Team Vestas grounded

[southerncross]

Was there any point in this race or in the previous Leg or in previous races where sailing offshore over a depth of 40nm was considered normal? Had they skirted shoals successfully prior to this?

 

[jzk]

Opinions have swung widely, some outrageous and some reasonable and insightful. Both are good in my oppinion. "Banging the corners" with extreme ideas eventually settles into some rational thinking as evidenced above. It's like a concept car. Extreme and impractical but the useful parts are extracted.

It's good to see that some are recognizing this as a team and systems failure rather than the witch hunt it started out as. My exchange with Clean, that so many have quoted, was really just pointing out this fact, that it never is just about one person. There are a litany of breakdowns, that rational minds have pointed to above, that need to be addressed. Why? Because who in the hell ever wants to see see anything like this ever happen again?

In retrospect, I'm not sure I/we should scrutinize what was said in the early days following the accident. The impact and magnitude of these incidents doesnt always sink in right away. There is a period of shock and disbelief. As seen in some of the early videos, I don't think it had sunk in. I can imagine at this point though, in the calm of their hotel rooms and in the middle of the night, the nightmare is sinking in and they are gutted.

I would love to see the triumphant return of Vestas to the race. But make no mistake, as anyone who has been in a major boating accident can attest to, it's traumatic. It fucks you up for a while and you hear and feel impact of the keel in your bones and the splitting of glass (carbon) in your skin for years to follow. It's a sickening feeling and you are changed.

If they do come back, if they all get back on that boat and finish this race, it will be a triumph for everyone on board and one for the VOR history books. It should end this way. Not on the reef.

This is not a witch hunt. But it is about one person. Each person must do their job as if no one else will be checking. As soon as you take the attitude that "we have the greatest navigator in the world, I don't need to check.his work," you are on the reef.

 

[stief]

Was there any point in this race or in the previous Leg or in previous races where sailing offshore over a depth of 40nm was considered normal? Had they skirted shoals successfully prior to this?

Previous race Iker on Telephonica interviewed about sailing close to reefs for several hours in the dark when racing to the finish of Leg 2 part 1 against Nico on Camper

http://www.teamtelef...RY-HARD"/page/3

Q: This area, there’s quite a lots of reefs to deal with and stuff like that. Was that quite scary for you guys?


Iker: Yeah, we spend -aaah, pffft— a few hours sailing very close to reefs, an, ah, there was no moon at all, no moon, so we couldn’t, couldn’t see the, the waves, but we could hear all the waves there, and we knew they were, ah, were maybe 15 or 20 metres close so, yeah, was, was very difficult and, ah, was a little bit a-scary.

 

[Boo-Yah]

nobody wants to stop the boat in a race

It's much better to stop it temporarily then to stop it permanently...

.

....err,,thank you Captain Hindsight

It's not hindsight, it's basic logic... If you see or hear something strange you have to react... How many times have you been sailing along at night when you see or hear something in the water up ahead?... maybe it's a fishing net floating on the surface, or an unlit boat, or even a whale... or in this case breaking waves... Your first reaction has to be to turn the boat either up or down (depending on your wind angle, of course)... It's common sense, really.

.

...by the time the team saw,heard the waves they were most likely in less water than their draft....it was already too late.

It's never too late... Hesitation is what gets you into trouble in these cases... They could have at least bore away until they knew what was happening.

Neither of us was there so we'll never know, but saying that "they were most likely in less water than their draft" is just guessing on your part... if that's the case then why didn't the keel hit earlier?... if they bore away the keel would have still been canted so they might have been fine.

They had plenty of time to react after the first person noticed something wrong... Looking at the angle of the reef and their heading, a bear away of only 45 degrees might have been enough to miss it.

"They could have at least bore away until they knew what was happening."

