Telefonica Farr designs can't take the heavy offwind?

It was Paul Cayard that was green not the crew...

But it took some time before they knew each others strength and limits

EF was a very well prepared two boat team

 

bclovisp

Member
395
15
Ici
The straked boats definately seem to have less rocker which they have substituted for more hull volume above the strake and finer bows below.I'd say that is a liability in extreme conditions downwind. However all of the boats are launching off waves at times, so there are elements of crew work and plain luck involved.

Another factor is the sail choices. There is a very limited sail wardrobe available for each of the boats and the will have sails optimized for certain wind strength and angles. We saw this when TelBlack caught Puma down the Brazil coast on a tight reach but as soon as the wind came aft a little, Puma were able to change sail and pull away. Watch the replay it in TracTrac.

One of the techniques in big waves is substituting the small kite for for a smaller flatter sail enabling the boats to sail higher and across the face of the steep part of the wave then squaring up again at the bottom. Doing this for a 1000nm would be hard but fast work. You need to have the skills, strength and stamina to maintain this but also the right sails.

Green Dragon have dropped of the pace because they blew out this sail (A6) after nose diving and the force of the wave pushing the sail back broke the pushpit, stanchions and finally the sail.
Interesting arguments here...

C.

 

jonah

Member
315
0
[...]Telefonica have been largely training in te Med, [...]
"Largely training" is a very generous statement talking about what Telefónica's teams have done in the past year. The Olympians (key players here) were training and competing in the olympics. The rest of key players were hired right at the last moment. I think this is a big fuck up by Telefonica management, and it is sad for me, because I know a few of the sailors and Telefónica's manager as well...

For Fuck's sake!, they're sailing in 20ºs South, WTF would happen to this boat sailing from NZ to Cape Horn, or going down to the 60ºs South???
We have that to come. I can not believe that the sponsors spend all this money to put a last minute crew on these boats . Thats ridiculous . I reckon it takes one leg to get sorted no matter how much pre race tuning you do. Big sea training is good for the helm and trimmer ,the rest of the crew just hang on. Before the boats leave the dock decisions have to be made and for some players they have made the wrong ones. New routes new decisions.Well done to Ericson.

You are so on the money it's not funny , Bouwe must take responsibiity, he is a bloody joke with that amount of sponsors money.!

Well, the sponsors don't put the money on the crew, they put it on Pedro Campo's hands. And I still think this guys haven´t figured out how to sail this boats yet.
I don't think the comment about Campos is correct. His programs have always been at the top of the scoreboards. This is Beking's campaign thru & thru. Imagine putting those big swimming pool cockpits in a boat to race around the world? They should toughen up & stack there sails like everyone else instead of dragging them across the floor & then they would not need big fucking swimming pool cockpits. The Managers (shore & boats) have been employed since the start. It's no better than the Artemis campaign & heads should roll :angry:

 

terrafirma

Super Anarchist
7,517
1,282
Melbourne
[...]Telefonica have been largely training in te Med, [...]
"Largely training" is a very generous statement talking about what Telefónica's teams have done in the past year. The Olympians (key players here) were training and competing in the olympics. The rest of key players were hired right at the last moment. I think this is a big fuck up by Telefonica management, and it is sad for me, because I know a few of the sailors and Telefónica's manager as well...

For Fuck's sake!, they're sailing in 20ºs South, WTF would happen to this boat sailing from NZ to Cape Horn, or going down to the 60ºs South???
We have that to come. I can not believe that the sponsors spend all this money to put a last minute crew on these boats . Thats ridiculous . I reckon it takes one leg to get sorted no matter how much pre race tuning you do. Big sea training is good for the helm and trimmer ,the rest of the crew just hang on. Before the boats leave the dock decisions have to be made and for some players they have made the wrong ones. New routes new decisions.Well done to Ericson.
I lost respect for Bouwe during that ill-fated and very frank team meeting they had after the Movistar issues. He was questioned re the safety of his boat by his crew (The crew that all aren't sailing with him now) and his only concern was his future as a professional sailor who had access to sponsors money easily (Perhaps smart hey?) Bouwe has had the time , 2 boats , the most experienced designer doing this race and more and he can only just manage to keep his nose ahead of the Russians..? The Black boat looked like Fred Flinstone and Barnie Rubble going sailing for the first time! One can only conclude that Bouwe is totally oblivious to really good sailors (The kind on Puma and ER4) , project management and a well run campaign. Could you imagine if Ken Read had Bouwe's history of results ? Perhaps Bouwe could hire Chris Dickson to run the show?

