The Melges 15 / Future of American Double Handed Classes

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So as far as the future of American double handed sailing, where will be in 5 years? 10 years?

If all forms of FJ / 420 / misc one-off double handed fleets coalesced behind the Melges 15 (or some other class?) over the next 3-7 years, I think that would be a very positive development for the sport in the states. How likely is that to happen? hopefully it is realistic, but this is sailing, we're still in the Opti, Laser, etc.

More generally, its amazing how stratified this tier of the sport is in this class. We've got lots of different 2-3 man boats all over the country, can you imagine how fun racing in this country would be if we shortened this list to 5 boats?


4.45


360


14 (Int.)


29er

405 (Int.)

420 Club

420 Collegiate

420 Zim

420 Int


470 (Int.)


49er (Int.)


505 (Int.)


747 Cat Rig (SA=75)


747 Sloop (SA=116)


A Scow


Akroyd


Albacore (15')


Alpha


Alpha One


Alpha Pro


American 14.6


American 16


American 17


American 18


Apache


Apollo C/B (15'9")


Aqua Finn


Arrow 15


B14


Balboa 13


Bandit (Canadian)


Bandit 15


Bandit 17


Banshee


Barnegat 17


Barnegat Bay Sneakbox


Barracuda


Bat Mk 2


Bay Hustler


BBC Scow (12' Custom)


BBC Sloop


Beetle Cat (12'4", Cat Rig)


Blivit 13


Blue Bird


Blue Buoy (14')


Blue Crab


Blue Jay


Bombardier 3.8


Bombardier 4.8


Bonito


Boss w/spi


Buccaneer 18' spi (SWN18)


Butterfly


Buzz


Byte


Byte CII


C Scow


C-Lark


Cadet (Int.)



Cape Dory 14


Caprice


Catalina 13 (Capri)


Catalina 14.2 (Capri)


Catalina 14.2 Keel (Capri


Catalina 16.5 (Capri) no spi


Catalina 8


Catalina Expo 12.5


Celebrity w/Genoa


Challenger 15


Channel Sloop


Chatauqua 12


Checkmate


Chesapeake


Cheyenne


CL 14


CL 16


Club Junior


Code 40


Comet


Contender (Int.)


Copperhead


Coronado 15


Corsair Ten


Cortez 14


Cottontail


Cyclone 13


Cyclone 13 (SA=74)


D Scow


Dabchick


Dagger


Day Sailer (O'Day 17)


Defender (O'Day)


Demon


Designers Choice w/spi


Dingue (Brazil)


Discoverer 18


Dolphin 17


Dolphin Jr


Dolphin Sr


Doodle


Dovekie


Dover Dory 16


Dragoner (Chrysler)


DS-16


Duster


Dutchcraft


Dyer Delta



E Scow


Eighteen Skiff



Enterprise (Int.)



Evans 16


Exocet II (Aus.)


Explorer 15


Expresswind


Falcon 14


Feather


Finn (Int.)


Fireball (Int.)


Firefly


FJ


FJ (Intl)


Flipper


Flipper (Canadian)


Flying Cloud


Flying Dutchman (Int.)


Flying Fish


Flying Scot (19')


Flying Tern


Force 5


Ford 20 (Day Sailer)


Formula S


Frontrunner


Fusion 15


Galilee 15


Gannet


Geary 18


Gemini 16'


Genesis 4.4


Ghost 13 (SA=105)


Glen-L 13'


Glen-L 15'


Glorius


Gloucester Dory 26'9"


Goldfish


GP14


Grampian 17


Gryphon


Gulf Coast 15


Gull


Hampton One Design


Harpoon 4.6


Harpoon 5.2


Hartley 14


Hawk 17


Herman 15


Heron


Highlander


Hobie 10


Hobie One-12 See: Holder 12 (H1-12)


Hobie One-14 See: Holder 14 (H1-14)


Hobie One-9 See: Holder Hawk (H1-9)


Holder 12 (H1-12)


Holder 14 (H1-14)


Holder 17 DS


Holder 17 See: Vagabond 17 (and HLR17)


Holder Hawk (H1-9)


Holiday 19


Holiday Jr


Hunter 140 (JY14)


Hunter 170 no spi


Hurricane C/B


Illusion 12 (12')


Inland 20 Scow


Inland Cat


Inland Sloop


Interdane 404


Interlake


Invitation


Islands 15


Islands 17


J Sailer (Johnson, 16')