Ahhhh NO! You either stick the boat head to wind to try and slow or stop it or you reverse course (tack) 180 degrees and head away from the unknown danger as close to the path as possible you came into the danger on. The bear away will likely send you surfing downwind into the unknown...... more reckless gross negligence. Unless you can see to steer around the hazard the drill every boat should be ready to execute when you have a MOB is the move all on deck should be ready and able to handle and the fastest act to get away from the hazard or danger. It is the move or act every helmsman should have in his back pocket.

 

[phillysailor]

phillysailor....I too hope the software issues will be addressed and they certainly will be. But as I read your post it occurred to me just how much the modern offshore sailor has come to rely on working technology and just assumes it will always be so. There are many ways it could down,without boring you. What then....offshore..well in my time late 60's -mid 80's offshore 20,000 +- miles...racing...building offshore race boats... one was always thinking what to do and be prepared what if....basic seamanship

I still can not get over the lack of proximity awareness...they were clueless and plotted a course directly over a shoal...and the instruments took them there

If Team Vestas gets back on the racecourse, I bet they take Blue's advice and use a paper chart folded appropriately when giving report and handing off to the navigator and driver of the next leg. Simple, robust method of ensuring improved situational awareness and a establishing hard copy documentation of position independent of continued functioning of high tech devices.

 

[CraftyBob]

Was there any point in this race or in the previous Leg or in previous races where sailing offshore over a depth of 40nm was considered normal? Had they skirted shoals successfully prior to this?

they skirted Rodrigues Island and the Maldives last time. Didn't one or two of the boats hide in there for repairs? Not sure what the depths were though

 

[billreilly]

"They could have at least bore away until they knew what was happening."

Ahhhh NO! You either stick the boat head to wind to try and slow or stop it or you reverse course (tack) 180 degrees and head away from the unknown danger as close to the path as possible you came into the danger on. The bear away will likely send you surfing downwind into the unknown...... more reckless gross negligence. Unless you can see to steer around the hazard the drill every boat should be ready to execute when you have a MOB is the move all on deck should be ready and able to handle and the fastest act to get away from the hazard or danger. It is the move or act every helmsman should have in his back pocket.

I disagree with you... If the danger is on your port side (which was the case here) you do not want to turn to port... The smart move is to turn to starboard and then, as you say, "head away from the unknown danger as close to the path as possible you came into the danger on".

Going head to wind when moving along at 19 knots will take you a long time to stop... then it could be too late.

 

[CraftyBob]

They could have at least bore away until they knew what was happening."

Ahhhh NO! You either stick the boat head to wind to try and slow or stop it or you reverse course (tack) 180 degrees and head away from the unknown danger as close to the path as possible you came into the danger on. The bear away will likely send you surfing downwind into the unknown...... more reckless gross negligence. Unless you can see to steer around the hazard the drill every boat should be ready to execute when you have a MOB is the move all on deck should be ready and able to handle and the fastest act to get away from the hazard or danger. It is the move or act every helmsman should have in his back pocket.

Easier said than done with a powered up V65 but agree in principle.

Clearly the helm had no idea he was straight-lining into <40m of water "wow." ("You can see the lines here") Which indicates no-one told him.

If Nico was on watch that shift, which looks like he was, helm probably interpreted his "we're sailing over shoals right now" as if Nico knew their route and carried on.

Perhaps with a bit more mindfulness, lack of fatigue or whatever, helm might have heard that and gone "WTF! That's not right." We're not supposed to be going over shoals. Left hand down?

 

[southerncross]

Was there any point in this race or in the previous Leg or in previous races where sailing offshore over a depth of 40nm was considered normal? Had they skirted shoals successfully prior to this?

they skirted Rodrigues Island and the Maldives last time. Didn't one or two of the boats hide in there for repairs? Not sure what the depths were though

Well, then. There you have it. If they would have just stuck to the old course and sailed around the Southern Ocean all they would have had to worry about would have been 40+ knots and 10 metre seas

 

[CraftyBob]

I disagree with you... If the danger is on your port side (which was the case here) you do not want to turn to port... The smart move is to turn to starboard and then, as you say, "head away from the unknown danger as close to the path as possible you came into the danger on".

