The Australian Sailing and RQYS Kabuki Theatre Thread

Recidivist

Super Anarchist
Thanks Jack :-( I'm not the font of all knowledge.

A few observations that some above have failed to realise. Perhaps never used an AIS or even a VHF.

There are a number of reasons why a boat will not be identified on AIS much less Marine Traffic. Firstly the AIS ident is provided via VHF which is already a weak signal from a racing yacht and entirely dependant first of all on the transmission circuit. AIS was, after all, initially designed for vessels of over 300 tons which are an infinitely more stable transmission platform and being generally built in steel provide a much greater ground plane for radio transmission (read the books)

During my mi-spent youth (a long time ago) i was part of the CB Radio crazy that swept the UK. In fact i was secretary of a club of 4,800 - i was right into it.

If your 'rig' - the radio and antenna was tuned badly you would be lucky to be heard a few blocks away but get it right, particularly the SWR of the antenna and you could speak to the USA from the middle of England and I have done so. 

The AIS set up on most yachts uses a splitter to enable the same antenna to be used for both AIS and VHF transmissions. That in itself reduces the effectiveness (read reliability and range) of the signal of both transmissions and i bet like most yacht installations it has never had an SWR meter within half a mile of it.

On my own boat i eschew this set up and have a dedicated antenna for each system - a bit more clutter but a lot more reliability.

One also has to realise that it is all operating in a marine environment. Were the cable junctions secure and damp and salt free, the GPS and VHF connections on the AIS, the splitter (in and out).

I cannot see the NoR or SIs so cannot comment on the exact wording but there are a number of reasons why an AIS is ACTUALLY SWITCHED ON and the information not getting out through to Marine Traffic

Regarding the case in point, the boat radioed in pre-race that they seemed to have a problem and the fact that the Race Committee statement quoted as a fact found that they appeared intermittently would perhaps point to a fault somewhere in the antenna circuit. I seem to remember a 100 footer in a much longer race last year that was reportedly not transmitting AIS details correctly due to a claimed circuit fault.

The change in the published decision with point 4 being removed as hiding something is a wonderful but (I believe) completely pointless conspiracy theory. Point 4 appeared in the "Facts Found" part of the decision and in my opinion it was correctly removed because it wasn't a fact, it was an opinion.

It was also erroneous in that is it relatively easy to discover how efficient an antenna system is using a Sine Wave Ratio (SWR) Meter. To measure the SWR using a sound system you key the mike, to measure the AIS you just switch it on to transmit. Also if on switching on the AIS the SWR meter didn't deflect you would know instantly you had a problem (no signal coming down the coax) . Whether it was transmitting the position and other information  would be easy to check on another AIS receiver.

That said, these would be dockside checks and unlikely to be performed on the fly, especially when racing and a yacht is likely to be completely oblivious to the fact that they are "AIS invisible" unless specifically told so.

I use as a point of reference for this multiple conversations and advice over the years from my closest UK sailing buddy (and excellent mainsheet trimmer) who has spent his entire working career (40 years - he's an old bugger like me) with mobile communications all the way up to satellite dependant yacht telematics. (Look it up) AIS is a puppy by comparison.

My final comment i would direct to Shaggybaxter. I dare you to tell Nev Willis to his face that you have zero respect for him. I have worked with him and found him to be straight arrow. Apart from anything else he was only one of 4 Judges in this case, all of which hold various levels of Judge certification.

The actual decision? Well the RC are quoted as saying that the AIS reception from the yacht in question was intermittent. Does that not mean that they could be seen sometimes and not others? That points very strongly to a faulty system unless they were flicking it on and off which sounds pretty doubtful to me.

I may have missed something and the above is just some thoughts FROM A DISTANCE.

It's an absolute bugger being a judge or umpire. One party in the room is always going to be happy and the other party pissed off.

Come back at me if you think i am wrong - it is how we learn after all.

