Team Vestas grounded

[jzk]

It is much worse than I thought. Chris simply didn't know better. The average Mac26 owner knows more about seamanship than that. And it bit him in the ass. Bigtime.

Nicco is a guy who has won 2x505 world championships, 3 x 49er world champion ships, raced and won more ocean races than you've had hot dinners and you think that's a fair comment?

jzk you are a gold plated twat.

What does any of that have to do with seamanship? That is the point. He is like the genius professor that can't seem to drive a car.

 

[jzk]

Edit - this is mostly in response to TrickyPigs post #1980 - a few others slid in between hand...

I don't think he was calling measured depths - I think he was calling what Wouter had told him would be the min depth they would see, with no reference to charts or with any independent knowledge.

It's interesting that Nicholson has gone on to make further excuses as to why he failed to check the most important aspect of their intended route - the depth. It now appears his skill set was better suited to 'managing the on deck activities'. So he basically left Wouter to nav/route all by himself with no checks, despite Nicholson having been floating for 1.5 hours before the grounding.

It's also interesting that Nicholson doesn't mention any aspect of how Wouter has reacted or responded. Yes I can understand why Nicholson has been questioning what he could have done differently - but isn't the answer obvious - do the 2% of the nav role that will keep you off the bottom!

Don't get me wrong - Wouter fucked up big style - but IMO, on a top race boat, that mistake should have been caught by others.

Did anyone ask Clean to ask Nicholson how relationships were with Wouter???

When we race up the Australian coast it is against current and sometimes we're sailing up the beaches, headland to headland. If the navigator decides to get some sleep there is someone else aboard who assumes the role in its entirety.

If Wouter earlier had said "nothing to worry about, just some 40m shoals" I can understand the false trust he set up.

Nevertheless, could it be said that someone who was on watch failed to use the zoom function just as Wouter obviously did?

You mean someone on watch should be checking the chart to be certain that no peril lies ahead? That is an excellent idea.

 

[USA190520]

It is much worse than I thought. Chris simply didn't know better. The average Mac26 owner knows more about seamanship than that. And it bit him in the ass. Bigtime.

Nicco is a guy who has won 2x505 world championships, 3 x 49er world champion ships, raced and won more ocean races than you've had hot dinners and you think that's a fair comment?

jzk you are a gold plated twat.

What does any of that have to do with seamanship? That is the point. He is like the genius professor that can't seem to drive a car.

qurstion, how accurate do you suppose your phone is in terms of navigation?

 

[jzk]

It is much worse than I thought. Chris simply didn't know better. The average Mac26 owner knows more about seamanship than that. And it bit him in the ass. Bigtime.

Nicco is a guy who has won 2x505 world championships, 3 x 49er world champion ships, raced and won more ocean races than you've had hot dinners and you think that's a fair comment?

jzk you are a gold plated twat.

What does any of that have to do with seamanship? That is the point. He is like the genius professor that can't seem to drive a car.

qurstion, how accurate do you suppose your phone is in terms of navigation?

More accurate than the charts themselves.

 

[USA190520]

Good, then you'll have no problem using it to navigate your way the fuck outta here-

 

[us7070]

Wouter had days and days with no watch standing to know the entire route and all its pitfalls. His failure to be on top of it has no excuses. At this level, you MUST be able to trust your navigator because there is just no way to find the time to spare another body.

I am interested in the other skippers' answer to the question "How much do you check the track ahead independently of your nav?" I suspect it is not much, and I suspect it will not change. Can you imagine if an inshore tactician had to worry about his pro skipper pulling the tiller the wrong way when faced with a bow-to-bow scenario?

i navigate a lot - nobody ever checks my routes to make sure we don't run aground...

maybe it would be good practice, but if i got on a boat and said something like: " i want you guys to double-check everything so we don't run aground".., i think i might not get invited back.

in order for any double checking to become standard practice.., either owners/captains have to step up and demand it on their own, or navigators will need some cover - in the form of some kind of "official" report with a suggested standard practice that includes double-checking.

without that cover, i don't think many navigators will want to institute it - it would look to much like we don't have confidence in our ability. who wants a navigator that isn't sure he can keep the boat off the rocks?

 

[CraftyBob]

Good, then you'll have no problem using it to navigate your way the fuck outta here-

:lol:

 

[us7070]

another thing - racing navigation is a lot different than cruising navigation, at least the way i do it

it's very fluid - it';s not like i lay out a bunch of waypoints, and sail to them

a lot of the time especially in coastal races, where there is the greatest danger of running aground, the "routing" is very improvisational - I don't necessarily know where we are going to tack, until we tack

is someone supposed to check my course every time i say "up 5", or "down 5"?

what is the threshold?

