The AC 37 has started, news and rumours

Priscilla

Super Anarchist
4,365
3,002
Dennis's unsuccessful campaigns after 88 had a lot more to do with his shortcomings as a team boss and fundraiser as the game evolved than his slowing reflexes. I agree with your overarching point, that helming an AC75 is a younger man's game than the older boats.
Sadly AC75 crew weight limits would preclude DC from being eligible to mount another challenge  :p

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Blitzkrieg9

Member
220
62
What's wrong with spithill/bruni? They had the best starts out of anyone in ac75s, and relatively few tactical mistakes...

Taking 3 races (very nearly 5) off the rocketship that was etnz is no small feat
In like FB/Spits helming but I'd like Sibello to have even more authority and input. Much like TH on AM, doing other tasks (like driving or flying) occupies a lot of your mental power. 

 

EYESAILOR

Super Anarchist
3,677
2,135
If the LR boat was as fast (or even close to as fast), then ETNZ would have had no chance in that race.
Agreed LR dominated in the starts.

We dont know and never will know if ETNZ was a faster boat due entirely to the boat or the people driving .   When Burling/Tuke are racing one design 49ers, they have clear speed advantage over midfleet.  Great boat speed can come from the talents of the helm/trim.

Im not suggesting that LR was the faster boat. Im just saying we cant draw too many conclusions.

Burling dominated in the Moth worlds. He was just faster.

 

jaysper

Super Anarchist
10,172
1,295
Wellington
Agreed LR dominated in the starts.

We dont know and never will know if ETNZ was a faster boat due entirely to the boat or the people driving .   When Burling/Tuke are racing one design 49ers, they have clear speed advantage over midfleet.  Great boat speed can come from the talents of the helm/trim.

Im not suggesting that LR was the faster boat. Im just saying we cant draw too many conclusions.

Burling dominated in the Moth worlds. He was just faster.
Fair point. However dgs normal rant about all things LR is once again unjustified imo.

 

strider470

Super Anarchist
Agreed LR dominated in the starts.

We dont know and never will know if ETNZ was a faster boat due entirely to the boat or the people driving .   When Burling/Tuke are racing one design 49ers, they have clear speed advantage over midfleet.  Great boat speed can come from the talents of the helm/trim.

Im not suggesting that LR was the faster boat. Im just saying we cant draw too many conclusions.

Burling dominated in the Moth worlds. He was just faster.
The speed edge Te Rehutai had over Luna Rossa has been confirmed by both the sailing teams in almost every interview after the match. And if you have a look at the performance thread here you can also get all the data you need. It's not a boat handling issue, unfortunately.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

EYESAILOR

Super Anarchist
3,677
2,135
The speed edge Te Rehutai had over Luna Rossa has been confirmed by both the sailing teams in almost every interview after the match. And if you have a look at the performance thread here you can also get all the data you need. It's not a boat handling issue, unfortunately.
Yeah I was just being pedantic.

There is no doubt that TR was faster.   Im sure design was the most significant part of that. But please remember that if there are two identical boats, one will be faster....always.

Ben Ainslie's Finn was consistently faster than Dean Barkers Finn when they raced against each other in the Olympics......by a considerable margin. If they swapped boats, Ben's Finn would still have been faster. Ben's tactics were superb and helped him win gold but he clearly had superior boat speed over several talented competition.  When we move away from one design we tend to assume that the difference in boat speed is wholly attributable to the boat.

But ...sorry to go on diversion....yes TR was faster.

 

strider470

Super Anarchist
Yeah I was just being pedantic.

There is no doubt that TR was faster.   Im sure design was the most significant part of that. But please remember that if there are two identical boats, one will be faster....always.

Ben Ainslie's Finn was consistently faster than Dean Barkers Finn when they raced against each other in the Olympics......by a considerable margin. If they swapped boats, Ben's Finn would still have been faster. Ben's tactics were superb and helped him win gold but he clearly had superior boat speed over several talented competition.  When we move away from one design we tend to assume that the difference in boat speed is wholly attributable to the boat.