See ya on the water (soon i hope - bloody virus)

SS
SS, please - if you spent so much time playing with antennae, you should surely know that SWR stands for "Standing Wave Ratio", not "Sine Wave Ratio".  There's a lot of difference.

 

jack_sparrow

Super Anarchist
37,393
5,094
Thanks Jack :-( I'm not the font of all knowledge.

A few observations that some above have failed to realise. Perhaps never used an AIS or even a VHF.

There are a number of reasons why a boat will not be identified on AIS much less Marine Traffic.... 
Shang you could have stopped right there.  :lol:

My post was on the dual jury outcome where part of the facts found and conclusion was expunged. Any thoughts on that, if only frequency in your experience?

BTW online AIS platforms either getting their AIS data via terrestrial/marine providers or satellite providers (available on subscription) there is no guarantee of a constant connection. The former simply by being outside RX distance. This particular race course has large black holes despite being close to the coast.

The latter via satellite is pretty good but lower signal strength with lower powered Class B TX and transmission losses with small mast mounted antennas optimised for horizontal not skyward transmission.

Anyone trying to use these online AIS services to substantiate or otherwise a constant AIS TX transmission in the protest room will fail

That begs the question why it (Marinetraffic) was trotted out in this protest by both the protestee prerace and RC as protestor? The protest was doomed to fail.

Why the traditional means of declaration for dealing with safety equipment operation it seems is not being used in the protest room escspes me.  :lol:

 
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jack_sparrow

Super Anarchist
37,393
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My final comment i would direct to Shaggybaxter. I dare you to tell Nev Willis to his face that you have zero respect for him. I have worked with him and found him to be straight arrow. 
Bad move Shang...there is a very taudry back story. 

 

shanghaisailor

Super Anarchist
3,118
1,268
Shanghai, China
SS, please - if you spent so much time playing with antennae, you should surely know that SWR stands for "Standing Wave Ratio", not "Sine Wave Ratio".  There's a lot of difference.
:) Of course you are correct Recidivist.

When I first got into 2 way comms (40 years ago) it was told (erroneously) it was Sine Wave Ratio and it kind of stuck. As a young breaker all i was interested in was if i set the twig up with an SWR of less than 1.5 'whatevers' my transmission (and reception) dramatically improved. As my first set up was a Jaws 2 through to a Half Breed on a Yamaha 350LC which naturally had a relatively ground plane i needed all the help i could get. I later graduated to a Marko 747, '480 channel' rig with a 7' helical wound Tiger Stick bolted through my first car's boot lid (that's the trunk for US readers. We used to sit on a hill just north of Stoke on Trent in Staffordshire and DX with American Truckers. It as in a period of the right kind of sun activity to make the 'skip' off the ionosphere just right to bounce the signal. And all that was on just 27W of radiated power on SSB. I once had a conversation with a truckie who thought i was in New England and had to send him a QSL card to prove i was in "Mid England". He told me i was "blowing his doors off". It is not only sailing that has its own language.

It was fun times back then and we had to dodge the 'Post Office Radio Services because none of had licences (they weren't available) 

It's funny when someone tells you that something is such and such - like SWR = Sine Wave Radio is sticks even though you later learn the term is wrong.

Having said that a good SWR is VERY important for getting a good signal off your "twig". Twig being CB parlance for antenna.

I said i wasn't the font of all knowledge :)

Shang you could have stopped right there.  :lol:

My post was on the dual jury outcome where part of the facts found and conclusion was expunged. Any thoughts on that, if only frequency in your experience?

BTW online AIS platforms either getting their AIS data via terrestrial/marine providers or satellite providers (available on subscription) there is no guarantee of a constant connection. The former simply by being outside RX distance. This particular race course has large black holes despite being close to the coast.

The latter via satellite is pretty good but lower signal strength with lower powered Class B TX and transmission losses with small mast mounted antennas optimised for horizontal not skyward transmission.