Ocean racing is less improvisational for sure - but there is also a lot less to hit.

 

[jzk]

Wouter had days and days with no watch standing to know the entire route and all its pitfalls. His failure to be on top of it has no excuses. At this level, you MUST be able to trust your navigator because there is just no way to find the time to spare another body.

I am interested in the other skippers' answer to the question "How much do you check the track ahead independently of your nav?" I suspect it is not much, and I suspect it will not change. Can you imagine if an inshore tactician had to worry about his pro skipper pulling the tiller the wrong way when faced with a bow-to-bow scenario?

i navigate a lot - nobody ever checks my routes to make sure we don't run aground...

maybe it would be good practice, but if i got on a boat and said something like: " i want you guys to double-check everything so we don't run aground".., i think i might not get invited back.

in order for any double checking to become standard practice.., either owners/captains have to step up and demand it on their own, or navigators will need some cover - in the form of some kind of "official" report with a suggested standard practice that includes double-checking.

without that cover, i don't think many navigators will want to institute it - it would look to much like we don't have confidence in our ability. who wants a navigator that isn't sure he can keep the boat off the rocks?

There are lessons to be learned here. Have you ever seen your airline pilot on the tarmac inspecting the plane before the flight? Is it because he doesn't "trust" his guys? Are his guys offended to see him doing that? Is he really the best guy to be doing that? Does he even know what to look for?

Chris is racking his brain trying to figure out what he could have done to prevent this. Check the chart. Have the best guys on your team, and then check the chart.

Checking the chart to avoid peril is not micromanaging. The captain ought to do it, and certainly the watch captain ought to do it. And, these guys ought to consider putting a chart plotter on deck. Probably not in view of the helmsman, but that is just a detail. If current technology can't dim appropriately, then call for a better product. But, there is great benefit in being able to quickly call for someone to check the chart.

I bet half of you have already installed the navionics app on your phones.

 

[USA190520]

Yeah, if only nico has his trusty iPhone....

Perhaps he coulda called you and asked for some tips...

 

[MR.CLEAN]

Yeah, if only nico has his trusty iPhone....

Perhaps he coulda called you and asked for some tips...

Mate...he's definitely qualified. Hey JZK - do you consider yourself an expert navigator?

Can one of you with better vision than me please tell me what those sail numbers say?

 

[mad]

Yeah, if only nico has his trusty iPhone....

Perhaps he coulda called you and asked for some tips...

Mate...he's definitely qualified. Hey JZK - do you consider yourself an expert navigator?

Can one of you with better vision than me please tell me what those sail numbers say?

51747

 

[mad]

^^ 51474

Doh! corrected

 

[USA190520]

Adios munchacho....😜

Look closely and you'll see JZ up on the bow pointin out obstructions with his iphone in one hand and cock in the other...

 

[jzk]

Yeah, if only nico has his trusty iPhone....

Perhaps he coulda called you and asked for some tips...

Mate...he's definitely qualified. Hey JZK - do you consider yourself an expert navigator?

Can one of you with better vision than me please tell me what those sail numbers say?

Well Clean, not only are you Sherlock fucking Holmes, you are a class act as well.

Chris should still check the chart.

 

[USA190520]

Identifying a boat is perfectly within the rules

Especially when said boat is posted for the world to see... I used navionics, navigated right to it... Fuck me, I may even find my way outta the house with this thing...

 

[mad]

Read "A few Simple Rules" at the top of this section....#2

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showannouncement=17&f=20

He used the picture, nobody else

Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include:

- Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly

 

[RKoch]

Identifying a boat is perfectly within the rules

Especially when said boat is posted for the world to see... I used navionics, navigated right to it... Fuck me, I may even find my way outta the house with this thing...

I think iPhones have an app for that. Easy to use while in your bunk.

 

[southerncross]

Pulling a knife in a fist fight guys. A bit unsportsmanlike. Ignore button is your friend. Or usually, self implosion and the flick ensues.

When in doubt, post tits.

 

[jzk]

What is really impressive is the speed at which Clean was able to figure this out. "What boat are you on?" I wonder. If only there was enough information right in front of your face to figure that out.

Soon we will have pictures of my children going to school.

But, Chris should still check the charts.

When you have no argument, pick a good fallacy. As another poster said, this is the biggest fuckup in the history of all sports. It is not like forgetting to check the air in a Formula One car, it is like forgetting to put the lug nuts on.

Everything I have said here is 100% true. Chris should check the charts. Watch Captain should check the charts. They didn't do that, and now their place in sports is sealed for eternity.

A+++ everyone. Really, this is very impressive.