The AC 37 has started, news and rumours

jaysper

Super Anarchist
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Wellington
Yes, and you have to believe that JR has the same desire to maximize commercial opportunities such that it can pay.
I can't believe the guy is THAT stupid, but then Lazza is so its possible.

I have been working on the assumption that JR simply wants to control the whole fucking thing.

 

Rennmaus

Super Anarchist
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Wow, just wow. I just had a revelation which changes a lot of what I thought about the current situation. Was it Porthos who directed me to the Mercury Bay decision http://www.courts.state.ny.us/reporter/archives/mercury_sandiego.htm? Thanks a lot!!! What a great piece of writing and of course understanding of the DoG and what a trust can and cannot do.

O.k., the current rumors (if they will be implemented needs to be seen) and what I did not like about them:
- Having AC38 provisions as mandatory part of the AC37 protocol: still an absolute no-go
- Nat. rules for sailors: meh, but a bit jumping the shark
- A 1:1 MC match is actually what the Deed originally envisaged, so although LR and NYYC would be shut-out, there's not much reason to object

- Defending the Cup outside of one's home waters: Although in a way Deed compliant, I hated this idea. And here, Judge Alexander has changed my mind completely.

This is the paragraph. Although the principle is well known, the way and clarity of the words are amazing (bold mine):

The rationale underlying this basic rule of construction is that the words used in the instrument itself are the best evidence of the intention of the drafter of the document. Therefore, we must examine the plain language of the Deed of Gift at issue here.
Initially I assumed that George Schuyler wanted the defending club to defend at the same place that was used for the annual regatta (the home waters). But he did not explicitly mentioned it in the Deed, au contraire, he deliberately deleted this phrase ("... sailed over the usual course for the Annual Regatta of the Yacht Club in possession of the Cup...) from the first resp. second Deed (1857/1882). Therefore, I now think that Georgie did not care in the least where the defense takes place. He might not have thought that it will be taken to another country, but probably he would not object either. Otherwise, he could have written it into the third Deed.

Anyway, this shows that one never stops to learn. Thanks Judge Alexander!

The rest of the document is also a good read. Highly recommended, especially Chief Judge Wachtler's concurring note:

... It is tempting, of course, to confuse our authority to construe the trust instrument with a license to mold the America's Cup competition in accord with our notions of sporting ideals. Ultimately, however, it must be the contestants, not the courts, who define the traditions and ideals of the sport. No one wishes to see the competition debased by commercialism and greed. But if the traditions and ideals of the sport are dependent on judicial coercion, that battle is already lost. ...

 

Blitzkrieg9

Member
220
62
Wow, just wow. I just had a revelation which changes a lot of what I thought about the current situation. Was it Porthos who directed me to the Mercury Bay decision http://www.courts.state.ny.us/reporter/archives/mercury_sandiego.htm? Thanks a lot!!! What a great piece of writing and of course understanding of the DoG and what a trust can and cannot do.

O.k., the current rumors (if they will be implemented needs to be seen) and what I did not like about them:
- Having AC38 provisions as mandatory part of the AC37 protocol: still an absolute no-go
- Nat. rules for sailors: meh, but a bit jumping the shark
- A 1:1 MC match is actually what the Deed originally envisaged, so although LR and NYYC would be shut-out, there's not much reason to object

- Defending the Cup outside of one's home waters: Although in a way Deed compliant, I hated this idea. And here, Judge Alexander has changed my mind completely.

This is the paragraph. Although the principle is well known, the way and clarity of the words are amazing (bold mine):

Initially I assumed that George Schuyler wanted the defending club to defend at the same place that was used for the annual regatta (the home waters). But he did not explicitly mentioned it in the Deed, au contraire, he deliberately deleted this phrase ("... sailed over the usual course for the Annual Regatta of the Yacht Club in possession of the Cup...) from the first resp. second Deed (1857/1882). Therefore, I now think that Georgie did not care in the least where the defense takes place. He might not have thought that it will be taken to another country, but probably he would not object either. Otherwise, he could have written it into the third Deed.

Anyway, this shows that one never stops to learn. Thanks Judge Alexander!

