Telefonica Farr designs can't take the heavy offwind?
- Thread starter winchfodder
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terrafirma
Super Anarchist
Well the black boat is busted now, just watched the video, all sorts of yelling and screaming and a very rattled looking bunch. I said this right from the start and I don't think people took much notice, but the crew on these TF boats are not up to scratch. The crew last time around with Bouwe was very very good, this time patchy in the spread of experience and ability. Bouwe is not a project manager and these boats are suffering because of it. You have to wonder about the design also given the rails were an attempt to reduce the bow nose diving, yet here we have ER4 without rails blowing the fleet away.! I'm sorry I don't subscribe to Farr being the best designer in this company, no doubting the smaller lesser known guys of Juan K and Botin & Carkeek seem on the money. I tend to think most of the Telefonica problems relate to project management, crew work rather than design issues but nevertheless there is a story here thats needs to be told here. IMHO
You've got to hand it to E4, they ripped the fleet apart.thetruth said:
However by my reckoning, and assuming current positions hold to the finish, (no certainty) that gives E4 a 1 point lead over Puma, and 2 points over Green Dragon. The question that comes to mind is, is does out performing the rest of the fleet by the margin E4 has, in 30 kn+ conditions, for a 1 point lead in the overall standings, bode well for a race supposed to be predominantly lighter for the rest of the course? Time will tell....
winchfodder
Super Anarchist
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bring back lawriethetruth said:
hiroller
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There's no doubt that the Ericcson boats are sailing well and very fast in big downhill conditions, but they themselves questioned whether they were faster than Puma only a couple of days ago.
It's worth remembering that the boat that held the 24hr record (ABN2) came 2nd in the 1st leg last time and broke the record on the 2nd - but still only managed to finish 5th overall.
It's still early days - it's a long way around the world!
The strakes will help keep the bow out of the water while the boat is in the water but if they jump right off a wave (i.e flying through the air) and plow into the back of the next wave it doesn't really matter what the hull shape is any more!
The straked boats definately seem to have less rocker which they have substituted for more hull volume above the strake and finer bows below.
I'd say that is a liability in extreme conditions downwind. However all of the boats are launching off waves at times, so there are elements of crew work and plain luck involved.
Another factor is the sail choices. There is a very limited sail wardrobe available for each of the boats and the will have sails optimized for certain wind strength and angles. We saw this when TelBlack caught Puma down the Brazil coast on a tight reach but as soon as the wind came aft a little, Puma were able to change sail and pull away. Watch the replay it in TracTrac.
One of the techniques in big waves is substituting the small kite for for a smaller flatter sail enabling the boats to sail higher and across the face of the steep part of the wave then squaring up again at the bottom. Doing this for a 1000nm would be hard but fast work. You need to have the skills, strength and stamina to maintain this but also the right sails.
Green Dragon have dropped of the pace because they blew out this sail (A6) after nose diving and the force of the wave pushing the sail back broke the pushpit, stanchions and finally the sail.
It's worth remembering that the boat that held the 24hr record (ABN2) came 2nd in the 1st leg last time and broke the record on the 2nd - but still only managed to finish 5th overall.
It's still early days - it's a long way around the world!
The strakes will help keep the bow out of the water while the boat is in the water but if they jump right off a wave (i.e flying through the air) and plow into the back of the next wave it doesn't really matter what the hull shape is any more!
The straked boats definately seem to have less rocker which they have substituted for more hull volume above the strake and finer bows below.
I'd say that is a liability in extreme conditions downwind. However all of the boats are launching off waves at times, so there are elements of crew work and plain luck involved.
Another factor is the sail choices. There is a very limited sail wardrobe available for each of the boats and the will have sails optimized for certain wind strength and angles. We saw this when TelBlack caught Puma down the Brazil coast on a tight reach but as soon as the wind came aft a little, Puma were able to change sail and pull away. Watch the replay it in TracTrac.
One of the techniques in big waves is substituting the small kite for for a smaller flatter sail enabling the boats to sail higher and across the face of the steep part of the wave then squaring up again at the bottom. Doing this for a 1000nm would be hard but fast work. You need to have the skills, strength and stamina to maintain this but also the right sails.
Green Dragon have dropped of the pace because they blew out this sail (A6) after nose diving and the force of the wave pushing the sail back broke the pushpit, stanchions and finally the sail.
Did yall read the email from Puma today ? Sounds like Kenny is sand bagging ! E4 is fast but Puma is holding her own...never the less these two boats are miles ahead of the fleet...
needforspeed
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Is there a reason the Telefonica boats entered this race..? Plse tell me when you know.
34 South
Member
It is clear that the Ericsson boats are quick in these heavy downwind conditions, but I wonder how often they will see this on the new course around the world, possiblily only again on part of the leg from Qingdao to Rio.
The Telefonica boats are clearly quick in lighter conditions, T blue won both in port races and caught the fleet pretty quickly after their stopover.
