Tally-Ho Hybrid Propulsion

casc27

Super Anarchist
2,343
126
The way Leo's been building this thing I was half expecting no electricity and whale-oil lamps (jk).

 

GH41

Member
163
39
HHISC
All of this sounds good until start buying batteries. I can't even make the numbers work to hang a Torqueedo outboard on a 9' dingy. 

 

WGWarburton

Anarchist
993
741
Scotland
All of this sounds good until start buying batteries. I can't even make the numbers work to hang a Torqueedo outboard on a 9' dingy. 
Numbers look a lot better if you stick a trolling motor on, with a car battery. 

 You can't get petrol-tank performance from a battery, so if you want the sort of speed or range we're used to taking for granted then disappointment looms.

 The difference with the hybrid setup is that it plays to the strengths of both: a modest battery bank (200Ah) can provide an hour or so maneuvering without needing to start the engine and can be replenished in a day or two, if you can live with the drag of the generator. If you need to motor in challenging conditions, however, you still have the capacity to do so. 

 It's expensive to install but needn't be stupidly so if you don't need massive electric reserves and in the long haul the engine should benefit from the reduction of abuse (fewer short runs, less sustained idling etc).

If you're planning long term,  and Leo seems to be planning longer than anyone else(!), then it makes perfect sense...

Cheers, 

               W.

 
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robtoujours

Member
389
219
Somewhere
Saw that video too, looked interesting. 

The system can be applied from any new (Beta) engine from 20HP. So not just for big engines. Needs an upgraded (PRM 150/500) gearbox. 

"Electrical propulsion range will depend on the size of the available battery bank but a 40` sailing vessel requiring 4kW to achieve 5-6kts and utilising a 48v/200Ah battery bank (4x 12v/200Ah) would be able to travel for 2hrs at 5-6kts. Increasing the battery bank Ah size will allow a higher hull speed or greater range."

Would be interesting to see some prices compared to standard options for an entire system. Certainly seems a promising option if you're repowering. 

 
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climenuts

Anarchist
662
250
PNW
Just looking at the numbers with my current 420Ah (12V) battery bank I could run the 10kW electric for ~20 minutes at full power assuming 66% DoD which would be enough to leave the dock and return in ideal conditions. Obviously that doesn't factor drawing ~2C and its associated losses depending on battery chemistry. Generally even Lithium wants maximum sustained discharge of 1C and recommended charge of 0.5C which would automatically involve at least doubling an already large battery bank capacity and switching to lithium for weight savings.

With some controls tweaking you could probably setup certain modes depending on your specific circumstances:

- Electric priority which will aim to minimize diesel burn for situations like daysails or return trips where you'll be plugging in afterwards.

- Normal mode for sustained motoring/charging that cycles the diesel on/off as appropriate.

- Charge mode to maximize charging before heading into an anchorage for a few days.

- Regen mode while sailing trading drag for clean charging.

With today's battery tech this would only seem financially feasible for those who already have a need for a big lithium battery banks or looking to eliminate a generator. Until we get battery tech 2-3x as energy dense I don't think it's realistic for a typical cruiser.

 

fastyacht

Super Anarchist
12,834
2,540
So I am guessing you have never driven a Tesla then?
Different problem.

Cars only work out because the primary drag issue is relatively insensitive to weight (air drag) AND, when start/stop (which IS sensitive) the battery happens to be much much more efficient than dynamically loading an engine.

Boats are constant torque constant resistance and the resistance is a direct function of weight and this becomes more important the higher the speed.

Final death nell for batteries is range. Because so terrible on a weight basis, you cannot get enough and furthermore unlike fuel, they don't get any lighter as you use up charge!

Same basic issue exists in aircraft where you cannot even get enough battery to meet FAA reserve minimums!

 
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LB 15

Cunt
Different problem.

Cars only work out because the primary drag issue is relatively insensitive to weight (air drag) AND, when start/stop (which IS sensitive) the battery happens to be much much more efficient than dynamically loading an engine.

Boats are constant torque constant resistance and the resistance is a direct function of weight and this becomes more important the higher the speed.

Same basic issue exists in aircraft where you cannot even get enough battery to meet FAA reserve minimums!
Will you guys fuck off? I am trying to troll WGW!

 

fastyacht

Super Anarchist
12,834
2,540
Will you guys fuck off? I am trying to troll WGW!
I was wondering why you were being so ridiculous. Cheers and all that!

But I always think it is ironic we sail around with huge lead (could be a battery bank!) keels. Add a little sulfuric acid and voila! FREE BATTERY STORAGE!!!!!!!!!!