But ...sorry to go on diversion....yes TR was faster.
You are right in general, but these machines are so optimized and computerized for performance analysis that I doubt any bit of possible speed had not been squeezed, especially in a straight line. In manoeuvring, it would be easier to see differences and errors, but both teams had been almost flawless. ETNZ, a bit rusty at the beginning, could match LR speed in tacking only after some races, for instance.

 

EYESAILOR

Super Anarchist
3,677
2,135
You are right in general, but these machines are so optimized and computerized for performance analysis that I doubt any bit of possible speed had not been squeezed, especially in a straight line. In manoeuvring, it would be easier to see differences and errors, but both teams had been almost flawless. ETNZ, a bit rusty at the beginning, could match LR speed in tacking only after some races, for instance.
Im old fashioned. I watch Burling and Spitbull and Ceco twisting the handles and fine tuning trim, at the margin and on every wave, I believe that someone will be better at that.

I know that even if I had 365 days of practice, 10 hours a day, all three of them would be faster than me without any practice. After that its a matter of degree. Between them, I believe enough in the human element to believe that  one will be slightly faster in a straight line.

I think it is more important to have the right design , and more important to be on the right part of the course with pressure and shirt......but if I am a billionaire putting together a challenge I want all three....brilliant designer - brilliant tactician-    .....and yes, a helm who can squeeze  0.5% of boat speed.

 

dg_sailingfan

Super Anarchist
2,835
585
Augsburg
Yeah I was just being pedantic.

There is no doubt that TR was faster.   Im sure design was the most significant part of that. But please remember that if there are two identical boats, one will be faster....always.

Ben Ainslie's Finn was consistently faster than Dean Barkers Finn when they raced against each other in the Olympics......by a considerable margin. If they swapped boats, Ben's Finn would still have been faster. Ben's tactics were superb and helped him win gold but he clearly had superior boat speed over several talented competition.  When we move away from one design we tend to assume that the difference in boat speed is wholly attributable to the boat.

But ...sorry to go on diversion....yes TR was faster.
Ainslie has consistently performed better in a OD Class. In the 2011-2013 ACWS when he first made leaps with his Morgan Stanley Ben Ainslie Racing Team he finished 3rd although they were later disqualified because de Ridder altered their Boat.

During the 2015/2016 ACWS when it was held in the OD AC45F Class Ainslie won + he won 4 of the 9 Individual Events that were contested.

And finally once he signed up to SailGP with INEOS he trounced everyone in Sydney incl. Outerridge and Slingsby.

The more OD Design Components AC37 has the better for Ben.

 

Sailbydate

Super Anarchist
11,856
3,430
Kohimarama
Nah, sorry it was in a documentary about F1 a good number of years ago when people watched these funny contraptions called TVs. 

However it showed that F1 drivers didn't have reaction times beyond the ordinary but rather could anticipate what was coming next and prepare for it much better.
Time in a specific track, racing simulator will do that for you, no?

 

strider470

Super Anarchist
Im old fashioned. I watch Burling and Spitbull and Ceco twisting the handles and fine tuning trim, at the margin and on every wave, I believe that someone will be better at that.

I know that even if I had 365 days of practice, 10 hours a day, all three of them would be faster than me without any practice. After that its a matter of degree. Between them, I believe enough in the human element to believe that  one will be slightly faster in a straight line.

I think it is more important to have the right design , and more important to be on the right part of the course with pressure and shirt......but if I am a billionaire putting together a challenge I want all three....brilliant designer - brilliant tactician-    .....and yes, a helm who can squeeze  0.5% of boat speed.
Nobody wants to undervalue Burling and Tuke, who are among the best in the world, but in the races of this AC, in my opinion, they never outsailed the Italian duo. On the contrary, besides in the starting where JS had clearly an edge, also in some pure MR duels, Bruni and Spithill were better and show some creative tactics like the one described by Jaysper.

 

cbulger

Member
274
177
Newport
Let's be honest, Ben Ainslie wuould have easily won the America's Cup, swapping boats with the Kiwis.
Whaaaat!

