goes.



I'm going to start with keelboats because that's what I'm most used to. Times to stop racing:

• Broken gear (Mast boom etc) If I'm nearest boat I'll stop and check no-one is injured, if I'm not the nearest boat I'll probably keep going. (with markset bots even if not nearest boat I would probably stand by if close to the incident).
• Boat sinking... well obviously
• Man overboard close by in heavy conditions; if someones been dropped on a DW leg, and their boat is not obvioulsy under control, I would douse the kite immediatly to be ready to pick up the MoB.

Times to keep watch but not stop racing (?):

• knockdowns (check they pop back up with everyone on board)
• man overboard; depends on the weather, but if the boat is in control and circling to pick up just keep out of the way.
• lots of shouting; check why but if the boat is full of people shouting and waving arms I would want to know why and be ready to help if needed.

Any other thoughts?

 

[eastern motors]

MoB in keel boat racing I would stop unless it's calm and you can see the MoB is wearing a life jacket.

 

[JohnMB]

MoB in keel boat racing I would stop unless it's calm and you can see the MoB is wearing a life jacket.

I'm not sure; my experience is mainly in solings, in a typical MoB situation we are either heading toward the MoB boat or away from them.
If heading toward we keep going and monitor, if heading away we'll see who is closest, and if its us whoever is not trimming would monitor and update. To date we haven't stopped. And when Ive been the MoB people haven't stopped for me, but I've generally not thought they should.

One one occasion my hobble line broke as we tacked on the layline to the top mark, so I'm swimming as the fleet charges up the layline. My skipper circles and picks me up. If the boats at the mark turned around to check in it would have been chaos.

 

[TUBBY]

Like most things in life, it depends.

Last time I stopped racing it was for a downed plane, not something we had a plan prepared for.

 

[kent_island_sailor]

I am missing some variables here.
Most races that have capsizing boats have a safety boat or two running around and usually are near shore. If I saw a person having problems and a RIB headed their way that was reasonably close, I would probably keep on going.
If someone was in obvious distress and no help was close, I surely would go assist. I would not necessarily expect the whole fleet to quit racing.

 

[JohnMB]

I am missing some variables here.
Most races that have capsizing boats have a safety boat or two running around and usually are near shore. If I saw a person having problems and a RIB headed their way that was reasonably close, I would probably keep on going.
If someone was in obvious distress and no help was close, I surely would go assist. I would not necessarily expect the whole fleet to quit racing.

I'm think more about this being exploring the variables.
I would definitely agree that having a safety boat present makes a big difference.

 

[maxstaylock]

Is there a boat/sailor that needs help?
Are you able to help?

If answer to both questions is yes, then please, suspend racing and help.

If you are unsure about either question, but going nearer to the suspect boat doesn't take you too much out of your way, go towards them until you are in a position to answer both questions.

It's not just when racing, we are all duty bound to assist anyone that requires assistance on the water, whenever we are in a position to render assistance, even if the only way you can practicably help is to raise the alarm. That said, also, do no harm. Don't run a sailor over, sometimes standing by and raising the alarm is the best help you can offer.

 

[kent_island_sailor]

I'm think more about this being exploring the variables.
I would definitely agree that having a safety boat present makes a big difference.

I can't see ANY circumstance that puts winning a race ahead of helping someone in distress, fellow competitor or not.
The variables all concern if they need your help. Some junior races have so many coach boats around the biggest issue might be a traffic jam

 

[ryley]

There is a story about a fellow racing out of a respected YC in Maine who, on a downwind leg, lost a crew overboard. He didn't stop to pick him up because he "knew" one of the boats behind would. His actions got his membership revoked at the YC. That didn't stop him from becoming Commodore of PHRF NE though. If I were his abandoned crew, I'd have kicked him in the nuts after the race.

 

[dogwatch]

As far as dinghies go, if conditions are severe enough for a boat to be unable to right themselves, it is unlikely another dinghy could help. As a sometime safety boat driver, there's normally a lot more I can do to help than another competitor. I am not saying there are no exceptions but usually that is the case.

In a keelboat, I have stood by in case needed to help another boat in trouble as did several other boats, both competitors and another boat that was in the area. They were being repeatedly knocked down and were clearly not in control. After some time, the crew ended up swimming away from the sinking boat. In the end I wasn't needed but it was certainly right not to simply sail on. Imagine hearing later than someone had drowned but you'd prioritised a finish and an early beer.