NOBODY CAN PATENT IT I ALREADY DISCLOSED IT NANNY NANNY BOO BOO!

 

MauiPunter

Will sail for food
Having basically a clean slate like Leo is starting with, and the ability to make the engine room whatever size needed has huge advantages.  Retrofitting this will be a much larger challenge.  I know my last boat there would have been NO room for the extra space needed for the generator component.  I love the concept.  I like choices. This seems to provide a lot of options and flexibility.

 

IStream

Super Anarchist
10,715
2,921
My home solar array produces 50% more electricity than our household consumes so I thought it might be good to put it to use with an electric car. But I'm a lib green tit sucker so what do I know.

 

Fah Kiew Tu

Curmudgeon, First Rank
9,406
2,951
Tasmania, Australia
My home solar array produces 50% more electricity than our household consumes so I thought it might be good to put it to use with an electric car. But I'm a lib green tit sucker so what do I know.
I quite like the whole idea of electric cars, except for the price. As has been said, different use-case.

It's not like I actually enjoy working on IC engined devices though fortunately the modern ones mean I don't have to, mainly because I lack the extra-length arms with the 3 ball joints and fitted impact wrench.

FKT

 

WGWarburton

Anarchist
993
741
Scotland
 You can't get petrol-tank performance from a battery, so if you want the sort of speed or range we're used to taking for granted then disappointment looms.
So I am guessing you have never driven a Tesla then?
Nope but that reinforces the point: There's no issue with electric motor performance, it's the performance of the battery compared to a refilling a petrol tank that's the problem, isn't it? A 20KW electric outboard could be a fine thing and, I daresay, relatively easy to make but without a 20KW fuel supply it's going to be sitting on the shelf with the chocolate teapots, motorbike ashtrays and waterproof teabags.

 I used to tow a dinghy trailer down to the south coast for the weekend pretty regularly. About 500 miles each way, so not quite feasible on one tank of diesel. With a 3pm departure and a good run we could be home before midnight and up in time for school & work on Monday... It's not a use-case that current EVs support; at least, not on my budget. 

Will you guys fuck off? I am trying to troll WGW!
Chomp, chomp, chomp....

Cheers,

              W.

 

alphafb552

Super Anarchist
2,878
596
Fryslan boppe!
...

With some controls tweaking you could probably setup certain modes depending on your specific circumstances:

- Electric priority which will aim to minimize diesel burn for situations like daysails or return trips where you'll be plugging in afterwards.

- Normal mode for sustained motoring/charging that cycles the diesel on/off as appropriate.

- Charge mode to maximize charging before heading into an anchorage for a few days.

- Regen mode while sailing trading drag for clean charging.

With today's battery tech this would only seem financially feasible for those who already have a need for a big lithium battery banks or looking to eliminate a generator. Until we get battery tech 2-3x as energy dense I don't think it's realistic for a typical cruiser.
This is a good summary of what Leo explained in the video.

To begin with, his projected use of the boat appears to include continuing media production for the youtube channel, and he does want to include some domestic comforts in the fit out - which makes sense if you want to make the boat your home.

So faced with substantial electrical demands and a classic deck layout that does not favor a huge solar array, some form of generating electricity from internal combustion becomes inevitable.

As most larger boats do it now, they have a regular engine for propulsion and a secondary engine in a dedicated generator. That means double the maintenance, double the spares, extra filters, pumps and fuel lines.

Considering that Tally Ho may well require some form of internal ballast, it makes perfect sense to use batteries for this, and eliminate the second engine alltogether.

Budget wise I'm sure it's not the cheapest, but it would appear that he is doing quite well off the youtube views.

Finally, as said above, this solution does not make sense for 95% of all sailboats, that can just plug in at the end of the day. It might not make sense for the majority of cruisers, that spend long periods at anchor interspersed with long(ish) passages.

But it looks like Leo wants to go sail the crap out of Tally Ho once she's launched and I can see that this 'hybrid' solution gives him the most options

 

Upp3

Anarchist
696
253
Considering that Tally Ho may well require some form of internal ballast, it makes perfect sense to use batteries for this, and eliminate the second engine alltogether.
8 tons of internal ballast according to: https://www.yachttallyho.com/index.php/about-tally-ho/technical-data

Why would one go to lithium if there is no weight constraint? When I saw the episode, I was certain that Leo would go for lithium, but now I'm not so sure as there is a 8 ton weight to play with.

 
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