The AC 37 has started, news and rumours

[strider470]

I have followed closely.

Yes a 1 vs 1 match would be compliant with DoG.  It could also be by mutual consent unlike the two prior DoG challenges.

Like everyone, I would like to see a multi-challenge event.  A multi challenge event needs to be at least 2 years away and needs to find a way of allowing the same class of boat to stay in place so that new entrants can contemplate investing in the class and development over two cups to become competitive. Failing that it should be 3 years away.

The idea that has been floated of a "bridge" event , I was initially against, but I could be persuaded.

TNZ and Ineos are working out the route to the next AC. I think they are reasonably good trustees to get us there.

And why not having a bridge event with everyone invited? Same dates. 2022 and 2024 in AC75. New teams could use it as a training for sailing team with old B1 updated to be more competitive.

 

[Mambo Kings]

And why not having a bridge event with everyone invited? Same dates. 2022 and 2024 in AC75. New teams could use it as a training for sailing team with old B1 updated to be more competitive.

Sure. But new teams will not want to spend $x million to be noncompetitive, and damage their brands. So they would only use the bridge event as a training path to a subsequent event in the same class.  So a bridge event with everyone invited only works if everyone signed a binding commitment to the next event.

If either the invitees wont sign into that, or if SA lawyers advise them that its not possible.....then are they they safer to have a 2 team bridge event? 

Dont get me wrong, I prefer multi-challenger bridge event.  

 

[porthos]

You’re mixing up challenge and Challenger. 
 

think of it like the ‘33 act can the ‘34 act.  The “shall not consider” clause is the ‘33 act and regulates the transaction of a challenge. The club requirements are the ‘34 act and regulate challenger qualifications.  The two do not really mix  

My worlds are colliding. 

 

[AJ Oliver]

@JonRowewrote - "According to the Greenbird webpage, the current ice boat record is only 84mph, . ." 

Not remotely close . . Ice boats have been going well over 100 mph for over a century. 

 

[Basiliscus]

@JonRowewrote - "According to the Greenbird webpage, the current ice boat record is only 84mph, . ." 

Not remotely close . . Ice boats have been going well over 100 mph for over a century. 

If you talk to Skeeter class pilots, they have a lot of skepticism about the veracity of those old records. As one put it to me, "Some guy goes out on the ice with his car and measures a distance with his odometer, spinning his wheels the whole time.  Then he sails that distance with his iceboat, it's timed manually, and he claims a speed record.  But the distance sailed in that time was shorter than it should have been." 

A-Class iceboats from that era were stern steerers, some of which still survive.  As they get going fast, the stern runner tends to lift off the ice, followed by a spin-out that catapults the crew out of the basket ahd shoots them across the ice.  I've only been sailing on ice a couple of times, but I used to race a landyacht and I have a hard time believing the yachts of that era were really capable of the speed records that have been on the books for a long time.

 

[idontwan2know]

Honest question -- how did the IACC class end up serving for as long, and as many cup cycles as it did?  How were all those cats herded?  I don't recall.

And, given the number of challengers during that era, over five events, would similar stability be a bad thing?

Granted, the world is a different place, and such a move alone isn't going to guarantee a return to the same level of interest, but not having such stability is more likely to work against attracting new challengers.

I guess my question how that was achieved, without raising the objections seen during Bermuda, and currently from some quarters.

Or for that matter, the 12 metre class before it?

I think one of the things that lends stability over time is that the defender usually has the fastest boat of the previous class and therefore little incentive to change it radically and create opportunities for challengers to build a better widget.

Oracle had to do something different than the DoG boats but had lots of expertise with big multis so that's what we got, they knew they had to reduce costs if they wanted any challengers so they went for a downsized version of the same. TNZ had the best foils and foil controls, but they owed Prada for their support and Bertelli wanted a mono so we got a foiling mono.

I think it's just been a matter of external pressures forcing defenders away from the current class and we may be getting back to the normal course of things where the defender wants to keep their edge and therefore wants to keep the boats similar.

