Telefonica Farr designs can't take the heavy offwind?

terrafirma

Super Anarchist
7,601
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Melbourne
I think Bekking is kidding himself. My nonscientific look at the replay has Tele Blue losing ground in the straight line reaching conditions. The only reason they appear to have gained is cause they cut the corner.
You need to understand Bouwe to disect his comments, especially now he has publicly stated there are problems with the FARR designed boats downwind. To admit such an issue after the 1st leg is an appalling call from a Public Relations Perspective but it does one thing very well? It deflects the poor result of the Telefonica boats away from Bouwe and places the responsibility with the designer, in this case Farr. Anyone who knows anything about the Volvo race and ocean sailing will see through this, Bouwe is a professional sailor trying to make a living out of rich sponsors money. So here we have the great dutchman who is supposedly on the worlds best ocean sailors now in the limelight for a very poor 1st leg performance. So now it isn't his fault, it is a boat design issue. I wonder how Farr are feeling right now, perhaps Deja Vu rings a bell. I can tell you one thing, that is the Farr boats aren't the best sailing in this race, nor are they the worst, however Bouwe (In this company) is the greatest pretender of all time.!

I can't believe he has publicly ragged the Farr boats downwind? What does this do for crew moral.? I have always wanted to know, wheres does Bouwe's reputation stem from.? 2 close friends who sailed with him last time around in the Volvo have classified him as an average sailor in the mix of the other skippers, certainly not the picture others paint of him. I also question the Farr design offices decision to design for him this time around.? Arrr, 2 peas in a pod rings a bell? Bouwe Bouwe Bouwe where have you bek-eing..?
 

doghouse

Super Anarchist
The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

Shit, what a bunch of fucking drama queens around here. Give the race time to play out, and see what these boats do the rest of the way.

 

needforspeed

Member
325
0
The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Shit, what a bunch of fucking drama queens around here. Give the race time to play out, and see what these boats do the rest of the way.
The race is playing out Cocko. Where have you been? I ain't the skipper telling the world his boat doesn't go after leg one. Secondly since when are drama queens something different at SA? Thirdly, if you really believe Bouwe can play this race out you ought to put yourself in the Doghouse forever...!

 

terrafirma

Super Anarchist
7,601
1,336
Melbourne
The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Shit, what a bunch of fucking drama queens around here. Give the race time to play out, and see what these boats do the rest of the way.
Did you say Give the race time to play out...? Hummm. I thought so. You can have all the time in the world, but when you are wrong, say after the last race, can I have your phone number to post a million Sailing Anarchy's I told you so's? When the crystal balls were being handed out you must have been in the DOGHOUSE.. LOL..

 

Lost in Translation

Super Anarchist
1,275
75
Atlanta, GA
Doghouse, the whole point of being on these boards is to shoot the breeze and conjecture on what people hear. If you have a different point of view, put it out there or go so silent, but don't ask the others to just sit around and wait it out.

Back to the thread, I imagine Farr is not happy at all. I also wonder how this impacts any last minute prep for the Vendee Globe. They have a lot of entries in that one, and I can't imagine the two design programs (V70 and O60) don't benefit from shared learnings. More pressure on them with the Vendee to show Bouwe isn't right?

How have the Farr Open 60s done? I know Artemis has really struggled. What about others? Jean Pierre has a new Farr. Delta Dore and I think PRB are Farr's? Any one have a list?

 

LoopyGirdleSniffer

Super Anarchist
3,305
11
Barbados
I see shared responsibility in this. Both Bekkin and Farr have to take this. Bekking used far last time and failed miserably. So what does he do? He goes with them again. And and thus Far® has failed to produce.

And while I understand he has to say something, He has to understand that just about any sailor out there is going to know bullshit and call it. Who's decision was it to decide on the Designer(I don't know but wonder) and how much input did this person have on the design perameters. It sounded like whoever it was went to Farr said "Design us a Volvo boat" and hung up the phone. That the boats design concept was 100% in Farrs hands. I don't know about the Erricson boats, but ABN worked fairly closely with Juan alphabet to come up with Black Betty. Farr doesn't seem to encourage this.

I think Bekking is kidding himself. My nonscientific look at the replay has Tele Blue losing ground in the straight line reaching conditions. The only reason they appear to have gained is cause they cut the corner.
You need to understand Bouwe to disect his comments, especially now he has publicly stated there are problems with the FARR designed boats downwind. To admit such an issue after the 1st leg is an appalling call from a Public Relations Perspective but it does one thing very well? It deflects the poor result of the Telefonica boats away from Bouwe and places the responsibility with the designer, in this case Farr. Anyone who knows anything about the Volvo race and ocean sailing will see through this, Bouwe is a professional sailor trying to make a living out of rich sponsors money. So here we have the great dutchman who is supposedly on the worlds best ocean sailors now in the limelight for a very poor 1st leg performance. So now it isn't his fault, it is a boat design issue. I wonder how Farr are feeling right now, perhaps Deja Vu rings a bell. I can tell you one thing, that is the Farr boats aren't the best sailing in this race, nor are they the worst, however Bouwe (In this company) is the greatest pretender of all time.!
 