Oh well it's only money hey ..?

You are so on the money it's not funny , Bouwe must take responsibiity, he is a bloody joke with that amount of sponsors money.!

Well, the sponsors don't put the money on the crew, they put it on Pedro Campo's hands. And I still think this guys haven´t figured out how to sail this boats yet.
I don't think the comment about Campos is correct. His programs have always been at the top of the scoreboards. This is Beking's campaign thru & thru. Imagine putting those big swimming pool cockpits in a boat to race around the world? They should toughen up & stack there sails like everyone else instead of dragging them across the floor & then they would not need big fucking swimming pool cockpits. The Managers (shore & boats) have been employed since the start. It's no better than the Artemis campaign & heads should roll :angry:
 
[...]Telefonica have been largely training in te Med, [...]
"Largely training" is a very generous statement talking about what Telefónica's teams have done in the past year. The Olympians (key players here) were training and competing in the olympics. The rest of key players were hired right at the last moment. I think this is a big fuck up by Telefonica management, and it is sad for me, because I know a few of the sailors and Telefónica's manager as well...

For Fuck's sake!, they're sailing in 20ºs South, WTF would happen to this boat sailing from NZ to Cape Horn, or going down to the 60ºs South???
We have that to come. I can not believe that the sponsors spend all this money to put a last minute crew on these boats . Thats ridiculous . I reckon it takes one leg to get sorted no matter how much pre race tuning you do. Big sea training is good for the helm and trimmer ,the rest of the crew just hang on. Before the boats leave the dock decisions have to be made and for some players they have made the wrong ones. New routes new decisions.Well done to Ericson.

You are so on the money it's not funny , Bouwe must take responsibiity, he is a bloody joke with that amount of sponsors money.!

Well, the sponsors don't put the money on the crew, they put it on Pedro Campo's hands. And I still think this guys haven´t figured out how to sail this boats yet.
I don't think the comment about Campos is correct. His programs have always been at the top of the scoreboards. This is Beking's campaign thru & thru. Imagine putting those big swimming pool cockpits in a boat to race around the world? They should toughen up & stack there sails like everyone else instead of dragging them across the floor & then they would not need big fucking swimming pool cockpits. The Managers (shore & boats) have been employed since the start. It's no better than the Artemis campaign & heads should roll :angry:
Do you actually think Telefónica's big kahunas know who the fuck Bowe Bekking is???

You must be joking, they give the money to Pedro Campos (a great asset for Spanish sailing he is, IMHO) with King's Juan Carlos blessing (of course).

Look, I'm not into the big "anti-Pedro Campos" lobby here in Spain, but things have to be told as they are, this campaign's management has been pretty poor. Lots of media, lots of attention, olympic champions, money, whatever... but very poor sports management. crews are not well prepared, and I feel sorry for the guys on the boats... I really hope they can overcome all this.

Having said this, I think when the light winds come into play, both Telefónica boats are going to be up there, but for now, they have not been up to the task.

 
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ajrp

New member
49
0
Copenhagen
Reading the emails from some of the boats at VOR site seems to support the argument made in this thread about diffrences in the teams preparations. I can't remember which boats or emails, but a lot of them states that "we're learning a lot about the boat and sails in this leg". I remember one email (think it was Green or Delta) where they found out that taking down the A6 (whatever that is) and hoisting a asymmetrical code zero instead gave the lots better performance. It seems that Ericsson is the best prepared team and knows exactly how hard to push the boats.

