I didn’t want to seem aggressive. And you are right, i called you self assured, but I was acting more self assured. Fly the crew to Cagliari would be possible, a lot of football players are going home in private jets. I still think they could have a base for the shore-team in Cagliari, since they were planning to stay there some time. But, who knows. I’m not playing “Italy hope” as you called it. I hope ETNZ or LR to win, they are my favourite teams. Not a fan of Sir B or Dean actually. And I respect your opinion, but I still think that the simulator is good for designing your boat, because you have reliable inputs, but not so good in comparing performances. Also, I think AM and Ineos have a lot more work to do, since they have to change not only boat design but sailing philosophy too. And I’m worried for ETNZ. Bacause I see a lot of enthusiasm for Te Kahu, but that was a boat that had to cover a small time frame while B1 was in Europe, and now it’s the only thing they can work on and it’s not enough. Maybe it was also meant to be sailed against B1. I don’t know. What I think is that a scaled down model is not half as good as they real thing. I’d like to hear from others too about this.
The kiwis are coming home to roost
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Terry Hollis
Super Anarchist
The simulator can also compare the performance of the challengers as well, there are enough photos/videos and performance data from their spys to give a good feel for the relative performance of everyone.
Tornado-Cat
Super Anarchist
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rh3000
Super Anarchist
Wasn't aware ETNZ comprised of Italian citizens able to return home whilst borders are closed to foreigners - things you learn eh.
Skipstone
Member
Just get those containers of equipment in those private jets too... Wonder how many private jets you'd need to get a team somewhere... even assuming one wanted to.
Woolfy
Anarchist
Skipstone
Member
I was talking about June. Right now commercial flights are allowed, I hope by June the situation will be better and people will be allowed to fly for business purpose. ETNZ is a sailing team, they know how to move around the world, and they were planning to spend some time in Europe. I don't know about budget, I'm not in the executive board of ETNZ, I'm here because I love this competition, I love to talk about it, and I always learn something from this forum. Maybe what I propose is impossible, I don't know. I don't know the budget, the logistic problems, how many people should go. And I don't know how many here can have this kind of notions. I'm only saying that staying some time with other teams in Cagliari till September could be useful since Te Aihe is blocked and it's unknown when she will be back. It's clear ETNZ decided to stay in Auckland where things are under control instead of running to rescue a boat that maybe will be back home next month. We can only wait and see what happens.
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Priscilla
Super Anarchist
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Today’s lesson.
A paragraph is a series of related sentences developing a central idea, called the topic. Try to think about paragraphs in terms of thematic unity: a paragraph is a sentence or a group of sentences that supports one central, unified idea. Paragraphs add one idea at a time to your broader argument.
You now owe me one apple.
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Rennmaus
Super Anarchist
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One one hand I am super disappointed that the ACWS in Cag. was canceled; the hotel room was already booked, vacation days allocated etc.
On the other hand I'm super happy that there is no ACWS anymore, because that's how the AC should be played anyway: Challenger and Defender meeting for the first time for the AC proper.
(Now we only need to get rid of the Christmas race too...)
On the other hand I'm super happy that there is no ACWS anymore, because that's how the AC should be played anyway: Challenger and Defender meeting for the first time for the AC proper.
(Now we only need to get rid of the Christmas race too...)
SCARECROW
Super Anarchist
I agree sitting down to watch race one and having no real idea who is going to win makes the bullshit worthwhile
Skipstone
Member
Perhaps the event should look at going back to 1-on-1 Deed of Gift challenges to be held on perhaps an annual basis... ?
This obviously lowers the field but increases the frequency. And at that pace it would keep the stakes high and the target moving.
Perhaps a boat might even survive multiple challenges as was once routinely the case... although granted updates would definitely be required in this case to maintain the development curve and remain at least competitive.
And perhaps any defender that loses the trophy has to wait at least x challenges to be able to challenge again. Unless there are no challengers by a certain cut-off date.
This event has never been held on a yearly basis. Three years has pretty much been the minimum interval, with a few exceptions in modern times, such as the 1988 DoG match after the 1987 Perth event, and the 1962 and 1964 events in the 12mR class. This includes events run in long-lived classes such as the 12mR and the ACC, even though both of those classes evolved--albeit in relatively small ways--while they were used in the AC.
