Stop or keep Racing?

[JohnMB]

This subject is personal for me. I spent years as the safety boat, a 17' Whaler, at the St. Petersburg Yacht Club, Florida. With all of the regattas, there were obviously some 'interesting' situations.
Once, while standing by a capsized Snipe, I saw another Snipe about a quarter mile away with the skipper standing and waving his arms. I let the first boat know I was heading away, with an acknowledgement from her. On the way to the other Snipe, I saw a just a hand waving from a crew under water. The young man had fallen overboard with heavy weather gear and no life jacket. I grabbed his hand and delivered him back to the 'Old Man' on the Snipe. He wore a life jacket thereafter. Other Snipes were around. But apparently, nobody noticed the crisis.

This is a great example, as a safety boat driver being able to understand that the capsized boat close by was in less danger than the boat 1/4 mile away with the skipper waving their hands is a critical skill. Feeds right back into Foredeck Shuffle's checklist of crew actively asking for help.

 

[Danceswithoctopus]

This of course is remarkably unhelpful, but thank you captain obvious. The question is not whether to give assistance to any person of vessel in danger, but how we determine if a person or vessel is in danger, and what the best action to help is.

It's really pretty simple; it's not your choice. If there's a body in the water, render assistance or stand by to assist. You're making it more difficult than it needs to be. It's like reefing: if you think you might should aught to help, you are obligated to do so.

Your race isn't important.

Furthermore, I would submit that threads like this that introduce doubt towards the obligation to render assistance to a vessel in distress also make the sport less safe.

Oh, and FTR, it's Colonel Obvious.

 

[JohnMB]

It's really pretty simple; it's not your choice. If there's a body in the water, render assistance or stand by to assist. You're making it more difficult than it needs to be. It's like reefing: if you think you might should aught to help, you are obligated to do so.

Your race isn't important.

Furthermore, I would submit that threads like this that introduce doubt towards the obligation to render assistance to a vessel in distress also make the sport less safe.

Oh, and FTR, it's Colonel Obvious.

There is no doubt about the obligation to render assistance.
There are questions about when and I would argue that discussing these questions helps us make better decisions not worse.

If you think that every time a body goes in the water (eg if laser capsizes) all the boats on the course should stop racing and go help I think you are kidding yourself, and massively oversimplifying. Sailwriter gives a great example of an instance where it made more sense to leave the capsized boat (presumable with a body still in the water) to investigate another boat that was signalling it was in distress.

I would tend to agree that if you think you mightneed to help you should is also a good way to judge this.

 

[Grande Mastere Dreade]

There is a story about a fellow racing out of a respected YC in Maine who, on a downwind leg, lost a crew overboard. He didn't stop to pick him up because he "knew" one of the boats behind would. His actions got his membership revoked at the YC. That didn't stop him from becoming Commodore of PHRF NE though. If I were his abandoned crew, I'd have kicked him in the nuts after the race.

way back when, my sister in jr sailing program , crewing on a sunfish.. during a race she fell off the boat and told the kid still on the boat to keep going.. needless to say the instructors were not pleased..

 

[Grande Mastere Dreade]

I was the windward boat in the other thread, i've had 15+ years at our club being on RC / rescue / mark boats... i know what a distressed sailor looks like.. and when it's necessary to render help..
it's also why i carry a vhf radio on a small lake, to get the necessary people involved .. our RC volunteers are pretty damn good at what they do when on a rescue boat...

 

[dogwatch]

I'm still digging into details,

I've PM'd you.

 

[TJSoCal]

Hopefully helpful to note:

• RRS 41(a) allows a boat to accept help for a crew member who is in danger. It's commonly accepted that a person in the water from a capsized boat is by definition "in danger". This is important since some capsized sailors may try to decline help because they think it means they have to retire from the race. It doesn't - they can accept help from any source to right the boat and get back onboard and then can continue racing.
• Giving help to a boat or crew in danger is one of the acceptable reasons for requesting redress (RRS 62.1(c)). So a boat rendering assistance may request and receive redress for the time spent giving help. If you do that it's a good idea to take note of your position in the race at the time and how much time you spend giving help before you go back to racing so the PC has something to go on when they have to figure out what redress is fair.