Having said that I think it's interesting how the ruskies have performed - after some bad/unfortunate routing through the doldrums they've done a good job at keeping their boat fast in the heavy downwind and pulling back boats.

 

hiroller

Member
494
9
I think they will all learn from racing the others on the way around - no matter how much training they did.

Think of ABN1 last time, they were very slow in the light at the start of the race - DFL in the first in port race!

However by the end of a lap around the world they were very competitive in the light against the Farr boats.

Nothing beats competition to improve the standard!

 

cechavar

Member
96
0
Well, the sponsors don't put the money on the crew, they put it on Pedro Campo's hands. And I still think this guys haven´t figured out how to sail this boats yet.

I think you are spot on. This is a 37,000 miles race, they'll get better, there's talent, youth, and will. Some key player were winning medals in Quindao just a few weeks back, that was their priority, now it is the VOR.

Torben won five medals, he is -as somebody already wrote donw, a legend, he can skip the olympics, dedicate over a year of his life and go for the VOR. These other guys, are just infants, incredibly talented, but yet infants compared to the brazilian. And the fact is, they are still there and they'll fight back.

It will be fun to follow this.

 

hiroller

Member
494
9
There's a long way to go.

I think E4 Watch Leader Stu Bannatyne puts it all in perspective when he said: “We have learnt a tremendous amount about the boat. We had done over 3,000 miles before we started and now we have done another 7,000 or 8,000."

So despite training for twice as long as anyone else over the last 2 years - they still more than double their time on the boat on the first leg of the race.

The race is far from over!

 
Reading the emails from some of the boats at VOR site seems to support the argument made in this thread about diffrences in the teams preparations. I can't remember which boats or emails, but a lot of them states that "we're learning a lot about the boat and sails in this leg". I remember one email (think it was Green or Delta) where they found out that taking down the A6 (whatever that is) and hoisting a asymmetrical code zero instead gave the lots better performance. It seems that Ericsson is the best prepared team and knows exactly how hard to push the boats.
Having said that I think it's interesting how the ruskies have performed - after some bad/unfortunate routing through the doldrums they've done a good job at keeping their boat fast in the heavy downwind and pulling back boats.
A6 will be one of the smaller, if not smallest assymetric running kite carried on board. It can allow for better handling and ease of sailing (sometimes) and allows for a lower AWA

 

Lost in Translation

Super Anarchist
1,261
65
Atlanta, GA
Does anyone know of a chart of team names and designers?

Telefonica----------- Farr

Ericsson ------------ Juan K

Puma ---------------- Botin Careek

Team Russia --------- Humphreys Design

Green Dragon -------- Reichel Pugh

Delta Loyd ---------- Juan K (any other help this time around?)

Nice to have this in one place.

 
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nroose

Super Anarchist
5,251
295
Berkeley
I guess so far JK, BC and RP are doing better than Farr.

Does anyone know of a chart of team names and designers?Telefonica----------- Farr

Ericsson ------------ Juan K

Puma ---------------- Botin Careek

Team Russia --------- Humphreys Design

Green Dragon -------- Reichel Pugh

Delta Loyd ---------- Juan K (any other help this time around?)

Nice to have this in one place.
 

winchfodder

Super Anarchist
1,830
346
Carolina, USA
I guess so far JK, BC and RP are doing better than Farr.
Does anyone know of a chart of team names and designers?Telefonica----------- Farr

Ericsson ------------ Juan K

Puma ---------------- Botin Careek

Team Russia --------- Humphreys Design

Green Dragon -------- Reichel Pugh

Delta Loyd ---------- Juan K (any other help this time around?)

Nice to have this in one place.

Not sure if the 'world's greatest' would be impressed to only be beating Rob Humphreys at this stage! I blame it on the skipper.