The closest thing to the model you are talking about is the much-maligned agreement made by the majority of competitors during AC35.
It has rarely been the case that a boat "survived" multiple challenges, if you mean the same boat competing in the Match in one or more AC events. Defender (1899,1901) Intrepid (1967,1970), and Courageous (1974,1977) come to mind. Certainly, older boats have served as trial horses, and a few (Courageous, Intrepid) have competed in additional trials without making it to the Match. Intrepid, in many minds the greatest 12 ever, came within a broken running backstay block in the last upwind leg of the final race of the 1974 defender trials of being the only three-time defender.
I remember that one well, as one of my friends was Intrepid's shore boss that year. It just about broke my heart. "Knock on wood" is still a slogan that resonates with a lot of older AC fans like me. I still have that bumper sticker, somewhere. My dog even had her own Intrepid dock pass that year.
Remember that unless it is a "friendly" DoG challenge with some form of mutual consent, it all devolves back to the words of the DoG when it comes to the terms of the match.
pusslicker
Super Anarchist
Fair enough, but you still have to have mutual consent even to do that. This has been the basis of traditional "friendly" challenges, where the defender essentially pre-selects a potential challenger who has agreed to terms, which might include a CSS and a designated class of boats. If it looks to be a successful defense, the pre-selected challenging club's representative is on whatever boat the defending club's commodore is on for the potentially-final race, and the challenge is presented just after the defender crosses the line for the final time.
Effectively, ETNZ and LR did this at the end of AC35, but there is nothing new about it.
Skipstone
Member
All the points made above by other, perfectly valid.
No, the cup hasn't been run remotely so quickly as I postulated - and maybe it couldn't be run quite so quickly but every 18 months to 2 years would be eminently do-able. Ultimately the longer the gap the more likely numbers of new boats are required whereas if the event could loosely settle on a class you might only need to produce one boat as you could use your previous vessel for development - and racing too if you wished.
I suspect a faster cycle time to the next event might encourage some re-use of boats, help lower costs and reduce the wasted spend when multiple challengers line up only for one to eventually be successful to challenge.
And if one vs one doesn't work... there's always the option of a series of fleet races under DoG provisions - perhaps still the first to 7 wins... might represent a viable winning position. Or fleet races first to 7 for challengers to be followed by a best of 9 match between two boats.
Rennmaus
Super Anarchist
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Reusing boats in an annual AC race?
This is what the DoG has to say:
"No vessel which has been defeated in a match for this Cup can be again selected by any Club as its representative until after a contest for it by some other vessel has intervened, or until after the expiration of two years from the time of such defeat."
This is what the DoG has to say:
"No vessel which has been defeated in a match for this Cup can be again selected by any Club as its representative until after a contest for it by some other vessel has intervened, or until after the expiration of two years from the time of such defeat."
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The good thing is that this only applies to boats defeated in the Match. Of course, why would you want to sail again in a boat that had already lost?
A number of 12s were heavily modified between events. It was a bit easier with aluminum hulls, and with wooden ones to some extent. Intrepid (US 22) had an aft bustle added that was built entirely of white pine strips covered in epoxy and microballoons. Waterline wedges were cut into Defender (US 33). The list goes on and on.
One aluminum 12 was cut down to the ballast keel, part of the alloy centerline keel, and the bilge frame ends in that area. Independence ( US 28, Ted Hood design) then became Clipper (US 32, David Pedrick design).
The 12mR class was used for 10 Cup iterations over almost 30 years, by far the longest-lived class. The IACC/ACC class lasted for five iterations, albeit with a class rule that changed a lot in that period. All you have to do is look at version 5 boats compared to version 1 boats, although by late in the version 1 cycle the Rule corner into which most boats would fit was pretty well decided. The Little Red Boat was an outlier, even for v.1.
Just over 100 sail numbers were issued for the IACC/ACC class during that period. (A couple may have been skipped that were deemed to be "culturally inappropriate" in the view of the team to which they would normally have been issued). It's a little time-consuming to add up the number of 12s build specifically for the Cup, since sail numbers were allocated by nationality, rather than just total construction sequence.
AC 32 was going to be the end of the IACC/ACC class even if the ensuing DoG challenge had not shifted the historical course.white