Going head to wind when moving along at 19 knots will take you a long time to stop... then it could be too late.

Debatable.. they were going straight at it. For sure... bearing away would have sent them into it at an angle. Could have crashed gybed it too. but either way it was all too late

 

[Raked Aft\\]

You guys are all whack... the boys on deck had NO clue what was in front of them, port, starboard, windward or leeward. They were sailing like it was deep water all around.

Nobody below had much clue either, otherwise the nav station would have be full go at low zoom. They would have been shooting info to the on deck team. there would be a lookout standing on the windward rail.

They wouldn't have been sailing directly to the reef!

The second they hit they were doomed! The rudders sheared, the boat went into a skid and they skipped up on the reef.. Game over.

 

[billreilly]

I disagree with you... If the danger is on your port side (which was the case here) you do not want to turn to port... The smart move is to turn to starboard and then, as you say, "head away from the unknown danger as close to the path as possible you came into the danger on".

Going head to wind when moving along at 19 knots will take you a long time to stop... then it could be too late.

Debatable.. they were going straight at it. For sure... bearing away would have sent them into it at an angle. Could have crashed gybed it too. but either way it was all too late

The closest danger was on their port side, you can see the guys looking that way in the confusion... you can also see it in their track in the images below... bearing away would have been the best thing they could have done in their situation

 

[jzk]

I disagree with you... If the danger is on your port side (which was the case here) you do not want to turn to port... The smart move is to turn to starboard and then, as you say, "head away from the unknown danger as close to the path as possible you came into the danger on".

Going head to wind when moving along at 19 knots will take you a long time to stop... then it could be too late.

Debatable.. they were going straight at it. For sure... bearing away would have sent them into it at an angle. Could have crashed gybed it too. but either way it was all too late

The closest danger was on their port side, you can see the guys looking that way in the confusion... you can also see it in their track in the images below... bearing away would have been the best thing they could have done in their situation

vestas1.jpg

map3.jpg

We know that. But they didn't. That was the whole problem. Had they known what was in front of them and around them, they would't have been in the situation in the first place.

On every boat all the time there needs to be someone that knows what is ahead of it. That is the problem here. They didn't know.

 

[billreilly]

I disagree with you... If the danger is on your port side (which was the case here) you do not want to turn to port... The smart move is to turn to starboard and then, as you say, "head away from the unknown danger as close to the path as possible you came into the danger on".

Going head to wind when moving along at 19 knots will take you a long time to stop... then it could be too late.

Debatable.. they were going straight at it. For sure... bearing away would have sent them into it at an angle. Could have crashed gybed it too. but either way it was all too late

The closest danger was on their port side, you can see the guys looking that way in the confusion... you can also see it in their track in the images below... bearing away would have been the best thing they could have done in their situation

vestas1.jpg

map3.jpg

We know that. But they didn't. That was the whole problem. Had they known what was in front of them and around them, they would't have been in the situation in the first place.

On every boat all the time there needs to be someone that knows what is ahead of it. That is the problem here. They didn't know.

I understand that they didn't know, but that doesn't change what I'm saying... My point is that when you see and/or hear something strange (like breaking waves) you need to react, and when the closest danger is on your port side the best thing to do is turn to starboard... whether it's breaking waves, a container, a fishing net or even a whale, your first instinct should be to turn to avoid it... not carry on straight ahead and hope it just goes away.

 

[us7070]

They could have at least bore away until they knew what was happening."

Ahhhh NO! You either stick the boat head to wind to try and slow or stop it or you reverse course (tack) 180 degrees and head away from the unknown danger as close to the path as possible you came into the danger on. The bear away will likely send you surfing downwind into the unknown...... more reckless gross negligence. Unless you can see to steer around the hazard the drill every boat should be ready to execute when you have a MOB is the move all on deck should be ready and able to handle and the fastest act to get away from the hazard or danger. It is the move or act every helmsman should have in his back pocket.