 

[Livia]

Posted on the other thread
"Actually, had exact situation, bowman on second placed boat falls out right at the windward mark on a windy day and 16 Etchells sailed right overt the top of him.
And I mean right over the top, has to dive under oncoming boats.
When asked about their actions later all said not our problem, we could see the 2nd place boat circling back behind the other 14 boats.
Nobody sees that as wrong"

 

[Livia]

Just going to throw in "age" here as well as water temp.

 

[Extra Cheese]

This of course is remarkably unhelpful, but thank you captain obvious. The question is not whether to give assistance to any person of vessel in danger, but how we determine if a person or vessel is in danger, and what the best action to help is.

Well Specialist Dipshit, "danger" is defined by Merriam Websters as:
exposure or liability to injury, pain, harm, or loss

So pretty much every example in this thread would be covered by RRS 1 and requires both support persons and competitors to give help.

And as to your question "what the best action to help is" the RULES are very clear "shall give all possible help..."

So let's keep this simple if someone is exposed to harm, you are REQUIRED to do EVERYTHING you can. So yes, if a person in a large laser fleet capsizes, you are REQUIRED to render assistance if they are exposed to harm, no ifs ands, or buts.

Furthermore, Case 20 says: "A boat in a position to help another that may be in danger is bound to do so. It is not relevant that a protest committee later decides that there was, in fact, no danger or that help was not requested. B is entitled to redress"

There are no "factors" that go into your "decision" if you are in a position to help you do, and you give ALL possible help.

Is that clear enough?

 

[JohnMB]

Well Specialist Dipshit, "danger" is defined by Merriam Websters as:
exposure or liability to injury, pain, harm, or loss

So pretty much every example in this thread would be covered by RRS 1 and requires both support persons and competitors to give help.

And as to your question "what the best action to help is" the RULES are very clear "shall give all possible help..."

So let's keep this simple if someone is exposed to harm, you are REQUIRED to do EVERYTHING you can. So yes, if a person in a large laser fleet capsizes, you are REQUIRED to render assistance if they are exposed to harm, no ifs ands, or buts.

Furthermore, Case 20 says: "A boat in a position to help another that may be in danger is bound to do so. It is not relevant that a protest committee later decides that there was, in fact, no danger or that help was not requested. B is entitled to redress"

There are no "factors" that go into your "decision" if you are in a position to help you do, and you give ALL possible help.

Is that clear enough?

No really because it really say much.
Obviously you help is someone who is in danger, obviously you give whatever help is required.
Less obvious is how to tell if someone is in danger quickly and effectively
Less obvious is what help is most useful in a give situation.

Do you have an specific examples where you stopped racing to help someone, and what made you decide to do it?
Do you have any examples where you saw a knockdown or MoB and did not immediately take action?

Case20 is a nice example, the PC took the view that A did not need help and gave pretty decent reasons. The appeal overruled on the grounds that even though there may not have been any danger B was still entitled to redress, because as long as B concluded there might be a danger she was obliged to go help.
I'm not so sure it supports the idea that B was obliged to give assistance if she had concluded that A was not in danger. And based on the PC's findings she could reasonably have reached that conclusion. (Note the appeal did not disagree with the PC's assessment of danger, only on that application to redress.)


I'm not trying to be a dick here I'm genuinely interested,
Why did the etchells sailors in livias example not only not do anything but actually sail over the MoB?
Why did the soling sailors in my example sail around me and leave my skipper space and time to pick me up without actually stopping? (were they wrong not to stop? personally I don't think so)

We all know that laser sailors typically are not going to stop for a capsized boat, unless there is some additional sign of distress. I think that's reasonable and proportionate, but that's partly because laser sailors are used to frequent capsizes, and will generally be racing with a safety boat who is better able to assist.

 

[knh555]

No really because it really say much.
Obviously you help is someone who is in danger, obviously you give whatever help is required.
Less obvious is how to tell if someone is in danger quickly and effectively
Less obvious is what help is most useful in a give situation.

Do you have an specific examples where you stopped racing to help someone, and what made you decide to do it?
Do you have any examples where you saw a knockdown or MoB and did not immediately take action?

I'm not trying to be a dick here I'm genuinely interested,
Why did the etchells sailors in livias example not only not do anything but actually sail over the MoB?
Why did the soling sailors in my example sail around me and leave my skipper space and time to pick me up without actually stopping? (were they wrong not to stop? personally I don't think so)

We all know that laser sailors typically are not going to stop for a capsized boat, unless there is some additional sign of distress. I think that's reasonable and proportionate, but that's partly because laser sailors are used to frequent capsizes, and will generally be racing with a safety boat who is better able to assist.

