The future of diesel inboards in an all electric future

Foredeck Shuffle

More of a Stoic Cynic, Anarchy Sounds Exhausting
The amount of waste energy is much higher, most lost as waste heat.
Energy_2021_United-States.png

Different power is lost at different stages

1-2% of energy is lost during the step-up transformer from when the electricity is generated to when it is transmitted.
2-4% of energy is lost in the transmission lines
1-2% of energy is lost during the step-down of the transform from the transmission line to distribution.
4-6% of energy is lost during the distribution

So, the average loss of power between the power plant and consumers ranges between 8-15%.

Source: https://chintglobal.com/blog/how-much-power-loss-in-transmission-lines/

Electrical (Coulometric) Efficiency

The ratio of the energy required to charge a battery compared to the available energy during discharge is referred to as the efficiency. A typical lithium ion battery will lose only 5% of energy round-trip (95% efficiency), compared to 20-25% losses for lead-acid systems.

Both lead-acid and lithium-ion technologies perform well with regards to self-discharge, with losses of around 5% of capacity per month. In frequent cycling applications this loss is of little consequence.

Source: https://batterytestcentre.com.au/project/lithium-ion/

Add to that the inefficiencies of generation when one energy source has to be turned into another:

Coal/Natural Gas (NG)/Liquid Petroleum Gas (LPG) electrical generation
 

floater

Super Duper Anarchist
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quivira regnum
With electric. I hate to say it, but change is coming. I work for the builder of the biggest gas guzzling consumer boat conglomerate out there. We’ll hold out as long as we can, but we’re already playing around with electric options and buying up all kinds of battery companies.
okay. and the teeny little auxiliaries in a sailboat seem as nothing compared to the shiny and modern big-tech bolted onto your local fish-killer. which are kind of jaw dropping - tbh.
1656864545216.png
 

Talchotali

Capt. Marvel's Wise Friend
353
156
Vancouverium BC
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What a great chart, thanks for posting

So all those Nuclear, Natural Gas, and Coal powered electric cars, practically free to operate because "anything electric is so much cheaper to run," which are assured to have "cost parity with ICE vehicles by 2027" will save the day !

.
 

Talchotali

Capt. Marvel's Wise Friend
353
156
Vancouverium BC
The root problem is, nobody wants to use the resources we have in an ecological and efficient manner as we transition to better solutions (or destroy the planet making it all moot). Society always expects a silver bullet (radium, filtered cigarettes, anti-gravity shoes, electric cars) will come along and save the day with no penalty to society or an existing life style.

Here is the history of the Victorian street in the UK:

1656873493063.png

The 1980 (Golf) didn't evolve into a 2022 space and energy efficient safe city car, it evolved into a 5000 lb SUV.



I'm not sure why you'd choose a lightweight eighties vehicles weight rather than the modern ICE equivalent?
The Charade example was used to illustrate the fact that the technology has been around for 35+ years if society had a desire to conserve oil resources and maximize efficiency of use in cars. Later the mid-2000's Fox/Lupo example was mentioned to show that this can be done with modern Euro NCAP safety and emissions/particulate constraints. A Turbo Diesel VW UP (Fox follow on) variant was never offered due to consumer indifference.

Weight is a factor in getting up to speed, but its important to remember that once at motorway speeds, most losses come from air resistance, not weight, & that electric cars with regenerative braking are able to reclaim a proportion of the kinetic energy. (which of course doesn't apply to boats at all)

Aero is only meaningful over 40 MPH. Regeneration doesn't put more energy in than was required achieve momentum or you would have a perpetual motion machine. Electric cars still pay a 25% weight penalty over their entire use life (until a 200 mile range battery pack weighs < 100 lbs for the equivilant range amount of a liquid fuel).

Not to say you can't put a lightweight, small displacement turbo-diesel city car in an aerodynamic form:


1656874656761.png


The point is, we can all start to drink bitter tea now, or expect a much more unpleasant bitter tea later when change must come at a much harsher and greater cost.

There will be no silver bullets, just intelligent choices of how we use available resources.
 
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MiddayGun

Super Anarchist
1,180
442
Yorkshire
The root problem is, nobody wants to use the resources we have in an ecological and efficient manner as we transition to better solutions (or destroy the planet making it all moot). Society always expects a silver bullet (radium, filtered cigarettes, anti-gravity shoes, electric cars) will come along and save the day with no penalty to society or an existing life style.

Here is the history of the Victorian street in the UK:

View attachment 526576
The 1980 (Golf) didn't evolve into a 2022 space and energy efficient safe city car, it evolved into a 5000 lb SUV.




