The future of diesel inboards in an all electric future

LionessRacing

Super Anarchist
4,351
592
Myrtle Beach,
However, roughly 80% of global electricity is sourced from fossil fuels at the present time.

So while a shift to EVs will clean up the air in cities, from a global perspective will it have any net impact on climate change?

Which leads to a follow up question: are more fossil fuels consumed in electricity production to drive an EV one mile than fuel consumed to drive an ICE vehicle one mile (various conversion and transmission losses and all)?

The only sensible solution I see is to vastly increase the amount of electricity generated by renewables - but is this feasible in the next few decades? IDK.
Well there's the obvious answer that is generate electricity by Nuclear power, No carbon and very reliable power vs weather.
 

ryley

Super Anarchist
5,516
666
Boston, MA
Wait for it, you have to be able to motor towards safety for about 4 hours.
Presumably the helicopter arrives by then!
and I know this is your point, but is the helicopter electric too? if you were to compare motoring to safety vs motoring for 4 hours + Helicopter/Cutter, the net is obviously going to motoring to safety.
Believe figures don't lie but liars figure--and there are plenty of liars out there in regulatory land
Plenty of liars in regulatory land but at least in the US there is no longer an incentive to move to cleaner energy, since the EPA (and a host of other agencies) have been stripped of their ability to make and enforce rules that would lead us toward non-petroleum solutions. USA! USA!
Keelboat designers are just going to have to design their keels to provide righting moment, lift, and appropriate infrastructure to mount, protect, service and supply an array of standardized cells.
Geeze, we can't even get them to design keels that stay attached and now you want them to provide energy too??
 

Foredeck Shuffle

More of a Stoic Cynic, Anarchy Sounds Exhausting
Chart seems odd.
Grouping wind and solar in with nuclears heat rejection seems misleading.

With this much rejected heat, does it seem odd we have to pay to heat homes?

On topic.
At least in the US, all systems will be grandfathered. Ex post facto.
With regards to solar, nuclear, etc, did you notice in comparison that natural gas loses almost 50% of its value to waste as well?

I briefly went to look at the information from LLNL data that produced the graph and waste heat energy is shockingly high for many reasons. The study measures energy lost during production from furnaces, radiation from steam pipes, heat on gearing, from transferring from DC to AC before transmission, etc. Vehicles lose a lot of energy from heat from an internal combustion engine and even the energy successfully produced is partially lost in friction and braking which is significant everywhere except highways. Many home and business appliances and machinery again convert electricity from AC to DC with the resultant heat loss. All those electic cars are converting AC to DC and the batteries have radiator cooling to keep them stable and more energy is lost as waste heat If you pick apart the details of everything that is powered in some manner you find waste energy, usually as waste heat, everywhere.
 

Israel Hands

Super Anarchist
2,908
1,662
coastal NC
Just started reading this book, which fits right in with the theme of this thread. We are far more anchored to a fossil fuel world than most of us want to believe.
1657197168781.png

 

a8b

Member
87
28
With regards to solar, nuclear, etc, did you notice in comparison that natural gas loses almost 50% of its value to waste as well?

I briefly went to look at the information from LLNL data that produced the graph and waste heat energy is shockingly high for many reasons. The study measures energy lost during production from furnaces, radiation from steam pipes, heat on gearing, from transferring from DC to AC before transmission, etc. Vehicles lose a lot of energy from heat from an internal combustion engine and even the energy successfully produced is partially lost in friction and braking which is significant everywhere except highways. Many home and business appliances and machinery again convert electricity from AC to DC with the resultant heat loss. All those electic cars are converting AC to DC and the batteries have radiator cooling to keep them stable and more energy is lost as waste heat If you pick apart the details of everything that is powered in some manner you find waste energy, usually as waste heat, everywhere.
You are not even wrong.

But wind does not have huge heat loss.

The chart is wrong.

You could maybe make the case for solar, because it is 'only' twenty something percent efficient compared to the solar energy potential, but that is not waste heat. It is sunlight falling to earth.
 

Foredeck Shuffle

More of a Stoic Cynic, Anarchy Sounds Exhausting
You are not even wrong.

But wind does not have huge heat loss.

The chart is wrong.

You could maybe make the case for solar, because it is 'only' twenty something percent efficient compared to the solar energy potential, but that is not waste heat. It is sunlight falling to earth.
Generation is in DC and must be converted to AC for transmission, depending upon the method of conversion the efficiency can be as high as 90% which would be expected at a power plant.