Part of it is obvilously the boats and how they're sailed. Lasers aren't Etchells and Solings, but those last two are certainly pretty damn similar. But given these anecdotes, the class or fleet culture appears to be fundamentally different between two very similar one-designs. I think I've read about another Etchells crew left in a dangerous situation recently.

A while back crewing in a Star regatta going downwind, I witnessed the crew in the boat behind us go overboard in about 10 knots of wind and 2 ft waves. However, I also knew the crew was wearing a PFD and the skipper is a solid sailor. Since I was facing back, I grabbed the radio to report it to RC and trained my eyes on the MOB and immediately informed my skipper. The other boat's skipper also immediately got his whisker pole down and started spinning around to retrieve the lost crew successfully. The whole time, my skipper and I were discussing going back to render assistance but determined it wasn't necessary while continuing to monitor his successful retrieval of his crew. However, we weren't too far away and were ready and able to do so as our judgement required. And judgement is the answer to the question of determining if someone's in danger. That's all there is and it's possible a PC judges your actions differently if you prioritize your race over your fellow sailors' safety. That's boat racing.

I know this is a bit tangential to the OPs question, but this is why, for any class that sails out in open water, I don't think VHF radios should be banned. Years ago, the Star class had its own incident with a sailor in the water for 45 minutes while the races just kept going. That's why we allow VHF now. I'd like to see that allowed in other small(er) boat classes as well, especially when you're at a venue with long sails in and out where it's even harder for to track if any sailors are in distress.

 

[Wess]

If you are wondering if you should stop… then you should stop!

 

[Extra Cheese]

We all know that laser sailors typically are not going to stop for a capsized boat, unless there is some additional sign of distress. I think that's reasonable and proportionate, but that's partly because laser sailors are used to frequent capsizes, and will generally be racing with a safety boat who is better able to assist.

I was almost tempted to try and engage until I got to the part about "who is better able to assist."

Let's try this again:

A boat, competitor or support person shall give all possible help to any person or vessel in danger.

Where does it say anything about "better able to assist" or "support boats" or any of the other nonsense you are spewing?

I am sick and tired of people trying to validate their horrific behavior.

If you think another competitor might be in danger, you stop, you render aid, or you stand by while others do. It really is just that simple.

 

[FlyingCircus2]

1. Can you help without becoming a second victim?

2. Can you help without getting in the way of better help (chase boat)?

3. How far away is the shore? What's eta to safety?

4. Are you winning, amirite?

 

[JohnMB]

I was almost tempted to try and engage until I got to the part about "who is better able to assist."

Let's try this again:

A boat, competitor or support person shall give all possible help to any person or vessel in danger.

Where does it say anything about "better able to assist" or "support boats" or any of the other nonsense you are spewing?

I am sick and tired of people trying to validate their horrific behavior.

If you think another competitor might be in danger, you stop, you render aid, or you stand by while others do. It really is just that simple.

I have no disagreement with your last statement.
The question is how YOU personally make the decision that a person is in danger and needs your support.
Seriously do you believe that in laser regattas one capsize means everyone stops and go's to check in on the capsized boat. and if so why?


Case 20 is a great example:

The protest committee considered several factors in its decision. First, A's helmsman was a highly experienced sailor. Secondly, the wind was light, and the tide was rising and would shortly have lifted the mast free. Thirdly, she did not ask for help; it was offered. Therefore, since neither boat nor crew was in danger,

It is notable that the appeals board did not overturn this, they simply said that as long as B thought A might be in danger B had to give assistance and was entitled to redress.
B was also entitled to reach he same conclusion as the PC did and not give assistance.
What B was not allowed to do was decide A needed assistance an not give it.

reasonable people can have a discussion about what constitutes a person or vessel in danger.

And as for 'is better able to assist' if I'm in a small dinghy in marginal conditions, and boats are capsizing all around me, the safest thing I can do is make sure I don't join them and further distract the safety boat. So yes I'm throwing that in the mix.

I've been in situations where I'm working to help a capsized boat while in a small boat, as soon as the safety boat was able to get there I got the hell out of the way. If the safety boat had been closer I would never have approached them in the first place in case I tipped in as well.