Easier said than done with a powered up V65 but agree in principle.

Clearly the helm had no idea he was straight-lining into <40m of water "wow." ("You can see the lines here") Which indicates no-one told him.

If Nico was on watch that shift, which looks like he was, helm probably interpreted his "we're sailing over shoals right now" as if Nico knew their route and carried on.

Perhaps with a bit more mindfulness, lack of fatigue or whatever, helm might have heard that and gone "WTF! That's not right." We're not supposed to be going over shoals. Left hand down?

well the navigator knew they were sailing over shoals - he intended to sail over them.., that's what he said in his post.

his problem was that he thought it was going to be 40 or 50M everywhere - and it wasn't!

we may never know what he said to the captain, or the WC"s but presumably he did tell them they were sailing into an area of shallower water.

I might have more sympathy if the navigator didn't even know they were sailing into 50M!

The colossal blunder is that _he knew_ that the water was shoaling from 2500M to 50M, and apparently didn't think that required a more detailed examination.., maybe zooming in on it to see what else was going on there...

That to me is what is so incredible that I can only assume that extreme fatigue played a role - I can't conceive of any other explanation for one of the best pro's to make such a fundamental mistake

people can go on all they want about the software and the charts - but they were not the problem

 

[CraftyBob]

The colossal blunder is that _he knew_ that the water was shoaling from 2500M to 50M, and apparently didn't think that required a more detailed examination.., maybe zooming in on it to see what else was going on there...

That to me is what is so incredible that I can only assume that extreme fatigue played a role - I can't conceive of any other explanation for one of the best pro's to make such a fundamental mistake

people can go on all they want about the software and the charts - but they were not the problem

100% agree

 

[Boo-Yah]

I disagree with you... If the danger is on your port side (which was the case here) you do not want to turn to port... The smart move is to turn to starboard and then, as you say, "head away from the unknown danger as close to the path as possible you came into the danger on".

Going head to wind when moving along at 19 knots will take you a long time to stop... then it could be too late.

Debatable.. they were going straight at it. For sure... bearing away would have sent them into it at an angle. Could have crashed gybed it too. but either way it was all too late

The closest danger was on their port side, you can see the guys looking that way in the confusion... you can also see it in their track in the images below... bearing away would have been the best thing they could have done in their situation

vestas1.jpg

map3.jpg

At the time the crew on deck had no idea whether port or starboard was clear. 180 degrees from where they were was and always is the best choice. Slam the boat to weather(the brakes) slow or stop the boat as up get out the way you got in. If you are going to crash the slower the better. You must be one of the guys who gets in trouble and tries to bear away at the start...... boom, crunch

 

[Snore]

Hey Snore you say to me... "While I do not know you personally, I am respectfully calling "bullshit" on this. It is not the duty of the race official to warn of any and all hazards. If so, should they have told the teams to look out for Madagascar?

You go on to say "If you are a big enough boy to enter the race you should know how to avoid hard objects that could break your boat. Regarding pre-race warnings of possible hazards...."

I would normally agree ...however you have missed or ignored that the race course was set after the race started and after pre-race navigation planning was completed. An unusual circumstance like this and having regard for the constraints competitors experience as I have outlined IMO warranted a navigation warning. Warnings in Sailing Instructions are quite common.

Jack-

Honestly I missed that the course changed after the start.

That said, prudent navigators would have made note of the shoal, even though they were off limits at the start. If something went to shit and the boat needed to head west, knowing that the shoals existed- in Garmin, dropping some waypoints with proximity alarms-- would be part of my planning. But that is just how my mind works.

Assuming that the skipper and navigator normally study the only the charts for the immediate race area before leaving the dock, once the course changed- the skipper had the obligation to give the navigator and himself time to study them.