 

[JohnMB]

I can't see ANY circumstance that puts winning a race ahead of helping someone in distress, fellow competitor or not.

Agreed but that's a nice broad statement of policy.
I'm more interested in how you translate that into action.

What are people experiences of this?
I have been fortunate that I have never been in a situation where things went badly wrong.

I have seen boats get into trouble and get back out of it with no need to take more action than checking they were ok. (and in that process typically we concentrated on the incident rather than on boat speed but we kept going)
I've stopped racing to check in on a windsurfer (not racing but in the area) that appeared to be in trouble (unable to uphaul for way longer that seemed reasonable and much further offshore than appeared reasonable for their competence)

But the question is how do you decide if someone is in distress, rather than just dealing with a situation as normal. Is it just gut feel?

For example downwind, if someone gets knocked down in a soling I typically expect them to pop back up in a few seconds with everyone on board...... if I'm watching an experienced crew getting knocked down I'm still racing, if it's an inexperienced crew and they don't pop back up pretty fast, I'm probably dousing the kite. I i see a boat getting repeatably knocked down, and not dousing their kite, I'm probably heading their way and dousing my kite to see if they need assistance.


factors that matter:

• Experience level of the crew
• Do they seem to be in control
• Weather
• Presence of a safety boat
• Presence of a power boat who can help (mark-set, coach, spectator etc.)
• Can I see all the crew members
• Are they all wearing PFD's
• Equipment damage

 

[kent_island_sailor]

There is a story about a fellow racing out of a respected YC in Maine who, on a downwind leg, lost a crew overboard. He didn't stop to pick him up because he "knew" one of the boats behind would. His actions got his membership revoked at the YC. That didn't stop him from becoming Commodore of PHRF NE though. If I were his abandoned crew, I'd have kicked him in the nuts after the race.

It would also stop him from finishing the race, anyone could protest him out for not finishing with the same number of crew you started with.

 

[Foredeck Shuffle]

Apologies to anyone above if I'm repeating. The various courses I've taken break it down into a few simple observations, from there you can get into the pedantry of the specific incident.

• Is any person at risk such as a MOB or injured person on deck?
• Is a boat at risk such as the rig is down, some type of hull damage including keel/rudder, fire, lack of steerage?
• Is the crew actively requesting external assistance?

If the answer is yes to any of the above, stand by and radio or yell to give your intention to assist or stand by. Ascertain if the crew is able to manage the situation and if they are unsuccessfully attempting to call for additional help, relay their need to the RC and if necessary the local authorities if you are unable to communicate with the RC.

The details make this more interesting such as flipped over dinghies with people in the water, etc. Most of the time a boat of any size self recovers. But make your decision based on what could be the worst case scenario playing out in front of you and be ready. It's just a race and you'll not regret standing by and not rendering assistance because it was deemed unnecessary. If your assistance was needed and something bad happens after you sail on, you will never forget it and neither will anyone else.

@JohnMB was looking for specifics. It's difficult. You cannot know someones skills or the condition of their vessel. Also depending on the situation you could need to do a bit of work before being able to render assistance such as dropping and securing sails, best to start that process while finding out if your help is needed.. But I think that is just details, stick to the three observations and move from there.

 

[sailwriter]

This subject is personal for me. I spent years as the safety boat, a 17' Whaler, at the St. Petersburg Yacht Club, Florida. With all of the regattas, there were obviously some 'interesting' situations.
Once, while standing by a capsized Snipe, I saw another Snipe about a quarter mile away with the skipper standing and waving his arms. I let the first boat know I was heading away, with an acknowledgement from her. On the way to the other Snipe, I saw a just a hand waving from a crew under water. The young man had fallen overboard with heavy weather gear and no life jacket. I grabbed his hand and delivered him back to the 'Old Man' on the Snipe. He wore a life jacket thereafter. Other Snipes were around. But apparently, nobody noticed the crisis.
A sailor got separated from his capsized A-Cat. I picked him up and delivered to the upper daggerboard. He righted the boat, but was too tired to climb aboard. A little lift by the belt did it. There were plenty of Race Committee boats and power boat spectators around, but they were too big to help.
OK, to the point: I was allowed to race one regatta a year at SPYC, since I was an employee. I raced my International 10 Square Meter Canoe. Capsized on the downwind leg. Not unusual in these boats, but it zipped away from me on its side. Obviously, the other IC's could be of no help. But, remember, I was the usual Safety Boat guy. I spent 20+ minutes swimming after that boat, with life jacket inhibiting my speed. Nobody missed me until I'd finished. "Thought you had gone in." Dave Ellis, retired

