The Front Almost Fell Off....

oocher

New member
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1
absolutely.. and whatever you do while doing a 200 degree turn to avoid disaster, do not ease any sheets, espescially the main

 

Ex Machina

Super Anarchist
1,236
555
New Zealand
Outside of the us and maybe Canada, English speaking sailors tend to refer to all current as “tide” whether tidal or not. Not sure who wrote fp blurb.  For those of you who think a word is inaccurately used on a site where which much of the content comes from non-us contributors, google before opening mouth and inserting foot. Here Endeth the PSA
Yeah na , we have currents in our “lakes “ where it outflows downstream perpetually in one direction.

Tide comes in and goes out on the sea ….but that’s here and we are a bit primitive 

 

AnotherSailor

Super Anarchist
1,276
403
SF Bay
The commercial boat was a bit of an idiot. It should have sounded 1 short blast to let him know that he was coming to starboard instead of sounding 5 short ones which don't tell you much about what to do.
Nope, the channel turns here, so the ship is just following the channel. No need to indicate he is coming to starboard. If he would go straight he would run aground...

5 horns tell you very well what to do: get the fuck out of here or you will be run over!

had an issue a couple weeks back.  tooling along at 3-4kts  stbd tack traveling west to east in the center of the Chesapeake bay halfway between Thomas point light and bloody point.  water depth 50-60' for a 1/4mile all around.

tugboat pushing a full barge toward poplar island tooling along at 10kts.   we crossed his bow 200yds away. He tooted his horn once, when he passed behind us he was 50 yards astern.  he did not alter course  when he was astern i waved (friendly wave)  he comes out of his wheel house and screams "asshole"

Yes I can understand a bit from his POV that if the wind had died and I didn't fire up the motor,  i'd be fucked.  and I did entertain the thought the of firing up the motor and squirting across his path, but my dead reckoning based on current speed had me crossing at what i though was a safe distance...

was i the asshole?
You don't sound like an asshole, but that sounds like a reckless action. If you can hear the words "asshole" you are too close. I really don't understand why people get in front of commercial ships. These ships are typically extremely limited in terms of avoiding a collision. A tug boat with a full barge has a lot of momentum. Changing direction is SLOOOOOOOOOW. On top of that they are on a job, you are out there on a sail for fun, adding stress to their job. Not cool. The alternative is to either tack/gybe alter course to go behind, or just slow down for a minute. You will be at your destination a minute later, which is really a lot better than being run over.

 

Panoramix

Super Anarchist
Nope, the channel turns here, so the ship is just following the channel. No need to indicate he is coming to starboard. If he would go straight he would run aground...

5 horns tell you very well what to do: get the fuck out of here or you will be run over!
The "stand on" vessel does not have any right of way over the "give way" vessel and has to keep a constant course and speed, so the sailboat who was going out of the way of the commercial vessel before it initiated a turn was doing the "right thing" acoording to COLREGS and the serie of 1, 2 or 3 short blast is precisely for these kind of situations when the "big one" has to manoeruvre. IME commercial vessels signal their intention when they change course in tight areas, the 5 blasts is what they use for people who ignore COLREGS.

I double checked in COLREGS and it is actually a requirement :

When vessels are in sight of one another, a power-driven vessel underway, when manoeuvring as authorized or
required by these Rules, shall indicate that manoeuvre by the following signals on her whistle:  

  • one short blast to mean “I am altering my course to starboard”;  
  • two short blasts to mean “I am altering my course to port”;  
  • three short blasts to mean “I am operating astern propulsion”. 

 
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European Bloke

Super Anarchist
3,407
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The "stand on" vessel does not have any right of way over the "give way" vessel and has to keep a constant course and speed, so the sailboat who was going out of the way of the commercial vessel before it initiated a turn was doing the "right thing" acoording to COLREGS and the serie of 1, 2 or 3 short blast is precisely for these kind of situations when the "big one" has to manoeruvre. IME commercial vessels signal their intention when they change course in tight areas, the 5 blasts is what they use for people who ignore COLREGS.

I double checked in COLREGS and it is actually a requirement :
You're reading the wrong part of the col regs 

Rule 9 says if you're a small boat, and a large vessel in in a narrow channel, then stay the fuck out of the way.

The large vessel is concentrating on staying in the channel and dealing with other large vessels also using the channel. They don't want to piss about with you in any way. No hooting, no stand on, no bollocks.

 

coyotepup

Anarchist
793
140
Michigan
I've sailed through there and my son drives tankers in and out of Sarnia. That's a tough passage for the big guys and slowing down is not much of an option. Best way up for a sailboat is under motor on the Canadian side, where you can actually get a little favourable current in front of the Casino. Best ride down is on the US side in lots of current. This is complicated by the current COVID rules about not crossing the border even if you don't land. We have been re-routing a bunch of our races in eastern Lake Ontario and the St. Lawrence to avoid entering US waters, still forbidden for non-US boats. Does anybody know how it's working practically in the St. Clair and Detroit Rivers?
Windsor Yacht Club is running their Wednesdays again and US boats can cross over to Canadian waters.  But I haven't seen any Canadian boats in US waters, because the US government is still being dicks about the border.