Anyone trying to use these online AIS services to substantiate or otherwise a constant AIS TX transmission in the protest room will fail

That begs the question why it (Marinetraffic) was trotted out in this protest by both the protestee prerace and RC as protestor? The protest was doomed to fail.

Why the traditional means of declaration for dealing with safety equipment operation it seems is not being used in the protest room escspes me.  :lol:
You are probably right Jack, I can be a bit verbose at times :) Hope you are well.

 

shaggybaxter

Super Anarchist
4,508
2,550
Australia
My final comment i would direct to Shaggybaxter. I dare you to tell Nev Willis to his face that you have zero respect for him. I have worked with him and found him to be straight arrow. Apart from anything else he was only one of 4 Judges in this case, all of which hold various levels of Judge certification.
Hiya SS, 

I did by asking him to recuse himself from adjudicating my RfR, and did so without a hint of malice or bitchiness.  I went to quite calmly state all my evidence and he refused to let me speak. I then handed him my carefully written out evidence, and he refused to accept it and removed all evidence of it from the facts found. 
Aside from the red faced ranting and yelling until they forced a break he was the epitome of independent wise counci his position demands. After that it got a bit ugly, and not once was  any escalation from me.

I’m glad to hear your experience was different SS. 
Cheers,

SB

 

shanghaisailor

Super Anarchist
3,118
1,268
Shanghai, China
Hiya SS, 

I did by asking him to recuse himself from adjudicating my RfR, and did so without a hint of malice or bitchiness.  I went to quite calmly state all my evidence and he refused to let me speak. I then handed him my carefully written out evidence, and he refused to accept it and removed all evidence of it from the facts found. 
Aside from the red faced ranting and yelling until they forced a break he was the epitome of independent wise counci his position demands. After that it got a bit ugly, and not once was  any escalation from me.

I’m glad to hear your experience was different SS. 
Cheers,

SB
Apologies are due then Shaggy. Healthy Humble Pie portion on the menu this evening. A Protest Committee has a duty under RRS63.6 states "The protest committee SHALL take the evidence ....and of their witnesses". Shall in the rule means MUST, i think the term is an imperative, an "authorative command". If you were a party to the protest and felt AND declared that you felt there was a conflict of interest and that should have been ( I understand) written up in the protest document.RRS63.4(a). 

I don't know the full story and it is often difficult as a jury member or an umpire to please everyone but one has to be careful to not only be fair but be seen to be fair. 

 
Apologies are due then Shaggy. Healthy Humble Pie portion on the menu this evening. A Protest Committee has a duty under RRS63.6 states "The protest committee SHALL take the evidence ....and of their witnesses". Shall in the rule means MUST, i think the term is an imperative, an "authorative command". If you were a party to the protest and felt AND declared that you felt there was a conflict of interest and that should have been ( I understand) written up in the protest document.RRS63.4(a). 

I don't know the full story and it is often difficult as a jury member or an umpire to please everyone but one has to be careful to not only be fair but be seen to be fair. 
It’s all incestuous and that’s the problem.

 

MRS OCTOPUS

Anarchist
711
244
AUSTRALIA
Mrs Octopussy is strangely quiet. Normally she would trip over her dick rushing to defend ‘The glorious Squadron’. 
Hi stalker/ my play thingy.

Nice? to see you miss me ,cup cake.

Still trying to work out the fascination for this particular storm in a tea cup.

The squadron thingy is getting so “passé” these days. The bitter and twisted whiners really need to get a life or move to another club, that’s if the club hasn’t already moved them on.

bwahahaha

 
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shanghaisailor

Super Anarchist
3,118
1,268
Shanghai, China
It’s all incestuous and that’s the problem.
Incest - the game the whole family can play BUT if you really love someone/something (fairness in our sport) you should be able to put ego aside and do what's best and right for them/it (our sport and the competitor) not for your own self interest or influence.

Perhaps an obtuse reference but I would be horrified if I could ever be accused of a conflict.