Kalumder

Member
421
0
Hamble, UK
I think people are jumping to conclusions to early. While I agree that the boat has issues with heavy offwind, in no way is she out of the race yet. The race is long, and the course is not going through the Southern Ocean, so Telefonica may still be the boat to beat. Lets wait a leg or 2.

 

doghouse

Super Anarchist
I think people are jumping to conclusions to early. While I agree that the boat has issues with heavy offwind, in no way is she out of the race yet. The race is long, and the course is not going through the Southern Ocean, so Telefonica may still be the boat to beat. Lets wait a leg or 2.
Thank you.

 

LoopyGirdleSniffer

Super Anarchist
3,305
11
Barbados
I think people are jumping to conclusions to early. While I agree that the boat has issues with heavy offwind, in no way is she out of the race yet. The race is long, and the course is not going through the Southern Ocean, so Telefonica may still be the boat to beat. Lets wait a leg or 2.
Thank you.

THis is what we are talking about here. I for one never said they were going to lose the race. Most of hte posters who are ragging on the boat will freely admit that they went better than everyone else in the super light conditions. However the fact remains the boats don't run safely. That's not good. If they were slow it would be one thing, but putting your bow underwater int he middle of hte ocean is not safe!!!! We're not jumping to conclusions that the sailors themselves haven't already admitted. Farr has once again gotten at least one aspect of their boats wrong, and in a race that will see ALL conditions sailing a boat that's handicapped in some of those conditions does not bode well.

 

doghouse

Super Anarchist
Farr has once again gotten at least one aspect of their boats wrong,
I don't think they got it wrong is my point. They knew going in they gave up something, a calculated gamble that most this race would be light to medium jib reaching. Mileage doesn't matter, it's who can win the most legs, and there's three of em coming up that will let everyone know exactly whether the gamble paid off or not.

 

t_huebs

Member
236
23
Farr has once again gotten at least one aspect of their boats wrong,
I don't think they got it wrong is my point. They knew going in they gave up something, a calculated gamble that most this race would be light to medium jib reaching. Mileage doesn't matter, it's who can win the most legs, and there's three of em coming up that will let everyone know exactly whether the gamble paid off or not.
As said above, too early to tell if Farr has gone wrong.

Obviously this is not what they wanted, but they did pretty well in the in port races. As mentioned in the in port thread though, neither Telefonica seems to be set up for masthead Code 0s. That leads me to believe that, though everyone is racing with Norths, Telefonica has gone down a different sail development path. There is a strong possibility here that sail development (which yes I know would have gone on in conjunction with hull development) has expected more from the strakes than they got. That very well could have led to sail decisions that favored a little more forward drive as opposed to vertical lift to keep the bow free. End result: can't drive deep with as much power as some of the other guys. A sailboat is a massive system of trade offs, and nobody here knows exactly who called what. There is a possibility that Farr pushed too hard into a corner of the box, there is a possibility that they sailed poorly. It certainly seems, after the tiller arm issues that there have been some quality control and project management issues with the entire campaign.

There is more to this story than Farr f-ing it up. That more might be Farr are damn geniuses down the road.

If I'm wrong I'll eat these words, but it is way too early to tell if it is just boat issues.

 

terrafirma

Super Anarchist
7,601
1,336
Melbourne
I think people are jumping to conclusions to early. While I agree that the boat has issues with heavy offwind, in no way is she out of the race yet. The race is long, and the course is not going through the Southern Ocean, so Telefonica may still be the boat to beat. Lets wait a leg or 2.
Thank you.

THis is what we are talking about here. I for one never said they were going to lose the race. Most of hte posters who are ragging on the boat will freely admit that they went better than everyone else in the super light conditions. However the fact remains the boats don't run safely. That's not good. If they were slow it would be one thing, but putting your bow underwater int he middle of hte ocean is not safe!!!! We're not jumping to conclusions that the sailors themselves haven't already admitted. Farr has once again gotten at least one aspect of their boats wrong, and in a race that will see ALL conditions sailing a boat that's handicapped in some of those conditions does not bode well.
Well said. Exactly my point also. A huge part of the Volvo race is running downwind in heavy conditions and Bouwe says the boat is a handful in these conditions. This comes first hand from the skipper, it's a huge issue in my opinion because it doesn't play well with the Physce of the crew, the sponsors etc etc. It doesn't necessarily mean she can't win but what it does do is put the boat in a corner of certain conditions rather than being a good overall boat. Last year we saw ABN Amro struggle a little in the very light stuff but it seems the Ericsson boats don't have this issue but we all know now they are the fastest ever Volvo boats downwind right now. What I don't accept from the Telefonica boats is that they come from a designer who has done this race more times than any other, but Bouwe has covered himself nicely here, thrown his hands up and said, Well nothing I could have done during leg one, the boat has issues. Big Big story if this is true and I can't help sniffing that we won't here the end of Telefonica dramas as the race plays out.