Javelin






Boat


Jester 12


Jester 16


Jester 8


Jet 14


Jetwind


Johnson 18 spi


Jollyboat


JY 15


JY Xcite Trainer 9'11"


Kelpie 15


Kenn 11


Kestrel


Kite


Knockabout 18 (Cape Cod)


Kolibri


Koralle 15


Koralle Jr


Korsar


La Cometa


Lark (13'4")


Larson Regatta (16')




Laser 2000


Laser 3000



Laser 4000


Laser 5000


Laser II (Int., w/Trap & Spi)


Laser Pico Uno



Laser Stratos no trap


Laser Vortex


Lazy E


Lido 14


Lightning (Int.)


Lone Star 13


Lone Star 16 (SA=145)


Lone Star 16 (SA=165)


Luger 16 Leeward


M Scow (M-16 Scow)


M-20 Scow


Mac Dinghy


Mach II


Malard


Man O'War


Manta


Marauder


Mariner 17


Marlin 14


Marshall Cat 15 See: Sandpiper 15 (Marshall)


Martin 14


Martin 16


Max


Mayflower


MC Scow


Megabyte


Melges 17 Scow spi


Melges 15


Melonseed Skiff


Merlin Rocket


Merrimac


Meteor



Microtoner (Brazil)


Millimeter (12'6)


Mini-Scow (Johnson)


Minifish (Alcort)


Minifish Mk II


Mirror 16


Mirror Dinghy (10'10")


Missile


Mistral 14


Mistral 16 (Sloop)


Mistral 16 Slp w/Trap


Mistral 4.04


Mobjack


Monk


Montgomery 10


Montgomery 12


Montgomery 15


Montgomery 7-11


Mustang 17


Mutineer 15' (SWN15)


MX Ray


Narrasketuck


National 10


National 12


National One Design


Neptune 14


Neptune 16


Newport 16


Nipper


Nomad spi (Vanguard)


Nutshell 7'7"


Nutshell 9'6"


O'Day 12


O'Day 15


OK Dinghy (Int.)


Olympic Monotype(O-Jolle


Omega (14')


Open Bic


One-Design 14 (Gr.Prix)


One-Design 14 (Std.Rig)


Optimist Pram (Int.)


Ospray (O'Day)


Osprey Mk 1&2


Osprey Mk 2&3


Overnighter (Tanzer)


Paceship 17


Pelican (San Fran.)


Penguin


Petrel


Phantom (Lateen Rig)


Pintail


Pirateer


PiXel 13'9"


Point Jude


Porpoise 12


Precision 14


Precision 15


Precision 16


Precision 18.5 no spi


Puffer


R18 (Erre 18) (Italy)


Raider 16


Ranger 11


Ranger 12


Ranger 16


Ranger 9


Rascal


Raven


Rebel


Redhead


Renegade


Rhodes Bantam


Rinky Dink


Roadrunner


Robin


Ross 13


RS 200 Slp spi


RS 400 Slp spi


RS 600


RS 700 spi


RS 800 Slp spi


RS Feva


RS Vareo spi


S-12



Sailbird


Sailstar


San Clemente 16


Sandpiper 100 (Sloop)


Sandpiper 15 (Marshall)


Satellite


Schwill 16


Scorpion


Sea Pearl 21 (Cat Ketch)


Sea Snark (Snark)


Sea Witch (Sunchaser II)


Seabird


Sesame


Shellback


Sidewinder (Sloop)


Siren (17'2")


Sirocco 15


Skate 7.5' Beam (Can.)


Skidley


Skipjack


Skylark


Snipe (Int.)


Solar Sailer 13' Expo


Solo


Spanker (Brazil)


Sparkler


Speedball


Spindrift 15


Spindrift 16


Spree


Sprite


SR 17


Starcraft


Stardancer 14


Starfire


Starfish


Starwind 13.5


Starwind 15 See:


Starwind 18 See: Buccaneer 18' spi (SWN18)


Stealth cat rig, A.spi


Streaker


Suicide (Develop.Class)


Sun Cat (Cat Rig)


Sunbird


Sunflower


Sunspot


Super Porpoise 14


Super Satellite


Super Snark 2 (SSII)


Supernova


Surfglas


Surfwind


Surprise


Sweet 16


Tanzer 14


Tanzer 16 w/Gen


Tasar


Tasar M


Teal


Tech Dinghy


Tern


The Ten


The Twelve


Thistle


Thunderbird C/B


Topper


Tornado C/B


Town Class


Transfusion 547


Trapeze


Tridente (Italy)