 

[nroose]

Honest question -- how did the IACC class end up serving for as long, and as many cup cycles as it did?  How were all those cats herded?  I don't recall.

And, given the number of challengers during that era, over five events, would similar stability be a bad thing?

Granted, the world is a different place, and such a move alone isn't going to guarantee a return to the same level of interest, but not having such stability is more likely to work against attracting new challengers.

I guess my question how that was achieved, without raising the objections seen during Bermuda, and currently from some quarters.

Or for that matter, the 12 metre class before it?

Seems like the people with the resources and will to fund and run AC campaigns have just gotten more thirsty for high tech everything. And high tech has gotten more exciting. It's not much of an incentive to create a whole new class if it's not going to be much more dramatic and different and high tech and fast.

 

[AJ Oliver]

a lot of skepticism about

You may well be correct - my word is not to be taken as the last one on anything. 

You have only to ask the admiral

 

[CheekyMonkey]

I think one of the things that lends stability over time is that the defender usually has the fastest boat of the previous class and therefore little incentive to change it radically and create opportunities for challengers to build a better widget.

Oracle had to do something different than the DoG boats but had lots of expertise with big multis so that's what we got, they knew they had to reduce costs if they wanted any challengers so they went for a downsized version of the same. TNZ had the best foils and foil controls, but they owed Prada for their support and Bertelli wanted a mono so we got a foiling mono.

I think it's just been a matter of external pressures forcing defenders away from the current class and we may be getting back to the normal course of things where the defender wants to keep their edge and therefore wants to keep the boats similar.

That makes sense.

I'm just trying to reconcile how two seemingly similar situations, then the with the IACC, and now with the AC75, could differ in the responses they generate, if not as a whole,, but certainly here.

If everyone was happy with the IACC then, and the AC75 now, and wish to continue with it, then what's the fuss about?

I guess it's part of land-based portion of the AC game, dueling around what can and can't be done per the Deed, and how nicely the question is asked, putting aside that both sides already agree on the answer.

What is surprising that after someone like Alighhi was caught obviously trying to cram a square peg into a round hole, that someone else, least of all ETNZ, might try to play a similar game a test the limits again.

In any case, I'll leave the debates on such matters to others, and re-emerge from the cave once some sort of racing occurs again.

 

[idontwan2know]

That makes sense.

I'm just trying to reconcile how two seemingly similar situations, then the with the IACC, and now with the AC75, could differ in the responses they generate, if not as a whole,, but certainly here.

If everyone was happy with the IACC then, and the AC75 now, and wish to continue with it, then what's the fuss about?

I guess it's part of land-based portion of the AC game, dueling around what can and can't be done per the Deed, and how nicely the question is asked, putting aside that both sides already agree on the answer.

What is surprising that after someone like Alighhi was caught obviously trying to cram a square peg into a round hole, that someone else, least of all ETNZ, might try to play a similar game a test the limits again.

In any case, I'll leave the debates on such matters to others, and re-emerge from the cave once some sort of racing occurs again.

With the IACCs, I think there was a lot of fatigue among the teams with the grind of constant two boat testing and spending tens of millions to eke out a tenth of a knot of VMG. That plus the desire to create more of a spectacle for TV with a bigger faster boat got Alinghi excited about the AC90 concept. Reaction from the other teams was mixed.

Personally, I thought it was crazy to make a major change after just having some of the best racing the Cup had ever seen, but the cat is out of the bag at this point. There's an argument that Alinghi might have felt the racing was TOO close for comfort and felt they could gap the field with a new class they had advanced knowledge of.

 

[DougH]

If you talk to Skeeter class pilots, they have a lot of skepticism about the veracity of those old records. As one put it to me, "Some guy goes out on the ice with his car and measures a distance with his odometer, spinning his wheels the whole time.  Then he sails that distance with his iceboat, it's timed manually, and he claims a speed record.  But the distance sailed in that time was shorter than it should have been." 

A-Class iceboats from that era were stern steerers, some of which still survive.  As they get going fast, the stern runner tends to lift off the ice, followed by a spin-out that catapults the crew out of the basket ahd shoots them across the ice.  I've only been sailing on ice a couple of times, but I used to race a landyacht and I have a hard time believing the yachts of that era were really capable of the speed records that have been on the books for a long time.