Ben is one of the greatest slow sailors ever - BUT - he is not a great foiling sailor.  I doubt he and his team could even figure out how to sail the Kiwi boat.  Glenn, Peter and Blair have 1000% more experience in foiling boats and they developed foil and aero trimming modes and maneuvers with their engineers that were years ahead of the competition.

Jet fighter pilots vs. bus driver.

And a bus driver who had to be CEO and entertain his owner while the Kiwi afterward were foiling.

 

strider470

Super Anarchist
Whaaaat!

Ben is one of the greatest slow sailors ever - BUT - he is not a great foiling sailor.  I doubt he and his team could even figure out how to sail the Kiwi boat.  Glenn, Peter and Blair have 1000% more experience in foiling boats and they developed foil and aero trimming modes and maneuvers with their engineers that were years ahead of the competition.

Jet fighter pilots vs. bus driver.

And a bus driver who had to be CEO and entertain his owner while the Kiwi afterward were foiling.
We will soon discover in SailGP if your quite bold statement is true. Ben can still teach some tricks to the kids, even foiling.

 

EYESAILOR

Super Anarchist
3,677
2,135
Whaaaat!

Ben is one of the greatest slow sailors ever - BUT - he is not a great foiling sailor.  I doubt he and his team could even figure out how to sail the Kiwi boat.  Glenn, Peter and Blair have 1000% more experience in foiling boats and they developed foil and aero trimming modes and maneuvers with their engineers that were years ahead of the competition.

Jet fighter pilots vs. bus driver.

And a bus driver who had to be CEO and entertain his owner while the Kiwi afterward were foiling.
I agree that Ben could not jump in kiwi boat and expect to be competitive.

However I do think it is jet pilot vs jet pilot.

Ben has won plenty of foiling races vs some of the most experienced foiling sailors in the world.  Ben started foiling in 2013. I'm not sure when  Peter/Blair started, was it much before then?...but I could be wrong.  I think that Peter's experience in the Moth class was uniquely useful and he won the 2015 moth worlds , so assuming he took some time to get that good, I expect he was probably also foiling around 2013.

 

dg_sailingfan

Super Anarchist
2,835
585
Augsburg
We will soon discover in SailGP if your quite bold statement is true. Ben can still teach some tricks to the kids, even foiling.
The Beauty of SailGP is that it is OD similar to the Volvo Ocean Race 2017/2018 so SailGP Season 2 will be won by the best Sailing Team and not who has the best Design & Fastest Boat.

 

southseasbill

Super Anarchist
1,934
190
Max not happy:

"“A dual event would be a disaster for the whole America's Cup world, as well as a farce,” Sirena told Corriere della Sera."

 

cbulger

Member
274
177
Newport
I agree that Ben could not jump in kiwi boat and expect to be competitive.

However I do think it is jet pilot vs jet pilot.

Ben has won plenty of foiling races vs some of the most experienced foiling sailors in the world.  Ben started foiling in 2013. I'm not sure when  Peter/Blair started, was it much before then?...but I could be wrong.  I think that Peter's experience in the Moth class was uniquely useful and he won the 2015 moth worlds , so assuming he took some time to get that good, I expect he was probably also foiling around 2013.
OK - bus driver is a bit harsh.  For a fund raiser/self-promoter, Ben has some foiling chops.

But when i think about winning the AC - its all about the quality of your speed development camps.  It was like that when I spent a little time sailing with DC on 12's and it is like that today.  Peter Burling has spent more time since 2010 than anyone else in high-performance speed camps - from 49er camps with NO when he was #1 in world, Moth camps with TS and other #1 sailors and A-Cat camps with the #1 speed wizard GA.  Shape foils, cut new sails, rig new controls, go sailing - REPEAT.  One thing that foiling has not changed is that developing speed is still all about time in the boats and feel.

No, I don't have the data, but Peter and company have to have spent 10x more time developing speed than BA has put in over the last decade.

 

Stingray~

Super Anarchist
12,439
3,403
PNW
Did I miss any posts about this?

The press release suggests that syndicates can build only one boat for AC37. If they promote some RtI exhibition race as an actual ‘Cup’ then would those two teams get the opportunity to leapfrog potential AC38 Challs, building even newer boats for that one? 

 


Latest posts



Top