I remember, some years ago, I spent a weekend coaching a Shanghai team on match racing. At the end of the weekend I told them to remember that if I was ever umpiring a match they were in they would just be another boat.

Not that many weeks later, sure enough it was them against another boat and they collected 2 penalties in the pre-start (wasn't much of a coach was I - ha ha). They crossed the start line and had room to sail clear and clear one penalty. 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - no attempt to clear - whistle - black! The look on their faces. I went up to them and "I bloody told you!" was all I said.

Reputation is everything. As a judge or an umpire you can be friendly but on the water or in the room you can have no favourites and if people realise that they respect you more not less.  

 
Perhaps an obtuse reference but I would be horrified if I could ever be accused of a conflict.

Reputation is everything. As a judge or an umpire you can be friendly but on the water or in the room you can have no favourites and if people realise that they respect you more not less.  
Not obtuse, but an observation. 
 

A number of judges are / or have been sailing managers at their clubs, some of them are / or have been flag officers, and some have commercial links to the club. Sadly I think that these sometimes cloud the views.
 

How can someone who has a commercial arrangement with an organisation sit on a panel that hears a protest involving the very people who decide how that commercial arrangement is structured, especially whilst said arrangement is being negotiated without declaring a conflict of interest?

 

jack_sparrow

Super Anarchist
37,393
5,094
That said, these would be dockside checks and unlikely to be performed on the fly, especially when racing and a yacht is likely to be completely oblivious to the fact that they are "AIS invisible" unless specifically told so.

Still trying to work out the fascination for this particular storm in a tea cup.
"...especially when racing and a yacht is likely to be completely oblivious to the fact that they are "AIS invisible" unless specifically told so."

"Still trying to work out the fascination for this  particular storm in a tea cup."

OK two birds one stone.

AIS operating as per race documents is no no different than any other piece of mandated equipment on board. There is a responsibilty clearly spelt out to the entrants responsibility to ensure they maintain it so. The skippers post race Declaration is the place where they confirm they have done so, OR if there is an issue for the RC to consider. 

First is to ensure everything pre-race is operating as per the race documents to enable an entry to be accepted. Liferafts checked, lifejackets and harnesses checked, EPIRB checked, PLB's checked, signalling devices checked, communication equipment checked and AIS checked. BTW guess which one of those often never seems to be properly checked by entrants, even though listed as being done? 

Secondly to checking AIS TX mid-race to enable the post race Declaration to be signed with confidence by the skipper/navigator, so even if there is a potential issue, all will be well, even in the protest room as a protestee. Failure of equipment, particularly electrical is not a hanging offence if reasonable steps are taken. 

There are a variety of quick and practical ways to check a AIS TX signal.

- The TX LED on the AIS unit itself and preferably remote alarmed.

- Play a AIS software diagnostic when operating incl quantify antenna status,

- Dial up a online AIS platform (preferably using subscription for AIS satellite feed **) and check in relation to boats sighted or known to be in the same postcode,

- Is AIS RX signal receipt looking normal, and

- If in doubt contact another competitor. Better still have a culture where other competitors tell each other if their RX signal looks shit, where protest is the last thing on people's mind. If that a concern then carve out competitor AIS protests just as the Convid Yacht Club have done for S2H.

With that a Declaration is made and the AIS rule is fully respected and there shouldn't be any issues.

However now and in recent times it clearly isn't, and in fact is being abused. I say abused because Declarations (that would reveal the above checks) are not being presented at RC protest hearings.

This should be an RC embarrassment, but it seems isnt. Isn't it their own saftey rule they are supposed to be policing??

In this Kepple protest AIS TX was a potential issue (confirmed by protestee pre-race), that may or may not have been resolved? There was no RC inspection so no one knows. Alternatively could it simply have been concocted as an insurance policy to thwart a potential competitor protest? Who knows.

What we do know is the concept of "self policing" goes down yet another notch in the sport courtesy of those who should know better, but clearly don't.

