The future of diesel inboards in an all electric future

12 metre

Super Anarchist
4,004
780
English Bay
Different power is lost at different stages

1-2% of energy is lost during the step-up transformer from when the electricity is generated to when it is transmitted.
2-4% of energy is lost in the transmission lines
1-2% of energy is lost during the step-down of the transform from the transmission line to distribution.
4-6% of energy is lost during the distribution

So, the average loss of power between the power plant and consumers ranges between 8-15%.

Source: https://chintglobal.com/blog/how-much-power-loss-in-transmission-lines/


Electrical (Coulometric) Efficiency

The ratio of the energy required to charge a battery compared to the available energy during discharge is referred to as the efficiency. A typical lithium ion battery will lose only 5% of energy round-trip (95% efficiency), compared to 20-25% losses for lead-acid systems.

Both lead-acid and lithium-ion technologies perform well with regards to self-discharge, with losses of around 5% of capacity per month. In frequent cycling applications this loss is of little consequence.

Source: https://batterytestcentre.com.au/project/lithium-ion/


Add to that the inefficiencies of generation when one energy source has to be turned into another:

Coal/Natural Gas (NG)/Liquid Petroleum Gas (LPG) electrical generation
Thanks. So not as much as I thought - I was thinking maybe 20% transmission loss.

I would think the turbines used in fossil fuel power plants would be more efficient than ICE engines as far as power output/input.

So maybe a near saw off between the two?
 

12 metre

Super Anarchist
4,004
780
English Bay
kind of silly. powerboats outnumber motor boats about 10:1.

how you gonna power your motor boat? lol.
I think you meant powerboats outnumber sailboats about 10:1. Or am I wrong in that assumption?

If you're saying sailboats should be exempt, the problem I see would be that some powerboat builders would come out with a Super Mac (twin 200 OB's with a 3 foot mast that could fit half a bedsheet) and call it a sailboat.
 

Talchotali

Capt. Marvel's Wise Friend
497
252
Vancouverium BC
... to drive an EV one mile than fuel consumed to drive an ICE vehicle one mile (various conversion and transmission losses and all)?
A late 1980's Charade turbodiesel fitted with the five-speed manual transmission was capable of 2.74 L/100 km (85.9 mpg‑US) with two adults on board (US Highway test for the period)

A gallon of diesel weighs 7 pounds (US Gallon, approx, changes with temperature)

To go 100 miles would require 1.14 gallons / 7.98 pounds of diesel fuel


A Tesla model 3 weighs 4065 lbs. The long range model 3 battery has 4416, 2170 cells, grouped in 96 modules of 46 batteries per module. The weight of this battery is 1060 lbs (480Kg). To go 100 miles also requires 1060 lbs of battery.

One quarter of the weight of a model 3 is the fuel system (short range or full 310 mile range)

An early 1990's Charade weighs 1,720–1,920 lb (780–870 kg). Its full fuel tank weighs 1/27th of the weight of the vehicle (10 gallons/range of 860 miles).

The weight of fuel equals 1/27th of the gross weight of the vehicle (range of 860 miles) or 1/240th (range of 100 miles)


Observations:

A quarter of the weight of an electric car is battery storage. You are always hauling that weight around if you drive a mile or the full available range.

A gallon of diesel is one of the most efficient ways to store energy, and you can carry only the amount you need.

To address any concerns of the use of a 1990's car in the illustrative comparison above, consider an early 2005 Volkswagen Lupo 3L TDI gets 94.2 mpg, meets the Euro safety and emissions standards of the era, and would have 10-15% better performance than the Charade referenced.

A modern (2022) Lupo-sized vehicle is thought to have 25 to 35% better performance vs. the Charade referenced above and would meet current safety and emissions standards.
 
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On a long distance race where I need to recharge my batteries, can I...

You can call Amazon! They will fly to you a drone recharger station.

This is the best thing about all things electric (cars, batteries, green-ness, etc...) is that you can just suspend common sense, logic and the the laws of physics. Electric [noun-goes-here] will solve every world problem!

Cramming a (green symbol) tree into the patent drawing is a nice touch.

Now if Bezos could just patent a method for flying sailing yachts over bridges...

From greentechmedia.com:

New Amazon Drones Will Charge Your Car While You Drive

When everything else is on demand, why not have the charger come to you?