Not wanting to get sidetracked on iceboat speed records. The original point, I believe, was that if the fastest possible sailboat is the end goal, regardless of technology, then we already have had sailboats that exceed the AC75 speeds by quite a bit. The water needs to be hard and smooth. But then the AC75 water conditions need to be relatively flat/protected water.

Given the above, what is the eventual goal for the AC sailboat type? Is a glider (aka sailplane) considered a "sailboat"? They can go pretty fast over a closed course given a good thermal day or a good ridge lift location. We talk about "flight controls" on the AC75s. Sailplanes have flight controls too. Air has moisture in it. What is a "sailboat"?

 

[Basiliscus]

Iceboats are very slow when sailed on ocean courses, free from headlands.

 

[Mambo Kings]

The shit fight between Oracle and Allinghi....I dont think it was about the AC90. I cannot remember, perhaps others can?   I think the issues revolved around the fact that using a shell club gave Allinghi too much control. But what in particular was Oracle upset about that led to the DoG event?

 

[pusslicker]

The shit fight between Oracle and Allinghi....I dont think it was about the AC90. I cannot remember, perhaps others can?   I think the issues revolved around the fact that using a shell club gave Allinghi too much control. But what in particular was Oracle upset about that led to the DoG event?

Like Berterelli said to Larry before the legal shit happened, "you'd want this situation too if you had the chance". I think it was just a simple pissing contest between two billionaires and Larry did really want that situation too.

 

[Mambo Kings]

Like Berterelli said to Larry before the legal shit happened, "you'd want this situation too if you had the chance". I think it was just a simple pissing contest between two billionaires and Larry did really want that situation too.

Was there something in the protocol that Larry did not like?    I seem to vaguely recall that the protocol was objected to and then Larry started the legal process to object to the CoR ....or perhaps he just didnt like the whole concept of a shell CoR?

 

[Rennmaus]

Iceboats are very slow when sailed on ocean courses, free from headlands.

Haha.

These obstacles can be eliminated by mutual consent. 

 

[Rennmaus]

Was there something in the protocol that Larry did not like?    I seem to vaguely recall that the protocol was objected to and then Larry started the legal process to object to the CoR ....or perhaps he just didnt like the whole concept of a shell CoR?

The protocol was too lopsided for Larry's liking, and engaging in a DoG match elegantly eliminated the CSS where Oracle has always failed. So, the reason for Oracle's intervention depends on which reading you prefer.

 

[DougH]

Iceboats are very slow when sailed on ocean courses, free from headlands.

AC75s are very slow too unless in liquid water. They are still very slow in liquid water if the waves are too big or the wind is a bit too light. Unless they can reliably foil it is as if they have dropped an anchor.

 

[Mambo Kings]

The protocol was too lopsided for Larry's liking, and engaging in a DoG match elegantly eliminated the CSS where Oracle has always failed. So, the reason for Oracle's intervention depends on which reading you prefer.

Does history record specifically what Larry disliked about the protocol?   It is not in the legal case, because he kept the legal case focused on the CoR not being qualified .

Or did Allinghi simply refuse to find a more agreeable CoR?

Will history record that they spent hundreds of millions on a spat that nobody can remember what the original reason was except two large egos got in the way.

 

[Stingray~]

Does history record specifically what Larry disliked about the protocol?   It is not in the legal case, because he kept the legal case focused on the CoR not being qualified .

Or did Allinghi simply refuse to find a more agreeable CoR?

Will history record that they spent hundreds of millions on a spat that nobody can remember what the original reason was except two large egos got in the way.

Oracle Racing did try to negotiate an MC with Alinghi but eventually gave up, for a long list of reasons.

Larry drew an analogy in a video interview with (iirc) the WSJ where he drew an analogy to basketball. He said something like “Why on earth would I play basketball against a team in a situation where the arena, the rules, and the refs, were all owned and controlled by the opponent?”