The rest of the document is also a good read. Highly recommended, especially Chief Judge Wachtler's concurring note:
It was a great read indeed.  As usual, reading the majority opinion I thought "yeah!  This is cut and dry"

Then you read the dissenting opinions and its not so clear anymore. I agree with the majority decision, but there are great points to be made that perhaps the fiduciary duty of the trustee can/should limit their powers over the beneficiaries.   Its a fascinating case. 

 

jaysper

Super Anarchist
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Wellington
The part where they take the ball away and go jack each other off in England isn't so nice either. ENTZ are making Oracle and Allinghi look like Trump to George W Bush. Fucking cunts.
Look taking their ball away is pretty appalling, but the absolute show stopper for me is the cheating (i.e. AC38).

 

idontwan2know

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So basically Magnus thinks the future of the AC is what Wussell and Lazza tried despite the fact that it failed spectacularly?

The issue is the legal framework surrounding the AC is both why its so coveted and impossible for it to be packaged for TV like every other sports product on the market.
Here's the thing...virtually everybody in the AC world agrees that a predictable stable cycle with cost controls and venues that are attractive to sponsors and TV partners is what is best for the cup. It's only on SA AC forums that you find much disagreement with that idea.

The devil is always in the details, who has the power, and what these things mean for the competitors' short term likelihood of winning.

Oracle and Alinghi's vision for the cup was nearly identical to start, and wasn't even that different prior to the DoG match, they just disagreed about who should have influence over the process. ETNZ and Bertelli were not that opposed to the general concept of an ongoing F1 style AC circus when Oracle proposed it, they just didn't like the boat and a few other provisions that ran counter to their personal competitive interests.

 

JALhazmat

Super Anarchist
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1,558
Southampton
Tom Ehman is questioning the Challenge, the legitimacy of the Royal Yacht Squadron Racing, the new Challenger of Record for AC37 and I just roped him!
Yes that fake yacht club that’s been there for 200 years and it’s arm that has been allowed to compete legally for the last two cycles is now suddenly illegitimate... fuck off Tom. 

 

45Roller

Super Anarchist
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374
Ireland
And the failed appeal:

https://law.justia.com/cases/new-york/court-of-appeals/2009/2009-02480.html

and the paragraph about settling it on the water

"Since CNEV has failed to show that at the time it submitted its Notice of Challenge it was a "[c]lub fulfilling all the conditions required by" the Deed of Gift, it does not qualify as the Challenger of Record for the 33rd America's Cup competition and Supreme Court was correct in declaring GGYC to be the valid Challenger of Record.

It has been posited that the right to act as trustee of the America's Cup should be decided on the water and not in a{**12 NY3d at 258} courtroom. We wholeheartedly agree. It falls now to SNG and GGYC to work together to maintain this noble sailing tradition as "a perpetual Challenge Cup for friendly competition between foreign countries" (Deed of Gift, Oct. 24, 1887, ¶ 3).

Accordingly, the order of the Appellate Division should be reversed, with costs, and the orders of Supreme Court reinstated"

 

Rennmaus

Super Anarchist
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Here's the thing...virtually everybody in the AC world agrees that a predictable stable cycle with cost controls and venues that are attractive to sponsors and TV partners is what is best for the cup. It's only on SA AC forums that you find much disagreement with that idea.

The devil is always in the details, who has the power, and what these things mean for the competitors' short term likelihood of winning.

Oracle and Alinghi's vision for the cup was nearly identical to start, and wasn't even that different prior to the DoG match, they just disagreed about who should have influence over the process. ETNZ and Bertelli were not that opposed to the general concept of an ongoing F1 style AC circus when Oracle proposed it, they just didn't like the boat and a few other provisions that ran counter to their personal competitive interests.
Bold:
If everybody in the AC world agrees that stability is required, fine. Then any defender and CoR can agree on the AC75 for eternity. But only after they are Defender and CoR.

I find absolutely no disagreement in SAAC with the notion of stability. In fact, there are many voices asking for it so that we can witness a real multi-challenger AC again. But without the violation of the DoG.

 

EYESAILOR

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Tom Ehman is questioning the Challenge, the legitimacy of the Royal Yacht Squadron Racing, the new Challenger of Record for AC37 and I just roped him!
You mean the club that presented the original trophy and hosted the race that awarded that trophy to the syndicate who gifted it as the AC. 

Good luck with that!

