jack_sparrow
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The 2018 Golden Globe Race
- Thread starter QBF
- Start date
Very true, the 640 has been good mostly(I suspect) because it's cheap and wears so fast so nothing sticks for long even if it gets growth at the dock, where it does tend to get slimy around the waterline faster than say CSC does. After two years it is pretty common to have thin spots in my experience even with 3 coats. Reduces long term buildup, scrapes off very easily. Useless in places that haul for the winter, but AFAIK it's main use is on big ships so not an issue for them. Certainly not a one size fits all anywhere in the world, but for the price and ease of application/easiest removal of hard growth I've ever seen/ easy removal of paint later, it's what I'll probably end up using on my own boat(and may have to stock up on a few 5 gallon tins before it's banned). Downsides are it's the most noxious 1 part paint I've ever dealt with and not useful for seasonal boats. (unless that can of Trilux with TBT calls my name too loudly...kidding).
I hope I get to retire before the end of copper paints, I had one experience with a customer who insisted on one of the new eco friendly paints. It was NOT a good one for anyone involved(except the manufacturer).
Left Shift
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These boats, for all intents, have effectively been tied to a dock in 60° to 80° water since the start of the race. Tidal currents run faster through some marinas than these guys are sailing. The only thing I can think of that would clean these boat bottoms is diving on them with scrapers. But, no scrapers and no masks. Clearly JDVH isn't being slowed down too much. Nor is Slats. I wonder if their (very slight) additional speed is helping them keep cleaner or what they have as their bottom paint. JVDH is not one to go half-measures on that.
Clearly speed is the critical element to staying clean. I recall the VO65 seeming to be spotless when they were hauled out after their longer legs. Still only three weeks or so, and they were hitting the mid-20s often, but I don't think they had any anti-fouling on at all.
On my boats, up here in the PNW, I use a very hard paint (Baltoplate) and dive every three weeks in the summer and every 6 weeks in the dark season.
Might be time to invest in a bottom scrubbing business if copper is banned.
Clearly speed is the critical element to staying clean. I recall the VO65 seeming to be spotless when they were hauled out after their longer legs. Still only three weeks or so, and they were hitting the mid-20s often, but I don't think they had any anti-fouling on at all.
On my boats, up here in the PNW, I use a very hard paint (Baltoplate) and dive every three weeks in the summer and every 6 weeks in the dark season.
Might be time to invest in a bottom scrubbing business if copper is banned.
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jack_sparrow
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I didn't include this in the above anftifoul types as it most definitely is not being used by anyone who has a problem and it is actually more a copper sheath like the timber boats of old and used to keep borers at bay. It is ironicaly the most environmentally friendly of all types which goes against the traditional code of coatings.
It is called "Coppercoat" and consists of copper powder stirred into epoxy at time of application over bare material/gelcoat. It’s rolled on in multiple layers to around 12mls thick. It is then sanded to reveal essentialy a copper sheath. It is also acts as a barrier coat for those with osmosis concerns.
One downside is it has none of the non copper biocides that stop slime build up found in traditional antifouling. So it does need polishing from time to but that is all. It is as expensive as hell but will last a decade maybe longer with say a typical corrosion rate of 0.25 mil per year. You could describe it as a "hard slow ablative" coating without the drying out issues of other coatings.
It is classified as non-leaching by environmental agencies however I don't know if this means it will survive the pending copper ban or not.
If you had the money this would be the coating of choice for this race or for a long distance cruiser. It only has one colour where it oxidises to that copper verdigris green look. Might be worth checking GGR boat pictures to see if anyone has splurged out.
PS. I just noticed that the RO said Uku's antifoul issues were towards the rear of the boat which reinforces my guess that it is a hard coating that is maybe high in copper but undercooked in the non-copper biocides necessary to keep slime at bay and the coating leaching system working. The more vertical forward sections more open to self cleaning by motion/wave action. He might be paying the price for not diving when last opportunity presented itself before rounding CT.
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Kenny Dumas
Super Anarchist
Would be fairly straight forward to use circuit board plating tech to put on a few mils of copper. Anybody try that?
jack_sparrow
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Kenny don't ask me what form the copper is, but it is not a conductor. If it did it would turn your boat into a galvanic nightmare.
staysail
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I believe it is metallic copper which is of course a very good conductor, but if the individual copper granules are all suspended in an epoxy which has wetted all the surface, then the granules are electrically isolated from each other. If this is the case the coating itself will not be electrically continuous and will not adversely affect the boat and its other metal appendages. Also, it will not attract and consume the current from anodes as there is no return circuit.
Some friends of mine used the product on their boat and are very happy with the result.
Tapio and Uku both hail from the Baltic Sea. Don't know where they did their final preparations, though.
Not an expert on this, but I believe most of the Baltic sea nations have restrictions on antifoul components and concentration. And for example, Sweden allows better stuff only for boats based on the Atlantic coast.