EMMA FOEHRINGER, MERCHANT, OCTOBER 09, 2017
New Amazon Drones Will Charge Your Car While You Drive

New Amazon Drones Will Charge Your Car While You Drive
Photo Credit: Detail from Amazon patent


The U.S. Patent Office recently granted Amazon a patent for roving drones that can latch onto electric vehicles and extend their range with an infusion of energy.

The online powerhouse already sells home charging stations, Tesla touch-up paint and biographies of Elon Musk. But this patent makes its link to the electric-vehicle market much more tangible. And it has the potential to solve several persistent problems in the electric vehicle market: charging infrastructure and range anxiety.

Charging infrastructure has been growing in dense urban areas, particularly in places like California, but vast swaths of the country still have limited resources. A mobile, mid-drive recharge offers a tantalizingly easy way around the quandary of searching for a charger while road tripping through remote stretches of landscape.

Even in city driving, it's possible to worry about getting stuck in traffic with a battery running low. Not so if a swarm of helpful battery bots can zip out of the sky and top you off

A 2016 GTM Research report notes that electric-vehicle charging has already experienced tumult with company bankruptcies and cost barriers to implementation. The report lists companies such as Tesla, Siemens and General Electric as major players in the charging game.

Since that report was released, oil and gas major Royal Dutch Shell announced it will invest in smart charging stations, and cities and states have published a copious number of reports on how to improve charging infrastructure to encourage electric-vehicle use.

But few, if any, of these corporations and governments have direct and daily interaction with the public on the level of Amazon, a company which quite literally touches all aspects of many people’s lives (especially the wealthy, young urbanites who are more likely to have the funds and interest necessary to be early adopters of electric vehicles). That penetration is part of Amazon’s strategy -- and its success.

“We’ve had three big ideas at Amazon that we’ve stuck with,” founder Jeff Bezos has said. “They’re the reason we’re successful: Put the customer first. Invent. And be patient.”

The patent describes a process where Amazon’s drones can communicate with electric vehicles out on the road through servers that monitor energy usage and need.

Servers relay energy requests to drones, which would then be dispatched to meet vehicles on the road. The drones would authenticate the connection, attach to a vehicle connector on the roof or door and start fueling -- even if the car is in motion.
Amazon_ev_charger_tree_XL_1482_1162_80.jpg

Run out of charge while looking at a diminutive tree? Amazon has you covered. (Detail from Amazon patent)

The whole process sounds technologically thrilling, as it is with the aircraft that pull off in-air refueling to stay aloft on a mission. In Amazon's version, there would be no human pilot handling the maneuver.

A similar process could also deliver traditional fuels, the patent notes. But the technology has more opportunity to disrupt electric-vehicle charging and dwarf the nearly 45,000 public chargers now installed in the United States.

The commercialization of this process is still a ways off. Would it come as part of an Amazon Prime subscription? How do you order one while driving? What's the range on the drones themselves?

However it goes, this wouldn't be Amazon's first foray into the advanced car space.

The patent comes a year after the announcement that Amazon’s virtual personal assistant, Alexa, would be featured in the models of three Ford electric cars. Maybe that answers the practical question of ordering a refill: "Alexa, send me your nearest drone battery."

In recent years, lithium-ion battery costs have fallen precipitously, while hydrogen remains quite an expensive alternative. The new patent may demonstrate that Amazon hopes to stake out a piece of the traditional battery market, as well.

Amazon's true intentions, though, are hard to surmise because of its tight-lipped culture. “Jeff Bezos’ e-commerce and cloud-storage giant is opaque,” Farhad Manjoo wrote in August of last year for The New York Times. “It values surprise.”
 

Coastal_Fox

Member
286
127
New England
It might sound silly, but provided we don't blow ourselves back to the 19th century, i expect most rear earth material mining and processing to be done on the moon in the next 50-75 years. Most heavy industry in general.
We try never to use the engine In or outboard. I get so tired of having to make sure all the crappy fuel is out of the carb so it does not gum up.
I understand the company that was making the cng/propane OB's went out of business. Too bad it was not pushed more.
I've always been taught to fear propane on a boat. I suppose with proper bilge ventilation ect though, might not be any worse than gasoline. Though im not sure which one is heavier.
It's lead acid batteries the generator I have would need modification to cope with lithium, I didn't have the time to sort that and getting it wrong would have got very expensive.

