Team Vestas grounded

DogBalls

Super Anarchist
1,066
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Planet Earth
so, let me ask the obvious. Is there anything else out there to be avoided before heading in towards the Straights? Meaning - other low lying, mostly unknown islands most of us have never heard of? Just curious

 

dawson

Member
68
0
Hawaii
I ran aground once, my wife was at the helm while I was changing my babies diapers. It was a great story, we didn't sink but the splash zone epoxy can in handy! These guys must be bumming hard, the only guy on this boat I would want to be is the cook or a grinder...

 

jzk

Super Anarchist
11,562
319
It is hard to imagine what might be an acceptable reason for a team like this to run their boat aground.

 

wombat 12m

Member
54
0
Cornwall
I've sailed around the world and many times encountered reefs,islands,lightnouses that were miles from the charted position.Many charts have unusual datums and cannot be corrected to WGS 84. Its too easy to say you should be navigating 'manually' as well. Even that wont necessarilly save your ass in the middle of nowhere.

I think unless you,ve been there and done it you need to shut the fuck up till the story comes out.

 

weightless

Super Anarchist
5,607
581
I feel so badly for those guys. Just gutted for a group that worked hard to get this far.

I looked on Expedition. The shoal is marked on C Map chart that I am using, but there are absolutely no depth details. It shows the water depths going from 13000+ feet up to 150, another at 66, another at 187 and another at 269, but just a field of white and no other depth labels.
+1

I'm sure it depends on the program and all but on my version you need to zoom in a bit before the area is much more than a 200m depth contour. Two boats nearly went up on it.

Heartbreaking at the least.

It's pretty obvious that everyone involved will be crushed. I don't think anyone needs to be informed that they made a mistake.

 

estarzinger

Super Anarchist
7,484
880
^^

Just a hard lesson . . . . with e-charts you MUST zoom in and look all along an ocean route to identify the hard bits, and put pins on them so they are obvious later at lower zoom even when you are tired and/or seasick at 2am. That is simply an essential basic safety practice for e-chart navigating.

It's also pretty basic navigation practice to give remote reefs like this a minimum of 2nm clearance (at least at night). The Clipper race had to learn that hard lesson in 2010 when Cork hit Gosong Mampango.

And personally I think that on a boat like this, you should also have a plotter following along at relatively high zoom, say 12nm, even if the main computer is zoomed out for weather routing for showing things you might hit (AIS targets and reefs and buoy's).

 
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couchsurfer

Super Anarchist
18,321
132
NA westcoast
I love that all you newbs know all.

No shit Zen. I'll wait to find out what really happened before I throw the crew under the bus. A bunch of newbie cock holsters passing judgment before the facts. Try taking your fucking dinghy offshore once before you judge.

Fucking tools.

I've sailed around the world and many times encountered reefs,islands,lightnouses that were miles from the charted position.Many charts have unusual datums and cannot be corrected to WGS 84. Its too easy to say you should be navigating 'manually' as well. Even that wont necessarilly save your ass in the middle of nowhere.

I think unless you,ve been there and done it you need to shut the fuck up till the story comes out.
.

......goodonya Wombat ...it's good to see not all recent joiners are falling over their self righteousness :mellow: ;)

........those that condemn are likely the next ones aground,,,and likely will cry and point their fingers the most. <_<

 
As the speculation is that it was some kind of software assisted crash, I'm wondering if nav software should be changed so that if any plotted leg has a closest approach to unsafe waters of less than some limit, then an explicit way point is required or else the software will not accept the leg. The advise often given is to zoom in and look along the entire route.... isn't that kind of thing exactly what computers are good for and what tired navigators are bad at?

But then, the flip side is that the more computers do, the less the humans are involved.... it is a tough one.

 

Varan

Super Anarchist
6,521
1,704
The tropical depression (TD) may have been a Total Distraction. Perhaps weather overlays obscured the reef, or the level of zoom needed to monitor the TD hid the reef from view. All conjecture. It happened and now must be dealt with. First order of business is saving the sailors, then if possible, the boat. I'm sure there will be inquiries as to why it happened later. And for all you newbies, fuck off and show us some tits.

 

markp999

New member
40
1
Navy guy here. One huge error that nearly every racer I've been to sea with makes is to use the depth sounder as if it can be a "countdown timer" to "give warning" that it's time to tack away (or even worse jibe the lee shore). While there certainly are some places in which that's appropriate, that's def. not how I would approach it.

The depth below keel (plus your draft) should roughly match with what you expect on the chart. THAT'S ALL YOU CAN EXPECT. Now, you could use being on a depth contour as one LOP for a fix. But,. generally speaking, you should be using that sounding as a piece of data to confirm that the position your magic box put you on is reasonable. Of course, you need to add/subtract the tide from MLLW (on most charts), if significant.

I have no idea if these guys were doing the "countdown timer" thing, if they had any idea they were even near that shoal, or what...but all this GPS whizbangery leads way too many people to the conclusion that they can be confident in their position because their GPS says so. Be skeptical!