As for there being a jury hearing with two outcomes and where a significant section of the facts found and conclusion was "expunged"? Gobsmacked.

That "storm in the tea cup" must have washed all those unwanted or unpleasant things away.

______________________________

** AIS via Satellite. This shows the AIS history of three 100 footers in 2018 S2H. You can see where the VHF TX signals from 2 boats in same postcode were lost at around the same times.

This is on account they were out of satellite orbiting range for the same period where both have a very similiar AIS set up and so similiar TX capability.

This comprises Class B AIS powered VHF signal (lower than Class A), an oscillating mast mount (long, small guage inefficient coax cable run), a small "linear polarised" antenna radiating propogation horizontally (not vertically) and antenna shared with VHF voice, all that degrade the signal strength to and direction with AIS satellite receiver. 

That makes use of online AIS platforms (even via satellite feed when offshore out of range of terrestrial AIS relay recievers) as evidence used by any party in the jury room very questionable, except in certain circumstances. 

BTW the 3rd boat is highly regarded for its VMG running and terrestrial capability.  :lol:

2018 S2H - AIS via Satellite Record - 3 x 100 footers

IMG_20200809_114516.jpg

 
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shanghaisailor

Super Anarchist
3,118
1,268
Shanghai, China
Not obtuse, but an observation. 
 

A number of judges are / or have been sailing managers at their clubs, some of them are / or have been flag officers, and some have commercial links to the club. Sadly I think that these sometimes cloud the views.
 

How can someone who has a commercial arrangement with an organisation sit on a panel that hears a protest involving the very people who decide how that commercial arrangement is structured, especially whilst said arrangement is being negotiated without declaring a conflict of interest?
ha ha - I mean that comparing actual incest to this situation was perhaps obtuse, sorry for the confusion. If you really care about something you should either be totally non-conflicted or stand aside.

If someone expects preferential treatment that would take a situation outside the rules or even bend them then they are a lesser person and if anyone expected me to do so then they clearly don't know me very well. 

You are right though, if there is some other commercial arrangement it could quite easily cloud the issue although in my experience although there are judges/umpires that fall into the categories you mention above with their noses in some way "in the trough", the vast majority of those I have worked with are independent of such politics or financial pressure.  

 

LB 15

Cunt
Hi stalker/ my play thingy.

Nice? to see you miss me ,cup cake.

Still trying to work out the fascination for this particular storm in a tea cup.

The squadron thingy is getting so “passé” these days. The bitter and twisted whiners really need to get a life or move to another club, that’s if the club hasn’t already moved them on.

bwahahaha
Dance little puppet dance. All I have to do is clap my hands and say ‘Beatle juice’ and he appears.

fuck I love this place.

 

LB 15

Cunt
Not obtuse, but an observation. 
 

A number of judges are / or have been sailing managers at their clubs, some of them are / or have been flag officers, and some have commercial links to the club. Sadly I think that these sometimes cloud the views.
 

How can someone who has a commercial arrangement with an organisation sit on a panel that hears a protest involving the very people who decide how that commercial arrangement is structured, especially whilst said arrangement is being negotiated without declaring a conflict of interest?
The OA are his commercial land lord. And he made a formal complaint previously about the person who was central to the appeal. 

Little wonder that club is now a punchline.

 
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LB 15

Cunt
ha ha - I mean that comparing actual incest to this situation was perhaps obtuse, sorry for the confusion. If you really care about something you should either be totally non-conflicted or stand aside.

If someone expects preferential treatment that would take a situation outside the rules or even bend them then they are a lesser person and if anyone expected me to do so then they clearly don't know me very well. 

You are right though, if there is some other commercial arrangement it could quite easily cloud the issue although in my experience although there are judges/umpires that fall into the categories you mention above with their noses in some way "in the trough", the vast majority of those I have worked with are independent of such politics or financial pressure.  
In my experience they are normally quite professional. Normally I said.

 




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