This system works well for me, the most common trip is from the moorings to the sailing club, as she's often used for accommodation if there's a evening event on.. I can drink what I like and not drive home. Also during two day sailing events and regatta week, we can moor on the club house quay after racing.
For those small trips I don't run the generator, the solar panels will keep the batteries charged.
For longer trips, I'll run up the generator it reduces the number of battery cycles taken and gives a much longer range.
When I have time, the cooking facilities become electric as well, a fridge can be cooled well down with the generator on. heating will be diesel.

Oh the Genny is in a quiet box, it's very much quieter than the old tired engine..
How well does the generator keep up with the battery drain? For instance, if you needed to motor and it was overcast, would the generator keep the motor running until it was out of fuel? Or is it kind of a 1 step forward 2 steps back situation?
 

solosailor

Super Anarchist
4,224
918
San Francisco Bay
Some missions (example: the doldrums on the way to Hawai'i) are best done with ICE/diesel as you will never beat the energy efficiency of a gallon of diesel.
You're be a bit off course if you're in the doldrums. Pacific High is what you were shooting for and usually only people coming from Hawaii motor through that.
 

Monkey

Super Anarchist
11,078
2,712
kind of silly. powerboats outnumber motor boats about 10:1.

how you gonna power your motor boat? lol.
With electric. I hate to say it, but change is coming. I work for the builder of the biggest gas guzzling consumer boat conglomerate out there. We’ll hold out as long as we can, but we’re already playing around with electric options and buying up all kinds of battery companies.
 

kiwin

Member
366
237
Auckland
pretty much in effect now w gas/fuel prices getting to green huggers liking

people are still consuming But Peter or Paul will soon Not be getting paid

change/crash commin

You MUST pretty much FUCK-Up the earth to get the shit for modern/future Electric Shit

as was the case beginning w the NUKE-Juice

if you can't figure out how to deal with the Spent-Uranium of today

WTF are you going to do with the 100's lbs per-person minimum of Spent-Lithium etc

when all the Batts that didn't catch Fire reach the end

Those Most Green are the ones Harvesting and stocking the Earth with Hazardous Waste that will Fuck-Up the earth for like thousands of years

Let's figure out how to make Spent-Uranium "GREEN" Again as it was Before we made it what it is today

Before Fucking-Up the Earth to StockPile Lithium etc.

ONLY Leaves of Plant & Trees (moss, fglowers etc) are GREEN
That post is distilled wilfull ignorance mixed with misinformation and even more bullshit.
 

kiwin

Member
366
237
Auckland
That post is distilled wilfull ignorance mixed with misinformation and even more bullshit.
For most of the world battery electric vehicles will reach price parity with combustion engined vehicles around 2027. From that point ice vehicles will be a vanishing breed. Even farm machinery is going electric, and anything electric is so much cheaper to run and maintain that the end of diesel is inevitable. So it's just a question of when. For some use cases where diesel is not easily replaceable with batteries - like cruising boats - I imagine another similar liquid fuel may be available, though at what cost I can't imagine.
 

The Q

Super Anarchist
How well does the generator keep up with the battery drain? For instance, if you needed to motor and it was overcast, would the generator keep the motor running until it was out of fuel? Or is it kind of a 1 step forward 2 steps back situation?
Yes the Genny will keep the motor running till it runs out of fuel, then it's what's left in the batteries till they die.
The system is serial, there must be batteries , or you'll fry the generator, Generator to batteries to controller to motor.
The generator is 4kW, the electric motor is 10kW 3 phase, but it's extremely rare to be using full power. Most of the time I'm not even using 1/3 motor power. As I bring up the drive power, it's not until I get to about 2/3 max speed you can hear the generator begin to load up and that is exceeding the 4mph moorings / sensitive areas speed limit.

Since the boat had a new ish stainless diesel tank, and it will use diesel heater as well I retained the full sized tank which I think is about 50 gallons (60 US gallons). The tank should give us a range in excess of 800 miles no heating used. Many times more than I'm ever going to need.

Note, this is inland waterways, the speed limits are no higher than 6mph often 4mph.

A conventional diesel 40ft hire motorboat might use 2ltr an hour,

My boat is 27ft, 2.6tons so max displacement speed is just about 8mph and in old straight diesel mode was around 1ltr an hour.
The big saving on fuel is the short journeys, cold diesels use a lot more fuel than hot long journeys and as I mentioned I do a lot of short journeys.

