Switched to Electric

Bull City

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that's it?  we can't figure a way to encapsulate battery chemistry and isolate it from the normal wetness of a sailboat?  we give up easy.
I was thinking about it some more over my Saturday night Martini (it's Saturday, right?). There are fiberglass boats that have internal lead ballast, i.e. encapsulated in fiberglass. So it's not wet. 

Fine, but what happens after 2 or 3 thousand cycles, and it's time to replace the battery? Perhaps the battery could come in the form of little beads? Or a llquid?

 

chester

Super Anarchist
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I was thinking about it some more over my Saturday night Martini (it's Saturday, right?). There are fiberglass boats that have internal lead ballast, i.e. encapsulated in fiberglass. So it's not wet. 

Fine, but what happens after 2 or 3 thousand cycles, and it's time to replace the battery? Perhaps the battery could come in the form of little beads? Or a llquid?
:p ...i'm better at questios than answers!

 

tenn-tom

New member
There's a conversation on the ePropulsion Facebook group from a guy that owns one of their small Spirit outboards. In an accident, the outboard, with the battery attached, went over the side and spent 5 days on the bottom. After a diver recovered it, he discovered it was still switched on. He dried it out and it ran normally. It was an inland lake so likely freshwater, but still.

I won't go so far as to say this proves anything except this guy was lucky. But maybe a properly sealed battery could be mounted in the bilge and work without issues. 

 

DDW

Super Anarchist
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ePropulsion claims that their battery pack is waterproof, and will float if dropped. I've not been tempted to try with mine. 

 

tenn-tom

New member
ePropulsion claims that their battery pack is waterproof, and will float if dropped. I've not been tempted to try with mine. 
Yes, I had seen that. Interestingly, even their E80 battery, which is what we are using, claims an IP67 rating (immersion up to 1 meter). At nearly 50 kilos it's not going to float though. Like you, I'm not really tempted to test that rating. We built a fiberglass enclosure to keep ours dry.

 

weightless

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I was thinking about it some more over my Saturday night Martini (it's Saturday, right?). There are fiberglass boats that have internal lead ballast, i.e. encapsulated in fiberglass. So it's not wet. 

Fine, but what happens after 2 or 3 thousand cycles, and it's time to replace the battery? Perhaps the battery could come in the form of little beads? Or a llquid?
Great minds think alike. I heard a rumor that when Mr Santrey converted his NY 50' (waterline length), Pleione, to a schooner he added a substantial amount of ballast in the form of batteries from his electric boats. That would have been about 100 years ago now.

 
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johnsonjay17

Member
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I was thinking about it some more over my Saturday night Martini (it's Saturday, right?). There are fiberglass boats that have internal lead ballast, i.e. encapsulated in fiberglass. So it's not wet. 

Fine, but what happens after 2 or 3 thousand cycles, and it's time to replace the battery? Perhaps the battery could come in the form of little beads? Or a llquid?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery

Liquid or Flow batteries might actually be the future for Electric Cars. Basically the liquid is charged and can be then pumped to a collector to create the flow. The theory is you pull into the station and exchange your depleted liquid for charged liquid in a matter of minutes then drive off with a full charge. The depleted liquid is recharged and then pumped into a future car. It also can be scaled up for grid level storage. It is cheap to add capacity because you just add tanks and liquid. MIT just recently made the news by creating a much cheaper fluid than previously thought possible. Weirdly the process does require a pump to move the fluids from the tanks to the collector.

https://energy.mit.edu/news/new-rechargeable-flow-battery-enables-cheaper-large-scale-energy-storage/

JJ

 

socalrider

Super Anarchist
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San Diego CA
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery

Liquid or Flow batteries might actually be the future for Electric Cars. Basically the liquid is charged and can be then pumped to a collector to create the flow. The theory is you pull into the station and exchange your depleted liquid for charged liquid in a matter of minutes then drive off with a full charge. The depleted liquid is recharged and then pumped into a future car. It also can be scaled up for grid level storage. It is cheap to add capacity because you just add tanks and liquid. MIT just recently made the news by creating a much cheaper fluid than previously thought possible. Weirdly the process does require a pump to move the fluids from the tanks to the collector.

https://energy.mit.edu/news/new-rechargeable-flow-battery-enables-cheaper-large-scale-energy-storage/

JJ
No, the argument for flow batteries is typically in long-duration stationary applications (8+hrs of discharge at full rated capacity).  

Car batteries need high energy density (light weight & low volume per unit of energy stored) and high c-rate (power/energy) for bursts of acceleration.  These are the opposite of the characteristics of flow batteries.  

In addition, round trip efficiency for flow batteries is often under 70%, versus over 85% for Li-Ion.  

 

weightless

Super Anarchist
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Liquid or Flow batteries might actually be the future for Electric Cars.
Possibly. They are very interesting but most of the ones I've seen have been aimed at grid storage. They aren't great in terms of specific or volumetric energy density.  Those are disadvantages in vehicles. The MIT presser sounds interesting but I'm not sure keeping fluids separated using laminar flow is vehicle friendly either.

edit: Oh what the google finds ;)

https://scholarworks.iupui.edu/bitstream/handle/1805/23994/Schubert2014Seawater.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

image.png

 
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That was easy! A family I know cruised all thru the Pacific, then up past Japan. They started out across the N pacific heading for Santa Barbera. They got beat up by continuous storms, which leaked down thru the cockpit hatches past the ancient Mercedes diesel. Wiring got wet, batts went dead. They aborted the northern route, headed to HI. Got into the N Pac high & started drifting. The 4 boys, bored silly, decided to start the engine. Took the seagull outboard, swapped the prop for a v belt sheave, took all the belts off the engine to free up the sheave, spliced a very long loop in 3 strand. Hoisted the seagull up on the mizzen stsl halyd, deflected it into line with the diesel, backed off all 4 injectors in the main. Cleaned up/dried out all the wiring. Started the s-gull, hoisted the halyard tight to tension the belt. One kid supplied buckets of water to cool the s-gull, others below. Got the massive flywheel spinning & slowly tightened injectors - got the engine running. Then had to carefully get the 2 alt belts back on the engine/alt & tighten up. After 5 hrs of work, it all worked!!
Awesome, what a great story!