The Charade example was used to illustrate the fact that the technology has been around for 35+ years if society had a desire to conserve oil resources and maximize efficiency of use in cars. Later the mid-2000's Fox/Lupo example was mentioned to show that this can be done with modern Euro NCAP safety and emissions/particulate constraints. A Turbo Diesel VW UP (Fox follow on) variant was never offered due to consumer indifference.



Aero is only meaningful over 40 MPH. Regeneration doesn't put more energy in than was required achieve momentum or you would have a perpetual motion machine. Electric cars still pay a 25% weight penalty over their entire use life (until a 200 mile range battery pack weighs < 100 lbs for the equivilant range amount of a liquid fuel).

Not to say you can't put a lightweight, small displacement turbo-diesel city car in an aerodynamic form:


View attachment 526581

The point is, we can all start to drink bitter tea now, or expect a much more unpleasant bitter tea later when change must come at a much harsher and greater cost.

There will be no silver bullets, just intelligent choices of how we use available resources.

What does a Victorian street have to do with anything?
Yes we have some narrow roads over here, most of them are wide enough for parked cars both sides and a lane of traffic each way and a pavement (sidewalk to you guys) either side.

Naturally people get upset when you threaten to demolish their house to build a bigger road, so unless the road is very important like a motorway, most of the time we make do. And most of the time its not an issue, not all cars are range rovers.
How is this related to engines on boats?

Yes air resistance become more important as a car speeds up, we have roads called A roads, B roads and motorways, car use these travelling anywhere from 60 to 80mph. (Sorry officer I mean 70)

And what's all this shit about perpetual motion machines? Cars accelerate, cars brake. Electric cars can recover some of that energy. I literally said in my original comment that it recovered some kinetic energy, I feel like you're willfully misunderstanding me at this point.
Obviously an electric car can't run forever without recharging, if you could make one 100% efficient, run it in a vacuum with no other losses then yes it would technically never need recharging and it wouldn't be a perpetual motion machine as no energy would have been gained or lost.

The reason people don't buy a Lupo or want a Charade anymore is that they want a car bigger than a shoe box, maybe because they have families / need the boot space / tow trailers or any other reason.
It's like asking why put a 50hp diesel in a boat when in a flat calm a 10hp could move it at 3knots and much more economically.

The idea behind tech and progress is to try and make a better and cleaner future without sacrificing all the progress we've made.

We know that we that increasing the amount of greenhouse gasses in our atmosphere is causing the planet to warm.
We know we need to cut emissions to net zero by 2050. To keep within 1.5c of warming.
We know deep down that isn't gong to happen.
So if anything we may need to to net negative in the future.

An electric car can run on renewable energy, a car with a petrol or diesel engine (outside of inefficient biofuels) can't.
Even on the current grid, they produce less emissions over their lifetime. Yes that includes building them.
No there are no silver bullets. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying.

And seriously, can we leave cars alone now, I only mentioned them just as a point about the tightening noose on ICE.
 

kiwin

Member
364
235
Auckland
View attachment 526530

What a great chart, thanks for posting

So all those Nuclear, Natural Gas, and Coal powered electric cars, practically free to operate because "anything electric is so much cheaper to run," which are assured to have "cost parity with ICE vehicles by 2027" will save the day !

.
What that chart doesn't show is the rate of growth of electric vehicles and renewable energy. Also note that just as in many things the US is an outlier, and not in a good way. Renewable generation is doubling every 3-5 years. If that continues - big if - then of course renewables will be a major part of the energy mix in the medium term future. The oil lobby is massively powerful in the US with huge subsidies and tax breaks, bit change is inevitable even there.
The BEV thing is different. They will succeed simply because they are a better tool. Most people who own BEV's do not want to change back to ice. No smell, no noise, instant torque and acceleration, refuelling while you sleep: for most people this is just better. They certainly don't suit all use cases, but are better for most. If you add to that the efficiency and maintenance gain giving the lower running cost then it's a no-brainer. I run two electric vehicles and one ice car. The running cost of the BEV's is 18% of the cost of the ice vehicle which is a relatively fuel efficient small 1.8L turbo station wagon.
The latest evolution of BEV's will feature 800v architecture and cell to pack technology. BEV's will always be heavier than ice cars but CTP will reduce that weight difference somewhat.

I wouldn't be surprised if sailboats all went to linear hybrids. Once the generator part is not driving the prop then there is no reason to have a conventional diesel. We may end up with small gas turbines or linear generators which are much smaller & lighter with fewer moving parts:
 

Monkey

Super Anarchist
10,892
2,513
okay. and the teeny little auxiliaries in a sailboat seem as nothing compared to the shiny and modern big-tech bolted onto your local fish-killer. which are kind of jaw dropping - tbh.
View attachment 526517
Wrong company (that’s our nemesis). Our big tech fish killers are even more absurd. However, we’re using the absurd profits from them to explore friendly alternatives.
Edit: for what it’s worth, my sailboat is getting repowered with one of these guys.