In general if the load for the conversion is imbalanced where the converter technology is rated at a much higher capacity than the actual load to be converted, the efficiency can drop below 50%.

For appliances, both consumer and low to mid-grade commercial when the current must be converted from AC to DC it is often around 75% where the conversion is just a bridge rectifier and a capacitor.

In general the conversion of AC to DC is more efficient and can be completed in a single stage where DC to AC is usually broken up into two stages and is less efficient.

With regards to the chart, you are seeing wind go into a box labeled Electricity Generation where it is combined with other forms of electricity generation, then splits into its functional uses and energy that has been rejected. And remember, dumb grids which are nearly all grids in the US are always running higher than needed with significant losses to heat. How you decided that an incorrect amount of Wind generated electricity is being rejected is more insightful than I can find even when expanding the chart to 1000% resolution. The chart has combined the numbers because the details of each is unimportant to get the nature of the overall problem across.

But if you feel that LLNL is wrong, perhaps you should write them.
 

a8b

Member
87
28
The fuck you talking about?

The nuclear powered steam that spins a very expensive turbine with a several hundered degree steam stream also has to do all those same electrical conversions. And still manages to get to 20 something percent efficent bleeding energy to ambient at the cube of the tempature delta every step of the way.

The difference with wind power is it STARTS at the turbine in a stream of ambiant air.

To suggest there is a comparison in efficency is insane or ignorant.

You may know more than I about how wind turbines generate electricity. I was told they generate AC, as AC to AC converstion for the grid use/sync is more efficient.

Or maybe you don't.

But I am searching around for my quill and a scrap of parchment that I may dispatch a missive to the fucking LLNL graphics department, to correct a mistake that may confuse people who have no basic grasp of physics.

Have a great day.
 

Foredeck Shuffle

More of a Stoic Cynic, Anarchy Sounds Exhausting
The study is looking at all the points from generation, transmission, conversion, and use, and where efficiencies are lost in each point. It's definitely not new information but it is in a format that persons without electrical and electronics experience can understand.

A vehicle alone is a mess and depending upon its use case, can see below a 20% fuel conversion to useful energy, due to the inefficiency of the engine itself, the inefficiencies of the vehicle, and braking. Braking is where EV vehicles stand out against ICE vehicles as most use regenerative braking to recover energy that was converted to inertial energy. Still not great in the city but very effective on highways where stopping is less sudden.

Everything that makes energy, no matter how technologically advanced, is still hooked up to a dumb grid so losses abound.

The specifics are what you seem to be delving into and why I went down that rabbit hole. Rejected energy, per the charts chosen descriptor, is significant when the details are investigated. But the chart does not attempt to convey anything so detailed.

I doubt LLNL has a graphics department. Usually grad students on internships and post-doc's hoping for real work, get stuck doing those. I think you'll find that you can locate the source for that chart on Twitter as many organizations use it to communicate information like this. If you are nice you will often find that the principals will answer you directly and if you ask for associated studies they used or produce themselves, they are only too happy to send the papers to you direclty so you do not have to use a paywalled research paper site. No one likes having their information buried behind those services.
 

shubrook

Anarchist
950
114
CT, USA
It's already hard to get parts for inboard diesels. As the market shrinks further, it's just going to get more difficult. Someone recently stole the parts off my buddy's engine block and it basically totalled his boat (he did eventually fix it).

I was looking into gasoline vs. electric for my 2000 lb sport boat, and electric would have been just fine for getting on and off the mooring. I went with an oversized gasoline outobard so that I could motor towards safety. I'll buy something tiny for beercans and things in the future.

There's no reason sailboat couldn't have inboard electric engines, but aren't they pretty heavy? I can sail with a half-empty fuel tank, but a built-in 200-mile battery would be a doozy. I think there'd be a lot of pressure to go with undersized batteries.

the R2AK people seem to be doing just fine with oars. Maybe cruisers will get an electric and racers will row.
 

a8b

Member
87
28
It's already hard to get parts for inboard diesels. As the market shrinks further, it's just going to get more difficult. Someone recently stole the parts off my buddy's engine block and it basically totalled his boat (he did eventually fix it).

I was looking into gasoline vs. electric for my 2000 lb sport boat, and electric would have been just fine for getting on and off the mooring. I went with an oversized gasoline outobard so that I could motor towards safety. I'll buy something tiny for beercans and things in the future.