I think it's a bit early to make a call about which is the better design for this particular race.
The Telefonica boats are clearly quick in lighter conditions, T blue won both in port races and caught the fleet pretty quickly after their stopover.
I think it's a bit early to make a call about which is the better design for this particular race.
oioi
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interesting watching some of the vids, E4 bow is much further out of the water with a lot less water coming back. almost looks like theyve got a central ballast tank at the back of the boat lifting the bow out, but i suspect the reality is sail shape giving lift + theyve found a way of stacking the boat to get all the weight aft.
European Bloke
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You should have a look at some of the video if you haven’t.
First there’s some headsail flogging out behind the boat, and I mean really flogging, then you see the sprit still attached to it.
Then some fellow in just his kacs and a lifey appears and you can hear shouting,
‘Shall I cut it, shall I cut it?
‘cut it, cut it’
‘Shall I cut it?
‘cut it, cut it?’
Then more shouting
‘umm I think we’ve got a problem with the steering’
‘no shit we’ve got a problem, why do you think this happened’
At that point I think, fuck perhaps I don’t even want to spend 10 minutes on one of those things.
chuso007
Super Anarchist
"Largely training" is a very generous statement talking about what Telefónica's teams have done in the past year. The Olympians (key players here) were training and competing in the olympics. The rest of key players were hired right at the last moment. I think this is a big fuck up by Telefonica management, and it is sad for me, because I know a few of the sailors and Telefónica's manager as well...
For Fuck's sake!, they're sailing in 20ºs South, WTF would happen to this boat sailing from NZ to Cape Horn, or going down to the 60ºs South???
" Many things have been interesting over the last few days. We have sailed il mostro in some pretty breezy conditions pre-race but none at this fanatic pace. To be sure this is an inherent problem of a one boat program - protecting the assets. I always felt reluctant to press the boat 1000 percent in the pre-race practice because if something really bad were to happen to this boat essentially the race was over before it even started. Not a very good scenario. Plus there is the racing vs. practicing mentality. You can 'think' you are pushing a boat hard when you practice, but the fact of the matter it is that with a competitor next to you on in the same water you push much, much harder than in practice. It is a fact of life."
Ken Read, Puma,
So much about the boats...
Ken Read, Puma,
So much about the boats...
CARBONINIT
Super Anarchist
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We have that to come. I can not believe that the sponsors spend all this money to put a last minute crew on these boats . Thats ridiculous . I reckon it takes one leg to get sorted no matter how much pre race tuning you do. Big sea training is good for the helm and trimmer ,the rest of the crew just hang on. Before the boats leave the dock decisions have to be made and for some players they have made the wrong ones. New routes new decisions.Well done to Ericson.
Secret Squirrel
Member
well done to e4 and jk! much as it's going to kill me to watch them dominate so handily.
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bmercer
Member
It is going to get interesting when they have to go really deep around South America. These boats are animals and while there are many other sailors who are more qualified than some of these gents let's not forget that this is the world of rockstars who "do their own stunts" and that many are probably honoring commitments that have been agreed upon. When this went around last time everyone thought it couldn't get any farther out on the hairy edge, well it has and maybe some of those guys thought they had their fill wouldn't blame 'em.
I for one am more intrigued than ever to participate, as to those who say that these boats have talent but not enough remember that even though ABN was considered extremley well funded it chose sailors out of a pool and weeded them down in trial by fire. Good on all these lads for their balls hope they stay out if the piss.
I for one am more intrigued than ever to participate, as to those who say that these boats have talent but not enough remember that even though ABN was considered extremley well funded it chose sailors out of a pool and weeded them down in trial by fire. Good on all these lads for their balls hope they stay out if the piss.
jonsailor
Super Anarchist
the strakes are aded as a means to help the bow lift.
the trade off is that a designer will fine the bow down slightly to give the boat better speed to windward in left over sea way conditions.
By adding the strakes, he is trying to help the counter problem of driving the bow under when driving hard when running.
I designed 2 near sisterships once with small bow section differences, and slightly less rocker.
The one with slighty less rocker and finer bow ploughed in much harder and was very wet.
The other was generally slower but easier to control.
I think crew control is the problem here
In our case in my 2 boats, only 2 of the ten people on board, could drive the faster boat quicker and stay in control.
I will tend to believe the Farr boats will come into their own in short chop harbour racing and the next lighter wind legs
Time will tell <_< <_<
terrafirma
Super Anarchist
You are so on the money it's not funny , Bouwe must take responsibiity, he is a bloody joke with that amount of sponsors money.!
chuso007
Super Anarchist
Well, the sponsors don't put the money on the crew, they put it on Pedro Campo's hands. And I still think this guys haven´t figured out how to sail this boats yet.
I know it was a different race but lets not forget what Paul Cayard did with a green crew in his first volvo race. They couldn't work the boat in the first bit of breeze that they got but boy did they learn from it!!