 

Bull City

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Well, I don't pretend to understand very much about the last few posts, but it's encouraging to see progress being made in making electric power more convenient.

 

Ajax

Super Anarchist
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Edgewater, MD
True but it's not unusual around here to see remote gas tanks in swamped dinghys, floating around, upside down. In a perfect maintenance world, it wouldn't be a problem and we wouldn't have the rainbow sheen of oil on the water. 
I observed a lot of that during my cruise last summer. Many dinghies left at dinghy docks for prolonged periods in the condition you describe.

 

johnsonjay17

Member
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Possibly. They are very interesting but most of the ones I've seen have been aimed at grid storage. They aren't great in terms of specific or volumetric energy density.  Those are disadvantages in vehicles. The MIT presser sounds interesting but I'm not sure keeping fluids separated using laminar flow is vehicle friendly either.

edit: Oh what the google finds ;)

https://scholarworks.iupui.edu/bitstream/handle/1805/23994/Schubert2014Seawater.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

View attachment 490255
https://news.mit.edu/2021/energy-storage-solution-soft-serve-ice-cream-1130

They have now eliminated the membrane. The membrane was a major problem with the older designs. 

JJ

 

johnsonjay17

Member
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No, the argument for flow batteries is typically in long-duration stationary applications (8+hrs of discharge at full rated capacity).  

Car batteries need high energy density (light weight & low volume per unit of energy stored) and high c-rate (power/energy) for bursts of acceleration.  These are the opposite of the characteristics of flow batteries.  

In addition, round trip efficiency for flow batteries is often under 70%, versus over 85% for Li-Ion.  
You are correct that the normal flow batteries will have less power density, less peak power and less efficiency. But take a look at the EV's today the peak powers are much higher than needed but they all have the same limiting factor on recharge times. The main reason that EV's don't work outside of urban environments is charging times. This technology solves that problem. Will it replace LI-Ion completely? No chance. But it does solve some of the issues that Li-Ion suffers from. Check out the 2nd link it is to a 900 HP 300 mile range flow battery car. It uses technology that vastly increases the power density and it is using a capacitor charged from the flow battery to give the crazy peak Horsepower's.

https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/new-refillable-batteries-could-fuel-electric-car-revolution-ncna974556

https://newatlas.com/900-hp-supercar-flow-battery/31091/

JJ

 
Still, the old Evinrude, sits in our shop for years, put it on a boat, pump some fresh gas in it, give it a few pulls on the starter and she chugs away.  Being an 8 hp, with a 25 inch shaft, It is way too large for the Santana.  

People can whine about how dirty/nasty two cycle outboard are, but never have I heard many complaints about old fashioned reliability.    
I think there is no such thing as old fashioned reliability. Pulling and pulling, fixing and fixing, swearing and swearing... 

In the 80s I was collecting and restoring cars, until I realized I really did not aspire to being a caretaker for cantankerous machines. The old fashioned cars are anything but reliable. Any myth of reliability is purely a myth. Any modern car is dramatically more reliable than the very best car built with a carburetor.

My 1983 Olson is only reliable because NOTHING but the fiberglass, aluminum spar, and rod shrouds is older than 4 years.

 

floater

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The main reason that EV's don't work outside of urban environments is charging times.
iiuc. the main problem is charging locations, not charging times. at least with the latest and greatest cars, and chargers.

LA to Las Vegas. One stop. for 15 minutes. https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/trips#/?v=MS_2020_LongRange&o=Los Angeles, CA, USA_Los Angeles Los Angeles County [email protected],-118.2436849&s=&d=Las Vegas, NV, USA_Las Vegas Clark County [email protected],-115.1398296

 

shaggy

Super Anarchist
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so. just like a normal bug.
Was just talking about this with the wifie...  Late 80's, Julie was an instructor with me and we would commute to the YC some days in her bug...  Had to feed her her oatmeal as 1 hand had top be on the shifter, one on the wheel, the clutch had to be played constantly and the hand break had to be utilized intermittently...  Good times....  LOL

 

Santanasailor

Charter Member. Scow Mafia
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North Louisiana
I think there is no such thing as old fashioned reliability. Pulling and pulling, fixing and fixing, swearing and swearing... 

In the 80s I was collecting and restoring cars, until I realized I really did not aspire to being a caretaker for cantankerous machines. The old fashioned cars are anything but reliable. Any myth of reliability is purely a myth. Any modern car is dramatically more reliable than the very best car built with a carburetor.

My 1983 Olson is only reliable because NOTHING but the fiberglass, aluminum spar, and rod shrouds is older than 4 years.
You obviously have never owned a 2hp four stroke Honda outboard.   :D

(which is really strange because we own several other Honda products and they have always been the definition of reliable)

 

floater

Super Duper Anarchist
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Was just talking about this with the wifie...  Late 80's, Julie was an instructor with me and we would commute to the YC some days in her bug...  Had to feed her her oatmeal as 1 hand had top be on the shifter, one on the wheel, the clutch had to be played constantly and the hand break had to be utilized intermittently...  Good times....  LOL
seriously. my buddy's vw bus - it wasn't just a problem of only having no heat. it was also wind chill. lol.

still. that thing was really good on an icy road. we would routinely see cars skidding off the road all around us..

 

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