It would be a funny oversight if they used the locally available stuff, can't be ..
Panoramix
Super Anarchist
I am not sure that offshore was much more dangerous than coastal as the tricky bit was to avoid boat breaking stuff around the coast, and fog tends to be coastal. The non IOR boats were safe and very early - at least since Moitessier book "la longue route" - sound heavy weather techniques were common knowledge amongst cruisers.
Interesting. That PS particularly so. Something I will keep in mind when I finally get a boat, not a problem with planing powerboats.
Have you had success with coppercoat? I have some coppercoat here actually, need to send it out the SA members who are going to try it out on a dinghy and a portion of a boat or something. Haven't yet managed to get away from the shop to ship it. I've read a lot of bad reviews online, from both people who DIYd it and had it yard applied. My only personal experience with it was having a customer bail on using it(after I paid for it of course...). I'd forgotten until recently that I actually had used a single kit once following their exactly instructions for prepping and coating bronze with it(did the struts and props). Wasn't hugely impressed, looked pretty(struts were in ugly shape) but didn't do much for fouling. Would be an ideal product if it worked though, the materials expense on something that long lived comes out pretty good if you are paying by the hour for labour.
A couple of boats here have applied various copper and epoxy combinations.
Copper powder seems to be more successful than copper flakes on one boat that has tried both.
He uses small batches and regular stirring to keep the copper from settling.
It's only useful if the boat can be regularly scrubbed (here, once a month).
I've had the original product on a tri and it went on lumpy (cold and thick) and was a nightmare to sand smooth. Operator error.
We tried it on a couple of boats in a Qld yard and it worked against barnacles but weeding was a problem in salt and fresh.
Copper powder seems to be more successful than copper flakes on one boat that has tried both.
He uses small batches and regular stirring to keep the copper from settling.
It's only useful if the boat can be regularly scrubbed (here, once a month).
I've had the original product on a tri and it went on lumpy (cold and thick) and was a nightmare to sand smooth. Operator error.
We tried it on a couple of boats in a Qld yard and it worked against barnacles but weeding was a problem in salt and fresh.
Coppercoat is hit or miss. Either you love it and it was applied correctly or it doesn't work well enough and you question whether it was applied correctly.
At worst coppercoat is no worse than bad hard and you just need to clean the hull either by a quick pressure wash or get in the water.
At best coppercoat keeps the hull clean like Nautix A88, Trinidad SR or Micron 66 - for multiple seasons.
The economics have never worked no matter how I did the math because application required so much sunk cost and commitment - and most boats will want to be hauled out for anode replacement, saildrive/prop service/antifouling anyway so... something that can be quickly lightly sanded and slap more on at 1/3 the price isn't really less economical unless you're seeing yourself crusing nonstop for 7 years and not getting hauled
At worst coppercoat is no worse than bad hard and you just need to clean the hull either by a quick pressure wash or get in the water.
At best coppercoat keeps the hull clean like Nautix A88, Trinidad SR or Micron 66 - for multiple seasons.
The economics have never worked no matter how I did the math because application required so much sunk cost and commitment - and most boats will want to be hauled out for anode replacement, saildrive/prop service/antifouling anyway so... something that can be quickly lightly sanded and slap more on at 1/3 the price isn't really less economical unless you're seeing yourself crusing nonstop for 7 years and not getting hauled
jack_sparrow
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Coppercoat is not the magic bullet many think it is helped by good marketing, but in my mind understates the need to address slime build up that diminshes the effectiveness of any antifoul. It is also like any antifoul where in some locations some work better than others. Many problems are with application to the extent in my mind it borders on being one that should only be available via accredited applicators. Professional in the marine industry is often measured only by someone owning a truck. If people have had problems then my guess is it those two issues, maintenance and application which are the cause and the cause of a vast majority of issues people experience with any coating. That is my theory, I'm sure others have their own.
I have a friend that has Coppercoat and it works well with the only difference being he hasn't yet needed to recoat and after 5 years it is still going strong. I got exactly the same performance out of a Jotun product on a boat with similiar usage, in the same location, using the slime clean interval, but where the Jotun's biocide was exhausted early in the third year. By the time he needs a recoat of the Coppercoat active layer my guess is the only difference will be dollars outlayed and that maybe be closer than he thinks.
It is horses for courses. For a long distance cruiser where maintenance cleaning is obviously not an issue, haul out facilities rare or non existent and even if not, product choice is limited or a haulout for other reasons is needed (effecting a coating), then it is difficult to think of a better antifoul system. Outside that the playing field is pretty level.
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jack_sparrow
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Seems Mark Slats just took a couple of hours doing a barnacle clean so it seems this problem has only come to light in just 6 weeks in colder southern waters.