I agree notices can contain warnings, but the presence of a warning does not constitute advising of any and all threats- once again check out the Water Tribe warning.

Truly looking forward to the results of the official inquiry.

 

[Fabergekiwi]

Hey Snore you say to me... "While I do not know you personally, I am respectfully calling "bullshit" on this. It is not the duty of the race official to warn of any and all hazards. If so, should they have told the teams to look out for Madagascar?

You go on to say "If you are a big enough boy to enter the race you should know how to avoid hard objects that could break your boat. Regarding pre-race warnings of possible hazards...."

I would normally agree ...however you have missed or ignored that the race course was set after the race started and after pre-race navigation planning was completed. An unusual circumstance like this and having regard for the constraints competitors experience as I have outlined IMO warranted a navigation warning. Warnings in Sailing Instructions are quite common.

This is a key point,IMO, which should have hightened attention and a new look at the charts by those on thew boat itself...sure a warning from the race organizers too, but the captain and the whole of the crew should have looked and discussed the new sailing grounds ...a new look at the waters they would NOW be sailing in....

Check the amended exclusion zones on the web! Where they hit the shoal banks was never excluded! A line heading NNE from the northern tip of Madagascar, to a point in the ocean, due east of the Seychelles, was added just before the leg 2 start. That line, not to be crossed, was well to the west of where the yachts all sailed. The shoal banks they hit are part of the same underwater structure that includes Mauritius to the south and Seychelles to the north! Any navigator sailing north from Mauritius, damn well should have known about this obstruction, whatever exclusion zones were or were not in place, before they left Cape Town, as part of his general knowledge of the route!

 

[pjrs]

They could have at least bore away until they knew what was happening."

Ahhhh NO! You either stick the boat head to wind to try and slow or stop it or you reverse course (tack) 180 degrees and head away from the unknown danger as close to the path as possible you came into the danger on. The bear away will likely send you surfing downwind into the unknown...... more reckless gross negligence. Unless you can see to steer around the hazard the drill every boat should be ready to execute when you have a MOB is the move all on deck should be ready and able to handle and the fastest act to get away from the hazard or danger. It is the move or act every helmsman should have in his back pocket.

Easier said than done with a powered up V65 but agree in principle.

Clearly the helm had no idea he was straight-lining into <40m of water "wow." ("You can see the lines here") Which indicates no-one told him.

If Nico was on watch that shift, which looks like he was, helm probably interpreted his "we're sailing over shoals right now" as if Nico knew their route and carried on.

Perhaps with a bit more mindfulness, lack of fatigue or whatever, helm might have heard that and gone "WTF! That's not right." We're not supposed to be going over shoals. Left hand down?

well the navigator knew they were sailing over shoals - he intended to sail over them.., that's what he said in his post.

his problem was that he thought it was going to be 40 or 50M everywhere - and it wasn't!

we may never know what he said to the captain, or the WC"s but presumably he did tell them they were sailing into an area of shallower water.

I might have more sympathy if the navigator didn't even know they were sailing into 50M!

The colossal blunder is that _he knew_ that the water was shoaling from 2500M to 50M, and apparently didn't think that required a more detailed examination.., maybe zooming in on it to see what else was going on there...

That to me is what is so incredible that I can only assume that extreme fatigue played a role - I can't conceive of any other explanation for one of the best pro's to make such a fundamental mistake

people can go on all they want about the software and the charts - but they were not the problem

But this was presumably also communicated to others - hence someone (guessed as Nico) making the comment in the vid, "we/'re going over shoals - 40m", so hopefully also watch leaders, and from there to helm/trimmers, and no member of that team thought a more detailed analysis was necessary..... And its not like Wouter, or others, wouldn't be aware of the zoom issue....

Perversely, that could be taken as an indication of the high regard Wouter is, quite rightly, held in.