 

dg_sailingfan

Super Anarchist
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Augsburg
You mean the club that presented the original trophy and hosted the race that awarded that trophy to the syndicate who gifted it as the AC. 

Good luck with that!
No joke mate, Ehman is questioning their legitimacy despite them being accepted as Challenger previously first by the Golden Gate Yacht Club for AC35 in Bermuda and then by the Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron for AC36 in Auckland. This is just very poor by Ehman because he's frightened by a possible 1 - 1 Challenge next year and his beloved American Magic Team didn't do as well as he hoped for during AC36.

So, he's taking it out on someone else in the hope he can score some Points!

 

jaysper

Super Anarchist
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Wellington
who has the power
And right THERE is the problem.

Formula 1 has a governing body, Football has a governing body, Athletics has a governing body.

Despite being utterly corrupt, they at least are able to plot out a long term and stable vision for their respective sports.

Short of some how magically modifying the DoG and creating an all encompassing governing body, the AC is and will always been (roughly) what it is.

Quite frankly if this "magic" was somehow achieved, I think the interest in AC would wane pretty quick as it transformed into just another event.

 

dg_sailingfan

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@jaysper

The Problem is not that AC hasn't a Governing Body, it shouldn't have.

The real Problem is that the AC goes bascially dark after one Event ends. There should be continuous Content on the Website, on the Social Channels, etc. That's why people lose interest not because it doesn't have a Governing Body.

Remember: It took the new Trustee AGES to upload Full Broadcasts from AC34 and AC35. Compare that to the YT Channels of the Tour de France, Olympics, F1,....there is always new content. The F1 YT showed Full Races dating back to 1999 or 1998 for example.

All what we have when in comes to Valencia 2007, which many deemed as one of the most successful Cup Cycles in the modern aera is 26 Minute Highlight Clips. I've asked the AC Webteam to put forward Full Races for AC32, they did not listen.

 

EYESAILOR

Super Anarchist
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No joke mate, Ehman is questioning their legitimacy despite them being accepted as Challenger previously first by the Golden Gate Yacht Club for AC35 in Bermuda and then by the Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron for AC36 in Auckland. This is just very poor by Ehman because he's frightened by a possible 1 - 1 Challenge next year and his beloved American Magic Team didn't do as well as he hoped for during AC36.

So, he's taking it out on someone else in the hope he can score some Points!
Not forgetting the 1958 challenge by RYS and the 12 meter Sceptre......This was the first AC in 20 years which got the whole thing going again.  IF RYS had not challenged in 1958, who knows what dusty closet the cup might have ended up in.

Prior to the 1958 challenge,  challenges for the cup had been accepted from RYS at least 5 times by my count

Surely one of the most legit challengers in the history of the cup.

 

jaysper

Super Anarchist
10,144
1,282
Wellington
@jaysper

The Problem is not that AC hasn't a Governing Body, it shouldn't have.

The real Problem is that the AC goes bascially dark after one Event ends. There should be continuous Content on the Website, on the Social Channels, etc. That's why people lose interest not because it doesn't have a Governing Body.

Remember: It took the new Trustee AGES to upload Full Broadcasts from AC34 and AC35. Compare that to the YT Channels of the Tour de France, Olympics, F1,....there is always new content. The F1 YT showed Full Races dating back to 1999 or 1998 for example.

All what we have when in comes to Valencia 2007, which many deemed as one of the most successful Cup Cycles in the modern aera is 26 Minute Highlight Clips. I've asked the AC Webteam to put forward Full Races for AC32, they did not listen.
Its because it doesn't have an enduring entity (call it a governing body or whatever) that it goes dark.

So you can want all that other stuff, but it aint gonna happen without such a body (not that I'm spruiking for it).

 

dg_sailingfan

Super Anarchist
2,421
446
Augsburg
Not forgetting the 1958 challenge by RYS and the 12 meter Sceptre......This was the first AC in 20 years which got the whole thing going again.  IF RYS had not challenged in 1958, who knows what dusty closet the cup might have ended up in.

Prior to the 1958 challenge,  challenges for the cup had been accepted from RYS at least 5 times by my count

Surely one of the most legit challengers in the history of the cup.
Absolutely! I am definitly hitting back at Ehman before this gets any big legs!

 
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