There's no reason sailboat couldn't have inboard electric engines, but aren't they pretty heavy? I can sail with a half-empty fuel tank, but a built-in 200-mile battery would be a doozy. I think there'd be a lot of pressure to go with undersized batteries.

the R2AK people seem to be doing just fine with oars. Maybe cruisers will get an electric and racers will row.
There is a guy in B.C., i think his buisness is grin.ca, who put a 8kw motor on sail boats. Vid on youtube.
Crazy small motors.
Found one.
 

MiddayGun

Super Anarchist
1,179
442
Yorkshire
You may know more than I about how wind turbines generate electricity. I was told they generate AC, as AC to AC converstion for the grid use/sync is more efficient.

The German guys I'm working with tell me that the wind turbines offshore produce AC. This is then rectified to DC at the substation platform to be sent ashore. And then obviously ashore, back to AC.

They said the losses to get to shore are actually very low 5% or something as there is some clever cabling that recovers the energy lost from the magnetic field generated by the current, or something along those lines.
I'm sure lots was lost in translation.
 

a8b

Member
87
28
The German guys I'm working with tell me that the wind turbines offshore produce AC. This is then rectified to DC at the substation platform to be sent ashore. And then obviously ashore, back to AC.

They said the losses to get to shore are actually very low 5% or something as there is some clever cabling that recovers the energy lost from the magnetic field generated by the current, or something along those lines.
I'm sure lots was lost in translation.
May be. I have only talked to a few techs working on these michigan windmills.
And to be honest, I cannot say they actually know what they are talking about.
But an ee friend said Ac to ac makes sense.

I have read about high voltage dc transmission lines that are more efficient than ac.
 
So I was reading an article today about the upcoming bans on combustion engines in new cars and it got me thinking about inboards.
The EU are saying all new sales must be electric from 2035, the UK before that at 2030.

Now this doesn't apply to boats yet (as far as I'm aware), but it can't be too long before legislators turn their eyes towards leisure boating and the emissions we produce, naturally we're in a better position than power boaters, but I'm sure all of us have plugged away for hours under engine to make a tidal gate / make progress when there's no wind, or just to get back in time for work.

The 45 litre tank on my small 27'er will keep me going for at least 40 hours steaming, at a weight of just 45kg.
As far as I'm aware, even the best battery techs aren't close to that yet, and they come with some pretty big safety concerns. LifeP04 I'd probably need close to 500kg of batteries to get the same performance.
For lake sailors and day sailors it's probably an easy switch, for coastal sailors less so.

I'm wondering what people think is going to be the future of the inboard? Better as yet not released battery tech? Hydrogen? Biofuels?
The 2nd best thing I did on my Olson 40 was replacing the Yanmar diesel with an electric motor. Absolutely no regrets.

The best was adding the big sugar scoop. Not noticeably faster (probably slower as more weight), but far more fun, and fundamentally safer.
 
Meanwhile, my startup (Terraform Industries) is making machines to extract excess CO2 from the atmosphere and creating fossil-free natural gas. When we are successful (!) we will replace the feedstock of the petrochemical industry with non-fossil gas, making the entire petrochemical industry planet savers, rather than planet killers.

Hence, I expect we will be able to continue to use gas and diesel and jet fuel forever, if we want.

But again, replacing the diesel with electric was an enormous improvement in every way that matters on my boat that sails well.

Certainly no range anxiety whatsoever: It's a sailboat, so it still has infinite range! Powering 12 miles to the shipyard consumed about 10% of the 4KWh battery bank because with electric, we motor sail, we don't just motor around like a powerboat. Even in the nearly flat calm of a 6am departure, there is still some wind, and apparent wind generated with even very small amounts of power get the boat moving along nicely at several knots (not 8 knots, but 5+).

When cruising, we easily get 4 days, and with care 6 days, of cruising without charging. This is an entirely electric boat without any way of charging besides shore power. We use a refrigerator, electric induction stove, electric tea kettle, electric head, etc. We are (accidentally) almost perfectly balanced among consumables: we run out of holding tank, water, and electricity at about the same time. Like nearly any boat, refrigeration is the biggest load.

Solar would be needed for long range cruising. Along with a water maker. Water makers consume about the same power as our induction stove, so with a few panels, should be possible to live indefinitely on the hook.

If your boat is a pig, or a powerboat, or needs to use air conditioning or heating, then you will need to stick with diesel.