To keep it simple for the tourists in hire boats, speed limits etc are all in mph not knots...
 

MiddayGun

Super Anarchist
1,191
450
Yorkshire
A late 1980's Charade turbodiesel fitted with the five-speed manual transmission was capable of 2.74 L/100 km (85.9 mpg‑US) with two adults on board (US Highway test for the period)

A gallon of diesel weighs 7 pounds (US Gallon, approx, changes with temperature)

To go 100 miles would require 1.14 gallons / 7.98 pounds of diesel fuel


A Tesla model 3 weighs 4065 lbs. The long range model 3 battery has 4416, 2170 cells, grouped in 96 modules of 46 batteries per module. The weight of this battery is 1060 lbs (480Kg). To go 100 miles also requires 1060 lbs of battery.

One quarter of the weight of a model 3 is the fuel system (short range or full 310 mile range)

An early 1990's Charade weighs 1,720–1,920 lb (780–870 kg). Its full fuel tank weighs 1/27th of the weight of the vehicle (10 gallons/range of 860 miles).

The weight of fuel equals 1/27th of the gross weight of the vehicle (range of 860 miles) or 1/240th (range of 100 miles)


Observations:

A quarter of the weight of an electric car is battery storage. You are always hauling that weight around if you drive a mile or the full available range.

A gallon of diesel is one of the most efficient ways to store energy, and you can carry only the amount you need.

To address any concerns of the use of a 1990's car in the illustrative comparison above, consider an early 2005 Volkswagen Lupo 3L TDI gets 94.2 mpg, meets the Euro safety and emissions standards of the era, and would have 10-15% better performance than the Charade referenced.

A modern (2022) Lupo-sized vehicle is thought to have 25 to 35% better performance vs. the Charade referenced above and would meet current safety and emissions standards.

I'm not sure why you'd choose a lightweight eighties vehicles weight rather than the modern ICE equivalent? Outside of exotic materials, the only way we're getting cars electric or ICE of that weight is if people give up 30 years of road safety, electric windows / central locking / power steering / AC and basically every modern convenience. Seems unlikely to happen.

A better comparison would be against a Golf which is 1,800kg for the 5 door TDI version or a 3 series BMW 320d which is around 1400-1500kg depending on spec. I realise you mention this later in your post, but you're still comparing a large saloon car to a tiny hatchback. (which real world will never get 91mpg)
I doubt most the people upset at moving to electric would want to drive a Lupo either.

Weight is a factor in getting up to speed, but its important to remember that once at motorway speeds, most losses come from air resistance, not weight, & that electric cars with regenerative braking are able to reclaim a proportion of the kinetic energy. (which of course doesn't apply to boats at all)

But we've digressed a little, this is a sailing forum, good or bad electric cars are the future according to current gov policies, and its the knock on effect I'm interested in.

As sailing boats, our diesel use is minimal, but when legislators look, they not only see us as an easy target, they see the powerboats, and some of them really like to glug the fuel, 200-400 litres an hour or more in some cases for larger boats, it seems to me that the type of blunt legislation that government likes would impact us even if aimed at them.
That's not to even speak of the mega yachts around the world that use a ton of fuel a day just to keep the AC running.

@Talchotali I don't know the figures, but I imagine the equivalent losses to transport fuel to fuel stations & around the world is probably as significant as transmission losses if not more so.
 

Marcjsmith

Super Anarchist
3,992
1,130
Washington DC
I’m in the landscape industry. And the shift to electric has started. Personally...I believe the blower bans being put in place under The guise of noise pollution have their roots with air pollution. The two stroke gas lawnboy push mower of the past are gone. Gas powered blowers seem to the new target, are string trimmers and chainsaw next? Or the riding mower? We’ve started the shift to battery power at work, I’ve made the shift at home. I will say that being able to punch a button and the equipment works. Is nice. Down side is when it doesn’t work. I know I don’t have skill set to fix it.

Are sailboats going to be a target? Not right away. Maybe they’ll start with “noise makers” first. People that are outThere drawing attention to themselves. Jet ski, wake board boats, etc.

My moody has a 55 gallon fuel tank. I filled up once last season. Would I be a good candidate to go electric? Yeah. But I still have to be at work Monday, and if I need to get across the bay on Sunday and there is no wind...I’m now a power boat and it would take a bunch of battery to do that....one day. Maybe...
 


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