 

Panoramix

Super Anarchist
You're reading the wrong part of the col regs 

Rule 9 says if you're a small boat, and a large vessel in in a narrow channel, then stay the fuck out of the way.

The large vessel is concentrating on staying in the channel and dealing with other large vessels also using the channel. They don't want to piss about with you in any way. No hooting, no stand on, no bollocks.
I don't deny that the sailboat has to stay out of the way, I am just saying that the commercial boat has to signal before changing course, it didn't...

 

blunted

Super Anarchist
1,517
366
Toronto
In my experience with Lakers and barges in confined quarters, it's always seemed easiest to simply have a handheld VHF in the cockpit and to use it. That and be prepared to fire up the engine if there is any doubt about keeping the situation under control.

We do a TGIF in the cruising beast and the race takes us through a constrained channel from harbor to lake often in light air with 50 boats trying to sneak up the channel. A few weeks ago we had that situation and I insisted to my father who was driving (80, somewhat obstinate) that we would fire up the engine if required to maintain steerage and keep the fuck away from the bulk carrier coming through the channel at the time, We did indeed use the engine for a mere 40 seconds, and yes the key is always in the ignition for that reason and yes it was the right thing to do at the time. had we not we would have ended up without steerage in his lee and quite likely trading paint.

On another occasion we were doing nicely at 7 knots approaching the channel and we had a tug / barge combo barreling in at about 12 knots both of us converging perfectly at the channel marker ahead. I got on the radio and hailed the captain and asked if we could cross, he said no problem, adjusted his course slightly and thanked me for actually calling him. It seems a little communication can go a long way.

My default however is to assume that we are a PITA to them and should simply give them a few hundred feet clearance if possible or at the very least make it clear by our heading that we intend to avoid them.

 
Just another day sailing in Port Huron Michigan. We dodge freighters regularly if we sail in the river!

Obviously my friend on Intrepid was NOT paying attention well. Usually we leave our engines at idle for just such an emergency.

You should see this when we have the annual River Race!

 

PirateDave

Member
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06385
And the moral of the story is that Captain Chatchie learned and will now never forget what a whistle signal of five blasts means......................

 

AnotherSailor

Super Anarchist
1,276
403
SF Bay
The "stand on" vessel does not have any right of way over the "give way" vessel and has to keep a constant course and speed, so the sailboat who was going out of the way of the commercial vessel before it initiated a turn was doing the "right thing" acoording to COLREGS and the serie of 1, 2 or 3 short blast is precisely for these kind of situations when the "big one" has to manoeruvre. IME commercial vessels signal their intention when they change course in tight areas, the 5 blasts is what they use for people who ignore COLREGS.

I double checked in COLREGS and it is actually a requirement :
I don't want to go sailing with you!

 

Panoramix

Super Anarchist
I don't want to go sailing with you!
I've crossed the English channel too many times to count (one of the busiest shipping channel), raced across shipping lanes, sailed in places extremely busy with commercial traffic, learnt before AIS was a thing, plotted CPA in foggy situations and never ever had a close call. IME if everybody sticks to the rules it is easy and I find the attitudes of these US commercial and leisure boats scary (there was another one of these scary videos of an instance where a motorboat was standon vessel but not keeping watch and the ferry was signaling 5 short blasts while not altering course ) and IMO the muppetry is shared.

Cristoforo said:
Can you cite that regulation please?

The Cuyahoga made 5 short blasts early on 

—INLAND— Sound and Light Signals RULE 34 Maneuvering and Warning Signals (a) When power-driven vessels are in sight of one another and meeting or crossing at a distance within half a mile of each other, each vessel underway, when maneuvering as authorized or required by these Rules: (i) shall indicate that maneuver by the following signals on her whistle: one short blast to mean “I intend to leave you on my port side”; two short blasts to mean “I intend to leave you on my starboard side”; and three short blasts to mean “I am operating astern propulsion”. (ii) upon hearing the one or two blast signal of the other shall, if in agreement, sound the same whistle signal and take the steps necessary to effect a safe passing. If, however, from any cause, the vessel doubts the safety of the proposed maneuver, she shall sound the danger signal specified in paragraph (d) of this Rule and each vessel shall take appropriate precautionary action until a safe passing agreement is made. (b) A vessel may supplement the whistle signals prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule by light signals: (i) These signals shall have the following significance: one flash to mean “I intend to leave you on my port side”; two flashes to mean “I intend to leave you on my starboard side”; three flashes to mean “I am operating astern propulsion”; (ii) The duration of each flash shall be about 1 second; and (iii) The light used for this signal shall, if fitted, be one all-round white or yellow light, visible at a minimum range of 2 miles, synchronized with the whistle, and shall comply with the provisions of Annex I to these Rules.
We don't have the same version of COLREGS, what's your source ?

Rule 34
Manoeuvring and warning signals

When vessels are in sight of one another, a power-driven vessel underway, when manoeuvring as authorized or
required by these Rules, shall indicate that manoeuvre by the following signals on her whistle:  

  • one short blast to mean “I am altering my course to starboard”;  
  • two short blasts to mean “I am altering my course to port”;  
  • three short blasts to mean “I am operating astern propulsion”. 