The RO says Heede is using 4 coats including a "coppercoat homebrew" final coat that is working well. This "homebrew" approach is quite common often by mixing a antibiotic (tetracycline) and or hot pepper that users claim has good effect. The former is pretty irresponsible in my opinion and those that do and find antibiotics on their tropical ulcer not working have had a visit from Karma. That said Heede's approach probably breaks a few environmentalal rules on copper concentration and leaching limits.
"Lionel Regnier, who assisted both Uku Randmaaand GGR leader Jean-Luc Van Den Heede during their final preparations, says: The antifouling was applied to Uku’s boat just after Jean-Luc’s. Uku’s had only 2 coats applied, but Jean-Luc who used the same process and applicator, had a third coat plus a ‘hot’ top coat mixed with copper powder which erodes as the boat passes through the water.”
Seems the French maths teacher up front has more than one or two tricks up his sleeve.
https://goldengloberace.com/day-120-barnacles-the-scourge-of-solo-circumnavigators/
The RO says Heede is using 4 coats including a "coppercoat homebrew" final coat that is working well. This "homebrew" approach is quite common often by mixing a antibiotic (tetracycline) and or hot pepper that users claim has good effect. The former is pretty irresponsible in my opinion and those that do and find antibiotics on their tropical ulcer not working have had a visit from Karma. That said Heede's approach probably breaks a few environmentalal rules on copper concentration and leaching limits.
"Lionel Regnier, who assisted both Uku Randmaaand GGR leader Jean-Luc Van Den Heede during their final preparations, says: The antifouling was applied to Uku’s boat just after Jean-Luc’s. Uku’s had only 2 coats applied, but Jean-Luc who used the same process and applicator, had a third coat plus a ‘hot’ top coat mixed with copper powder which erodes as the boat passes through the water.”
Seems the French maths teacher up front has more than one or two tricks up his sleeve.
https://goldengloberace.com/day-120-barnacles-the-scourge-of-solo-circumnavigators/
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Very interesting. So bottom paint choices might be having a substantial effect on the race.
I wonder if others will adopt adding extra copper powder to the top coat, definitely no to the tetracycline that just seems questionable. Looks like CSC and 640 leach at similar rates according to one study of a bunch of paint's leach rates. Makes me want to do a test board playing with bumping up the copper and messing with additives: extra Cu20, zinc pyrithione and possibly ivermectin(Dewormer). Although I'm not sure I'd use it in normal practice, I'm curious if adding ivermectin would make sense in a situation like this where long term in service with no cleaning was a goal since it's supposed to reduce barnacles significantly. Looks like in one study where they tried it they were dissolving it in alcohol, and mixing it in. Haven't found any studies on the zinc additive though.
jack_sparrow
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Yep and I think in Heede's case he regarded himself to be at an age long past that of diving overboard into the SO and doing the necessary maintenance cleaning of an off the shelf product, so doubled up. Those that didn't polish are now paying the price.
Though you would have to drill down using their MDS's to ascertain ingredients and concentration, many have done this indirectly using off the shelf coatings. Here is just two from opposite sides of the orange. High copper concentration does not necessarily lead to better results.
http://www.pacificpaintandfibreglass.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Cruising-Helmsman-Article-November-2014.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiZ2r_wtK3eAhXZ7WEKHaEKBosQFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw2GcwCZMXgrqneolT-G0SGO
https://www.mby.com/maintenance/tried-tested-antifoul-81351
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Great find, especially that first one. If I ever get time I'll make up a panel with just the three most common here(CSC/Trilux/640) and each of the additives alone(add it to my never ending to test list). Interestingly in the MSDS the main differences between 640 and CSC come down to zinc oxide and solvent choices(1% zinc in the CSC, 10-25% in the 640), plus the polymer in the csc. The 640 cures faster and recoat times are much shorter in cold weather. Trinidad pro looks to have a lot more copper content but otherwise similar. None of the paints seem to contain much zinc pyrithione. The ivermectin tests look the most interesting to me since it's specific to controlling hard growth and according to part of the test kills the barnacles on contact rather than in solution, might be a good choice to add into some trilux and put on the driveshaft/prop. I've had reasonable luck getting trilux to stick on trim tabs/struts with interprotect or intershield first, and have wondered if it might work ok on shafts/props.
jack_sparrow
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The beauty about that one it is on a working sailboat boat, not test panels and so vessel movement is factored in being integral to performance. Though I suppose that could be replicated with occasionally a very light wipe of a static test board..
The first thing that guy should have painted when up on the hard should have been a sign saying "I'm not barking mad and don't fuckin suggest that a Colour Chart would be simpler"
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:lol: Yeah maybe I could convince a customer to let me strap the panel on somewhere.
Cuffy
New member
I had coppercoat applied a couple of years ago and it has worked for me. In the Med through this summer there has been a slime build up but half an hour in the water with a sponge makes short work of that!