 

hiroller

Member
494
9
The VOR USED to have a lot of heavy running downwind but that is questionable now.

Leg 1 could potentially be the only leg where that is encountered!

Last time there was more heavy reaching than running (where ABN kicked away) and I'm guessing that the Telefonica/Farr have done their design concept based on that fact.

There is also an interesting admission from TelBlack that they weren't sailing as well as TelBlue downwind in the post leg interview.

http://www.volvooceanrace.org/news/article...NISH/index.aspx

Roger Nilson said:

“This issue with the downwind speed outside Africa when the trade winds picked up probably influenced the decision to go west of the Canaries. That cost us. If we could have kept up with the other boats we would have stuck with the other boats.”

However, he believes they can improve.

“We can do a lot to improve,” he said. “The Blue boat has the same hull shape and she was passing us by controlling her better.”

 

terrafirma

Super Anarchist
7,601
1,336
Melbourne
The VOR USED to have a lot of heavy running downwind but that is questionable now.Leg 1 could potentially be the only leg where that is encountered!

Last time there was more heavy reaching than running (where ABN kicked away) and I'm guessing that the Telefonica/Farr have done their design concept based on that fact.

There is also an interesting admission from TelBlack that they weren't sailing as well as TelBlue downwind in the post leg interview.

http://www.volvooceanrace.org/news/article...NISH/index.aspx

Roger Nilson said:

“This issue with the downwind speed outside Africa when the trade winds picked up probably influenced the decision to go west of the Canaries. That cost us. If we could have kept up with the other boats we would have stuck with the other boats.”

However, he believes they can improve.

“We can do a lot to improve,” he said. “The Blue boat has the same hull shape and she was passing us by controlling her better.”
I'm not sure anybody can predict there won't be anymore hard running, the weather will be whatever is dished out. History has somewhat changed with Global Warming so to speak and weather patterns have changed. Yes it seems the course design may dish up less heavy running , but thats in an ideal world according to weather analysts. I for one wouldn't want my boat incapable in these conditions to possibly give her an edge elsewhere, thats a risky bet. Anyhow what will be will be, lets hope Telefonica can show her true colours as the race plays out.? I'm not convinced..

 

oioi

Super Anarchist
1,076
88
im surprised at the low wind speed that the issue is occuring. I could understand 25knots, but they are talking 15knots true and the boat starts nose diving. I would have thought there will be plenty of running in more than 15knots during the rest of the race. also interesting to hear that they are considering moving the mast back, thats fairly drastic!

 

European Bloke

Super Anarchist
3,407
829
Mr Nilson wasn’t that positive about the boat either, so it can’t just be passed off as Bouwe covering his butt.

As pointed out, a lot of racing still to be done, much of which may suit these guys better.

Still knowing you have a significant weakness in certain conditions is not going to help these guys psychologically or tactically.

 

hiroller

Member
494
9
In the last VOR, one of the boats (Brunel) was skewed for heavy running, but due to the ice gates (and lots of icebergs) there was much more reaching on the long Southern Ocean legs. They duly got left behind but still managed the 2nd best 24hr run on the first leg. There's a lot more than heavy running ability required to win.

The boats will be reaching the whole of the way up the east coast of the Americas.

 

johncurtin

Super Anarchist
1,230
0
Ireland
In the last VOR, one of the boats (Brunel) was skewed for heavy running, but due to the ice gates (and lots of icebergs) there was much more reaching on the long Southern Ocean legs. They duly got left behind but still managed the 2nd best 24hr run on the first leg. There's a lot more than heavy running ability required to win.The boats will be reaching the whole of the way up the east coast of the Americas.
which wouldnt bode well for the dragon or russia....

 

Chimp

Super Anarchist
1,161
0
also interesting to hear that they are considering moving the mast back, thats fairly drastic!
Don't think they can do that. Doesn't the rule restrict how far aft the mast can be from the bow (MP). and they like everyone are about on the limit looking at all the certificates that have been made public by the measurers.

 
what they are talking about is raking the mast back...this help lift the bow downwind.!

Shifting the mast step back would be pretty difficult.

Rake is what they mean.

 

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