148392A9-A481-4242-B6A0-5A3591FB030D.jpeg
 

bluelaser2

Member
445
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CLE
If your 27 footer needs 500KG of battery, there is exactly one good place to put it.

Keelboat designers are just going to have to design their keels to provide righting moment, lift, and appropriate infrastructure to mount, protect, service and supply an array of standardized cells.
 
On the surface the whole electric motor thing seems like a great idea, then you have reality. There is a pretty well known ex submariner in Key West, he converted a good sized sailboat to electric, maybe a 37, then took a lightning strike, burnt up al the wiring as i suppose it was grounded to the mast? It was a real big deal, lots of money wasted, if I remember right, there were some investors too.

The guy went down in history at Boca Chica Marina as a complete dipshit,,,,,,,,,,,, Later he was involved with the sinking of the tugboat Tilly, but on paper, he looks great, just don't ask any sailors at the bar about him.
 
I understand the original deisel was supposed to be made from hemp oil. The latest numbers i heard was it takes about one dollar per gallon to convert fat into bio fuel, at 5 bucks a gallon, that would be very doable. Seems like a good idea to have a Lister Petter onboard if one did have to rely on electric, but it kind of defeats the purpose.
 

Gissie

Super Anarchist
6,497
1,720
All the rules are made by those that have power and money. They are happy to push the electric car shit because they have no problem buying one. No shitty old clunkers for them.

They can also afford boats, especially powerboats. There is no answer to the big engines. There is no answer in the foreseeable future. There is no way they will ever make a decision that actually impacts on their pleasant, cosseted life. So boats will be quietly ignored.
 

Parma

Super Anarchist
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I think it's going to be a long long while before diesel/petrol is outlawed in leisure craft. The ban on car sales is going to slide back when politicians realise how tight will be the supply of batteries and most customers are unable to afford EVs . Big commerical ships and busses & lorries are going to use fuel oil/diesel for a very long time.
I agree. Politicians love to don the heroic mantle of attacking the rich but when the impracticality of the proposals is pointed out they often quickly lose all interest. Fuel efficiency, probably in several stages, is likely to predate an outright ban .
 

Parma

Super Anarchist
2,992
399
here
okay. and the teeny little auxiliaries in a sailboat seem as nothing compared to the shiny and modern big-tech bolted onto your local fish-killer. which are kind of jaw dropping - tbh.
View attachment 526517
At almost full throttle, those Yamaha XTO 425s guzzle 36.8 gph EACH. That's 73.6 gph or $552 per hour (assuming gas @ $7.5 per gallon) and $1,656 for a 3 hour boat ride.

Gas outboards will likely disappear well before diesel inboards as marine fuel economy regulations appear.
 

Israel Hands

Super Anarchist
2,916
1,664
coastal NC
I understand the original deisel was supposed to be made from hemp oil. The latest numbers i heard was it takes about one dollar per gallon to convert fat into bio fuel, at 5 bucks a gallon, that would be very doable.
But we don't need to use feedstuffs for fuel (corn ethanol for example) nor do we need to use food cropland to grow fuel.
 
But we don't need to use feedstuffs for fuel (corn ethanol for example) nor do we need to use food cropland to grow fuel.
I agree, corn for fuel is a bad idea, proven a waste of resource. Currently one of my butchers composts 200 gallons of raw fat every week, it could easily be be fed to pigs, or converted to bio fuel. There is also the recycle fryer fat, and other sources. Hemp can be grown on ground that corn will not grow well on, converted to feed and fuel, even charcoal.

The key to anything is getting the most bang for the buck. I'm looking at hundreds of windmills where I am today. On the surface it seems like a good idea, in a ten years it will be recognized as an environmental disaster. The thing about steel engines, they are one hundred percent recyclable, fuel is very portable. In Alaska we would drive 130 miles, fill up 50 gallon drums, drive them back to our runway, 130 miles, load a barrel at a time, fly them up to the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, unload and cache them all summer, for the fall hunting season. No way that is happening with any electric engine. Even Musk had a deisel generator to charge his electric car to be tested in Germany. Its common knowledge that carbon fiber and batteries leave a mess after they are used. To date I have not seen a good plan to recycle carbon fiber or lithium batteries.

We cut up about 20 or more 30 to 44 ft boats, I tried to figure out how to recycle the fiberglas. The only thing I ever found was some people crushing it into powder, they were making bird baths and bricks with them in Cuba. Again, the key is to get full and supreme use out of the resource. As a sailor, sailing, capturing the wind, with a recyclable resource, it seems natural, it would be great to keep it that way.
 




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