 
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johncurtin

Super Anarchist
1,230
0
Ireland
I guess so far JK, BC and RP are doing better than Farr.
Does anyone know of a chart of team names and designers?Telefonica----------- Farr

Ericsson ------------ Juan K

Puma ---------------- Botin Careek

Team Russia --------- Humphreys Design

Green Dragon -------- Reichel Pugh

Delta Loyd ---------- Juan K (any other help this time around?)

Nice to have this in one place.
good insight

 

star-sailor

Member
151
0
Europe
I have to ask a stupid question because english is not my first language. today bekking said they are fast when reaching but have problems with the bow going down while running. as far as i understood the english terms running and reaching until today these boats never run as they do not go below a true wind angle of 150 degree (which is reaching in my understanding). am i wrong? what TWA do you mean when speaking of running and reaching?

 

European Bloke

Super Anarchist
3,407
826
I have to ask a stupid question because english is not my first language. today bekking said they are fast when reaching but have problems with the bow going down while running. as far as i understood the english terms running and reaching until today these boats never run as they do not go below a true wind angle of 150 degree (which is reaching in my understanding). am i wrong? what TWA do you mean when speaking of running and reaching?

By running I’m guessing he means once they’re sailing angles downwind i.e. a deep as they believe they go fast. Reaching will be as soon as they heat it up a bit from there.

 

Lost in Translation

Super Anarchist
1,261
65
Atlanta, GA
I don't know what the TWA is at the speeds they go, but I'd think running means working low with downwind sails (spinnakers often). I thought the article star sailor mentions is pretty damning for Farr.

Sometimes you laugh if you do not want to cry and that must have been the rationale behind Telefonica Blue's late change of arrival music. 'We all live in a yellow submarine, a yellow submarine, a yellow submarine', blared The Beatles from the PA system as Bouwe Bekking's boat trundled into Cape Town in fifth place this afternoon.
...
"We are really good in the light and medium and reaching in the strong conditions. Reaching we were fast," he said. "But downwind we just buried the bow, we just went too much under the water."
...
The team's cause was not helped by conditions which Bekking claimed were unusual for the route. "In the overall conditions that the Farr office has looked at, we thought we came up with a really good concept," he explained. "This leg was a lot of running and normally there is a lot of reaching involved from Fernando de Noronha past Rio (de Janeiro), but basically it was two days of reaching and then it was over. Then it was running again."
http://www.volvooceanrace.org/news/article...LOUR/index.aspx

From the first leg, it looks like most of the other teams and designers went with more all purpose boats. For Farr, I hope it is the crew that caused the problems and that sails and set up can address much of the bow down issues they had. While heavy air downwind running isn't everything and the new course will have less of it, it doesn't bode well for them.

 
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LoopyGirdleSniffer

Super Anarchist
3,305
11
Barbados
I think Bekking is kidding himself. My nonscientific look at the replay has Tele Blue losing ground in the straight line reaching conditions. The only reason they appear to have gained is cause they cut the corner.

 

needforspeed

Member
325
0
I think Bekking is kidding himself. My nonscientific look at the replay has Tele Blue losing ground in the straight line reaching conditions. The only reason they appear to have gained is cause they cut the corner.
You need to understand Bouwe to disect his comments, especially now he has publicly stated there are problems with the FARR designed boats downwind. To admit such an issue after the 1st leg is an appalling call from a Public Relations Perspective but it does one thing very well? It deflects the poor result of the Telefonica boats away from Bouwe and places the responsibility with the designer, in this case Farr. Anyone who knows anything about the Volvo race and ocean sailing will see through this, Bouwe is a professional sailor trying to make a living out of rich sponsors money. So here we have the great dutchman who is supposedly on the worlds best ocean sailors now in the limelight for a very poor 1st leg performance. So now it isn't his fault, it is a boat design issue. I wonder how Farr are feeling right now, perhaps Deja Vu rings a bell. I can tell you one thing, that is the Farr boats aren't the best sailing in this race, nor are they the worst, however Bouwe (In this company) is the greatest pretender of all time.!

 

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