I am not condoning the sailboat actions who clearly wasn't in the smartest place, just saying that the merchant boat did not behave to the standards most commercial boats do IME as he didn't signal that he was coming to starboard which was a crucial piece of information and was a COLREG requirement (Rule 34 quoted above).

 

Panoramix

Super Anarchist
n my experience with Lakers and barges in confined quarters, it's always seemed easiest to simply have a handheld VHF in the cockpit and to use it. That and be prepared to fire up the engine if there is any doubt about keeping the situation under control.
+1

That is also true with ferries and big merchant ships. With AIS, it is easy and I always call them and ask "What are your intentions please ?"

 

coyotepup

Anarchist
793
140
Michigan
I am not condoning the sailboat actions who clearly wasn't in the smartest place, just saying that the merchant boat did not behave to the standards most commercial boats do IME as he didn't signal that he was coming to starboard which was a crucial piece of information and was a COLREG requirement (Rule 34 quoted above).
You're using international COLREGS.  Cristoforo is using United States inland COLREGS, which apply here.

https://nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/publications/coast-pilot/docs/NavigationRulesStandardSize.pdf

The international rules you cite don't apply on the St. Clair River.  The inland version of the rule is as follows:

(a) When power-driven vessels are in sight of one another and meeting or crossing at a distance within half a mile of each other, each vessel underway, when maneuvering as authorized or required by these Rules, (i) shall indicate that maneuver by the following signals on her whistle: One short blasts to mean “I intend to leave you on my port side” Two short blasts to mean “I intend to leave you on my starboard side” Three short blasts to mean “I am operating astern propulsion” (ii) upon hearing the one or two blast signal of the other shall, if in agreement, sound the same whistle signal and take the steps necessary to effect a safe passing. If, however, from any cause, the vessel doubts the safety of the proposed maneuver, she shall sound the signal specified in Rule 34(d) and each vessel shall take appropriate precautionary action until a safe passing agreement is made.
There is no inland rule requiring the Cuyahoga to blast her horn every time she makes a maneuver, and rightly so.  The St. Clair River is narrow with many turns and at any given time will probably have several freighters in it.  The constant blasting of horns every time a freighter makes a left or right turn on the river would be annoying and thoroughly useless.  And the inland version of the Rule 34 you cite only applies between two power-driven vessels, so there's no obligation on the part of the Cuyahoga to sound any horns, except for five short.)

 

Panoramix

Super Anarchist
@coyotepup

OK, so he didn't have to sound a short blast....

a single blast would still have been more informative and less noisy than 5 blasts! From the sailboat actions it was obvious that the sailboat skipper was confused and assuming wrongly that the freighter was intending to cross him starboard to starboard, IMO telling him his intentions was the safe thing to do. Even worse when the event is over he sends 2 blasts (may be giving up midway on another set of 5 blasts ?) which means I am coming to portside while he is not! Not very professional...

 

coyotepup

Anarchist
793
140
Michigan
@coyotepup

OK, so he didn't have to sound a short blast....

a single blast would still have been more informative and less noisy than 5 blasts! From the sailboat actions it was obvious that the sailboat skipper was confused and assuming wrongly that the freighter was intending to cross him starboard to starboard, IMO telling him his intentions was the safe thing to do. Even worse when the event is over he sends 2 blasts (may be giving up midway on another set of 5 blasts ?) which means I am coming to portside while he is not! Not very professional...
If we're going to be really precise and pedantic about the rulebook, 34a of the inland COLREGS is for two power-driven vessels meeting one another, so there's no reason to give that single blast.

Second, take it from a local.  I race near these freighters all the time and so does every racer on the east side of Michigan and in southern Ontario.  I've been up at the exact spot where that incident took place dozens of times.  Everyone from this area knows what the freighters are going to do because of how limited they are in draft and how they have no choice but to stick to the channel.  The freighters are all going up or down the channel, period, and nowhere else.  They're incapable of arranging passages to one side or the other or playing dodge'em with every sailboat in the channel, and every local knows this.  The skipper was not confused about the freighter's intentions and certainly did not think the Cuyahoga was going starboard to starboard because that would've basically required the Cuyahoga to run aground on the US side of the river.  The video is at a big right turn in the river, so even if somehow he didn't know what the freighter would do, he damn sure should've.  He either wasn't paying attention or thought he could get across the channel before the freighter got there.

 

fastyacht

Super Anarchist
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Pano needs to watch that again. Just like I said way up thread, that helmsman on the CUYAHOGA called it like a boss. He anticipated the sailboat, he turned early to stbd FARTHER than his natural course, he missed the sailboat, then he abruptle corrected back to port to get to the preferred deepa part of the channel and then back to stbd to continue the sweeper turn going upstream.

That steamship crew deserves accolades period.

BTW the CUYAHOGA may be the very ship that woke me up at 4AM while sleeping in the Loraine CG station many many years ago. 1993?. Very impressive to watch a big Laker come in through a hard 40 knot northerly blow at night, and take the quayside like nothing special.

 


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