Otherwise, you will be fundamentally happier with electric. No fuel, no stalling, no 800 RPM minimum while maneuvering, no fumes, no repairs, no vibration, no noise, no spare parts, no spare coolant, filters, belts, etc., and substantially less weight and volume: the motor plus LiFePO4 battery bank weighs about the same as 25 gallons of fuel.

Getting out and into the slip is really the huge win: No yelling or raising voices at all ever at the beginning and end of a day sailing might make your wife like to go sailing again. The ability to instantly and reliably get any little or large amount of thrust, instead of just big dollops of thrust, dramatically reduces the stress on the skipper.
 

tigger.mike

New member
20
12
UK
I'm of the opinion that the fact that light aircraft are still using leaded fuel is a good indicator of how it will go for boats. Too small an issue to focus on and will be dealt with by supply and demand, with niche suppliers providing fuels for marinas and such like.

Personally, as an owner of 28 trimaran, I would love to kick the annoying petrol outboard that is forever causing issues and have an electric outboard that can regen the batteries for when I can give up speed for power (which is quite often). We call our outboard the handbrake as we often drop it in to slow us down when it gets fiesty.
 

a8b

Member
87
28
I'm of the opinion that the fact that light aircraft are still using leaded fuel is a good indicator of how it will go for boats. Too small an issue to focus on and will be dealt with by supply and demand, with niche suppliers providing fuels for marinas and such like.

Personally, as an owner of 28 trimaran, I would love to kick the annoying petrol outboard that is forever causing issues and have an electric outboard that can regen the batteries for when I can give up speed for power (which is quite often). We call our outboard the handbrake as we often drop it in to slow us down when it gets fiesty.
Some light aircraft are now using batteries.

But ya. No ones cares/too small to matter/in the us, grandfathered.

But electrical conversion may become so attractive few boats may remain origional.

I can see a day where the inboard or outboard becomes a genset, running at a specific point just to dump power into the batteries for the 'need to run electric engines for 3 days' cases.
 

robalex117

Super Anarchist
I can see a day where the inboard or outboard becomes a genset, running at a specific point just to dump power into the batteries for the 'need to run electric engines for 3 days' cases.
That day is here. Called diesel electric and I had it on my last 60' catamaran. Worked well after the kinks were worked out. System was installed in 2012 and used components that were designed earlier. Installing now I think would be even better. My first electric motor was induction and weighed 300lbs, latter replaced with a permanent magnet motor that was 100lbs. We actually had a fairly small battery back, 20kwh. Basically if we were motoring for more than 5 minutes we turned on a genset. We had two generator but only used one at a time.
 

Israel Hands

Super Anarchist
2,908
1,662
coastal NC
If your boat is a pig...then you will need to stick with diesel.
Certainly no range anxiety whatsoever....

Getting out and into the slip is really the huge win: No yelling or raising voices at all ever at the beginning and end of a day sailing might make your wife like to go sailing again. The ability to instantly and reliably get any little or large amount of thrust, instead of just big dollops of thrust, dramatically reduces the stress on the skipper.
Ain't it good we're all different. My Nordic 44 sails like a dream. She's no pig, but maybe she's Marilyn Monroe to your Twiggy - her displacement is twice that of your boat. And your perception of the importance of range is clearly different from mine. Love my boat and unlikely to ever remove the diesel that quietly purrs as we back out of the slip.
 

ateam

Member
94
0
So I was reading an article today about the upcoming bans on combustion engines in new cars and it got me thinking about inboards.
The EU are saying all new sales must be electric from 2035, the UK before that at 2030.

Now this doesn't apply to boats yet (as far as I'm aware), but it can't be too long before legislators turn their eyes towards leisure boating and the emissions we produce, naturally we're in a better position than power boaters, but I'm sure all of us have plugged away for hours under engine to make a tidal gate / make progress when there's no wind, or just to get back in time for work.

The 45 litre tank on my small 27'er will keep me going for at least 40 hours steaming, at a weight of just 45kg.
As far as I'm aware, even the best battery techs aren't close to that yet, and they come with some pretty big safety concerns. LifeP04 I'd probably need close to 500kg of batteries to get the same performance.
For lake sailors and day sailors it's probably an easy switch, for coastal sailors less so.

I'm wondering what people think is going to be the future of the inboard? Better as yet not released battery tech? Hydrogen? Biofuels?
its correct what u say...development is not there yet..for many boaters...my guess is hydrogen engines..with hydrogen produced from renewalde energy....
 

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