 

[Irrational 14]

There is a story about a fellow racing out of a respected YC in Maine who, on a downwind leg, lost a crew overboard. He didn't stop to pick him up because he "knew" one of the boats behind would. His actions got his membership revoked at the YC. That didn't stop him from becoming Commodore of PHRF NE though. If I were his abandoned crew, I'd have kicked him in the nuts after the race.

WOW. No Words.

 

[JohnMB]

In a keelboat, I have stood by in case needed to help another boat in trouble, as did several other boats, competitors and another boat that was in the area. In the end I wasn't needed but it was certainly right not to simply sail on. Imagine hearing later than someone had drowned but you'd prioritised a finish and an early beer.

I'm still digging into details,
On that occasion how did you determine that they were in trouble?
I think we all agree that we should not prioritize a finish and beer over the safety of a fellow sailor.

Another specific:
Sailing Norfolk one design dinghy's, gusty day (7-15 ish) we are heading for the top mark, one of the boats that on their way back downstream (on port) rounds up and t-bones our nearest competitor. No-one actually goes in the water.

I luff up to slow the boat, make sure I'm clear of other downwind sailors, and check no-ones in the water. Check no-one is injured. Verbal hails from all sailors. All looks ok so we carry on. maybe slowed for ~10 seconds total.
To me this seems about the right response. Safety boat was close by, we got a verbal OK from all 4 sailors involved everyone in pdf's, but it was a cold day, on a warm summers day we might not have slowed, (Norfolks do not accelerate well ). Just watched to make sure everyone was safe.

 

[Foredeck Shuffle]

One last comment. I've served on PC's and we have never turned down a request for redress from a boat that rendered assistance.

I like that the rules we sail by, perhaps unspoken, or perhaps there are laws that require it, that includes the priority to render assistance. I'll take a DNF and help another boat just so that I get the same when I might need it. Can't fix dead.

 

[JohnMB]

Apologies to anyone above if I'm repeating. The various courses I've taken break it down into a few simple observations, from there you can get into the pedantry of the specific incident.

• Is any person at risk such as a MOB or injured person on deck?
• Is a boat at risk such as the rig is down, some type of hull damage including keel/rudder, fire, lack of steerage?
• Is the crew actively requesting external assistance?

I think this is a good checklist,
In a class where you have been sailing for a while you can get pretty good and telling the difference between a racing issue and distress. But occasionally we should all re calibrate to make sure we are not being complacent.

 

[Danceswithoctopus]

RRS Part 1
FUNDAMENTAL RULES
1. SAFETY
1.1. Helping Those in Danger
A boat, competitor or support person shall give all possible help to any person or vessel in danger.

 

[JohnMB]

There is a story about a fellow racing out of a respected YC in Maine who, on a downwind leg, lost a crew overboard. He didn't stop to pick him up because he "knew" one of the boats behind would. His actions got his membership revoked at the YC. That didn't stop him from becoming Commodore of PHRF NE though. If I were his abandoned crew, I'd have kicked him in the nuts after the race.

This is deeply fucked up and inexcusable.
I know of skippers who have made similar stupid decisions. In one instance finishing a race after the foredeck was concussed having the pole dropped on his head. I cant believe no-one in the crew overrode the idiot.

Stories like this help remind us what to do not to do, and help inform our future decisions.
I would like to think I will never be the stupid sailor in the story, but I know that I have made bad decisions in the heat of the moment in the past. To me the way to ensure I don't in the future is to think through situations and review what I might do differently.

RRS Part 1
FUNDAMENTAL RULES
1. SAFETY
1.1. Helping Those in Danger
A boat, competitor or support person shall give all possible help to any person or vessel in danger.

This of course is remarkably unhelpful, but thank you captain obvious. The question is not whether to give assistance to any person of vessel in danger, but how we determine if a person or vessel is in danger, and what the best action to help is.