 

[Danceswithoctopus]

1. Can you help without becoming a second victim?

2. Can you help without getting in the way of better help (chase boat)?

3. How far away is the shore? What's eta to safety?

4. Are you winning, amirite?

I've assisted a number of boats in distress over the years. There's even a thread buried here in some deep archive that documents and discusses a MOB recovery that the boat I was crewing aboard performed some 10-15 years back. We were in the lead in the race and the series (buoys, leadmines). Another boat, in another fleet, lost a crew member overboard and we saw it. Without hesitation we stopped racing and went to that MOB's aid, plucked him out of the water (while a few other competitors stood by) and took him home (not just to the dock, but escorted him to his home--not that this was required. It was the right thing to do at the time). This resulted in us retiring from that and the rest of the races that day.

There were two 'safety' boats. Neither got there before we did.

As a result, we didn't win the race nor the series (and redress in that circumstance wouldn't have allowed us to win. Nor should it have). But the YC recognized our contribution and gave us a trophy anyway. A very nice gesture on their part, as was the ovation we received when the trophy was presented to the skipper.

So, no, winning has nothing to do with it. Nor does hesitation. Nor does some fucking checklist someone compiled after reading a thread on a sailing site.

If another mariner is in distress, you render aid. This isn't limited to competitors.

 

[Extra Cheese]

I have no disagreement with your last statement.
The question is how YOU personally make the decision that a person is in danger and needs your support.
Seriously do you believe that in laser regattas one capsize means everyone stops and go's to check in on the capsized boat. and if so why?

For the 2nd time:
Danger=exposure to harm or injury

Are you seriously asking "why" we put safety before finishing a race?

Case 20 is a great example:

It is notable that the appeals board did not overturn this, they simply said that as long as B thought A might be in danger B had to give assistance and was entitled to redress.
B was also entitled to reach he same conclusion as the PC did and not give assistance.
What B was not allowed to do was decide A needed assistance an not give it.

reasonable people can have a discussion about what constitutes a person or vessel in danger.

Reading is fundamental, "B's appeal is upheld." this means the appeals committee did in fact "overturn" the protest committee's decision.

More germane to the issue at hand is the fact they also said the following: (which you seem to not be able to comprehend)
A boat in a position to help another that may be in danger is bound to do so.

Note the use of the word "may"

So if a boat might be in trouble, and you might be able to help, you stop and do everything you can to help.

Is that simple enough for you?

 

[JohnMB]

Reading is fundamental, "B's appeal is upheld." this means the appeals committee did in fact "overturn" the protest committee's decision.

Yes reading is fundamental , they (correctly ) stated that the PCs finding that there was no danger was irrelevant not that it was wrong.

It is not relevant that a protest committee later decides that there was, in fact, no danger or that help was not requested.

Let's be clear

• I do not believe that a capsized laser is automatically in danger. do you?
• I have never asked why we put safety before finishing a race, I do not personally think that having all the competitors in a laser race stop and head over to a capsized boat is a good move for safety. I asked if you think the should and if so why do you think they should.
• I have never at any time stated that if you think a boat might be in danger you should not act
• I have asked several times how you evaluate whether a boat is in danger,
• I have stated with example some of the things that I consider

 

[Recidivist]

"Actually, had exact situation, bowman on second placed boat falls out right at the windward mark on a windy day and 16 Etchells sailed right overt the top of him.
And I mean right over the top, has to dive under oncoming boats.
...

When I started sailing, dinosaurs roamed the Earth. One such was my skipper, who insisted that, as bowman on his Dragon, I wear a life-jacket in case I fell overboard. I refused on the grounds that, if I fell overboard, I would need to be able to dive under oncoming boats to avoid being hit.
Fortunately, it never happened.

During my career we have stopped racing a number of times to render assistance or stand-by in case assistance was required - it was never a difficult decision.

In a windy race many years ago, we spotted an upturned trailer sailer (not a competitor, just day-sailing). We dropped our kite and went to investigate. The crew were tired, cold and too far from shore to swim. They didn't have pfds. We tied together as many lines as we could as a tether and did a close pass - I jumped in with life-jackets and swam to the upturned boat (actually it took a couple of passes). We retrieved 2 of the crew and another competitor picked up the other 2. They were hypothermic and wouldn't have made it had we not seen them low in the water.

In a recent incident (far away, but involving one of my cousins), crew from nearby boats leapt into the water to assist when they saw a body go overboard from another boat. It was later determined that the MOB was dead before he hit the water, but the swimmers did everything they could. That is an important part of being a sailor IMHO.