I'm sick to my stomach for these guys, and hope they make it out safely.

*** One speculative thought...maybe they were using WGS-84 Datum on the GPS unit, but a diff. datum on their charts. That part of the world has some odd survey data sometimes.

 

weightless

Super Anarchist
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[edit: lots of guys typing. More or less responding to Estar wth this thought.]

Yes. But failing to scan for bits that don't show at planning resolutions is a common error. V isn't the first boat lost as a result. Looks like two professional navigators did it just now.

FWIW, my chart doesn't have any soundings out to the east so the usual automatic warnings might not have gone off either.

I'm not arguing that there's a question about responsibility. I'm not sure that'd be very productive. Understanding what could have gone wrong and hopefully at some point what really did go wrong seems worthwhile though.

 
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markp999

New member
40
1
As the speculation is that it was some kind of software assisted crash, I'm wondering if nav software should be changed so that if any plotted leg has a closest approach to unsafe waters of less than some limit, then an explicit way point is required or else the software will not accept the leg. The advise often given is to zoom in and look along the entire route.... isn't that kind of thing exactly what computers are good for and what tired navigators are bad at?

But then, the flip side is that the more computers do, the less the humans are involved.... it is a tough one.
That should be left up to the Navigator and the Skipper. The software certainly should provide the capability, but having been around constantly beeping nav shit for years alarming on things that simply don't matter is what the companies will default to in order to avoid lawsuits, which leads to ignoring alarms, which masks when you have a truly jacked situation coming up.

 

couchsurfer

Super Anarchist
18,321
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NA westcoast
.

.....all those topnotch sailors hit almost head-on in 20kn........and Rimasidiotus just drifts.on.by.

.........life's not fair! :mellow: :(

 
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Dilligaf0220

Super Anarchist
1,858
174
Not The Caribbean
No shit Zen. I'll wait to find out what really happened before I throw the crew under the bus. A bunch of newbie cock holsters passing judgment before the facts. Try taking your fucking dinghy offshore once before you judge.

Fucking tools.
I was hoping it was an issue with charts being dozens of miles out, but even Google Earth has the coords spot on. My $100 second hand Garmin handheld shows the damn island.

It sniffs like the Aegean, just plain human error.

 

estarzinger

Super Anarchist
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BTW, the note on my (BA 1941) chart says it must be adjusted .18 minutes north and .42 minutes west to agree with WGS84.

And the Cargados shoals detail is "This plan is derived from a Britsh survey dated 1846 at a scale of

1:121,00".
 
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TQA

Super Anarchist
1,208
35
Caribbean
Hmmm I wonder if the electronic charts were based on the British Admiralty charts,

If so they are relying on soundings made by leadline and positions calculated by sextant and chronometer in 1846.

In which case 5 mile errors are commonplace and 20 feet of new coral is not unknown.

 

weightless

Super Anarchist
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Hmmm I wonder if the electronic charts were based on the British Admiralty charts,

If so they are relying on soundings made by leadline and positions calculated by sextant and chronometer in 1846.

In which case 5 mile errors are commonplace and 20 feet of new coral is not unknown.
According to the chart note a Lt who took a small boat over the reef from the west side because the area was unapproachable from the east. So, not ideal for survey work.

 

northernrainbow

New member
26
2
As many have said, your GPS shows where you are to a few meters tolerance and shows the world around you where it was last plotted by whoever surveyed it. The chart off my island in Nova Scotia has 10 areas in the chart showing the different surveys used from the last 250 years to make what looks like a single very modern chart.

 

shanghaisailor

Super Anarchist
2,988
1,202
Shanghai, China
Some of you may remember that a couple of Clipper Races ago, I think in the Philippines they put one up on a reef that was 1 mile west/east of the charted position. The electronic chart (don't forget the start up screen "This is only an aid to navigation" warning) didn't have the auto-correction to WGS84 Datum BUT the paper chart did have the warning in the corner.

One reason why my fully tricked electic boat still carries a full set of charts, another reason being a bucket of water in the wrong place and they're all useless.

I don't know if the Volvo boats even have paper charts on them as everyone seems to depend on the 'infallability' of modern electronics but remember the old computing saying "garbage in - garbage out".

The NGIA 'East Africa and the South Indian Ocean' Pilot states that "They have been reported to lie about 3 miles further to the SW than charted". Also understandable the other VO65 is waiting behind the reef as the pilot reports that the east side of the shoals are dangerous.

If you shift Vestas course 3 miles SW they may well have missed the shoals altogether, still not much of an offing but a miss.

And Newbies - there are some on these forums who have no doubt done more miles going backwards than you've done going forwards.

ateam - Thank goodness you aren't a homicide detective but why let facts get in the way of a good shout.

There are a number of good reasons how this happened, and yes, an equal number of not so good reasons but lets wait to find out the story first.

The good thing is no injuries and also good to see the Alvi boys did the right thing under both the RRS and more importantly the ColRegs.

SS

 
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