UFO


United States Monotype


Upstart


US-1


Vagabond 17 (and HLR17)


Vanguard 15


Vector


Viper


Volant


Voyager 15



Wanderer Sloop 14' spi


Wayfarer


Wee Punkin


Weesort


Whip


Whirlwind


Whitecap 18' (L-N)


Widgeon


Wildflower


Windflight


Windjammer


Windmill


Wineglass


Wing Dinghy


Wizz 14


Woodpussy


X-14 (Italy)


X-Boat


Y-Boat


Y-Flyer


Zef 12


Zenith


Zuma

 

[[email protected]]

Obviously over the last couple years a huge % of double handed racing in USA is in 420 / FJ / Snipe / Vanguard 15 / Melges 15 / 505 / Tasar / Blue Jay / Flying Scot... what are other legitimately active fleets / classes?

 

[spankoka]

505 sailors are not going to want a boat they cannot rig to suit themselves.

 

[VWAP]

Obviously over the last couple years a huge % of double handed racing in USA

Starboat

 

[sunseeker]

Obviously over the last couple years a huge % of double handed racing in USA is in 420 / FJ / Snipe / Vanguard 15 / Melges 15 / 505 / Tasar / Blue Jay / Flying Scot... what are other legitimately active fleets / classes?

Why is it a positive development for the sport if all the doublehanders you cite are shitcanned for the Melges 15?

 

[CaptainAhab]

Obviously over the last couple years a huge % of double handed racing in USA is in 420 / FJ / Snipe / Vanguard 15 / Melges 15 / 505 / Tasar / Blue Jay / Flying Scot... what are other legitimately active fleets / classes?

JY15, 29er

 

[FlyingCircus2]

That's cool, now do the list with the prices.

Then pick your favorite 5 and double the price, and half the price of the others.

 

[Will1073]

Was this thread necessary?

 

[Alaris]

This is why it will never happen. How many clubs or schools do you know that have a few hundred grand lying around to replace their existing fleets? And what happens to the boats they replace? Cut them up so people are forced to sail M15s?

Also, take it to dinghy anarchy

 

[WorstPitManEver]

Buy an ad.

 

[cbulger]

.... and that's why there are so few of us Americans at the top of the sport..... because we argue that slow boats are "The Future" - dont get me wrong, the sport needs slow boats as a gateway and to serve as a less demanding platform for recreation - but we need to stop pretending that skiffs and multihulls don't exist just cause Americans prefer slower rides. Top sailing nations love boats like the Melges 15 - but they also love fast boats and the fast fleets produce their top talent. Best double-handed fleet on Narragansett Bay - without lead - is the NAASA F18 Fleet.

 

[jimmydyurko]

Ditching old fleets just because a new fleet is popping up is absurd on its face.

It's also a false assumption that the new boats are inherently better than the old boats.

I train kids on club 420s and have never had a single new sailor complain to me that our boats are somehow antiquated and in need of replacement with some new shiny plastic.

They may or may not enjoy sailing with us for a million other reasons but the "newness" of the boats has never been one.

As to those of us in the "other" double-handed classes, could you possibly consider that we enjoy our boats and don't care that something shinier is now on the market?

Or perhaps consider that some of the other owners are not interested in the new shiny objects?

It blows my mind just how every time a new boat pops up promoters come and try to convince existing owners to buy the new gadgets rather than actually go sell to new sailors.

There are 330 million people in the US and sailboat salesmen only seem to want to sell to the few thousand aging owners already out there.

Perhaps instead of cannibalism we could work with our local groups to pump up existing infrastructure and expand the market rather than sit back and watch all the old marinas and clubs get razed and built into condos.

 

[TJSoCal]

If we're going to consolidate at all (and not granting that premise) wouldn't it make more sense to focus on Olympic classes?

 

[Gigantasy]

Please find a Zoomer to help you format your posts next time.

 

[ILYAScow]

This is the direction you want to take sailing in the US? Destroy what little sailing that is actual happening so that you can have a more dedicated group sailing in one of five classes. Ok, you drank the bong water correct?

This comes on the heels of the announcement that M-15 production is all caught up and you can get your new boat right away. That would indicate that everybody that has jumped on the bandwagon has done so already, the low hanging fruit is all gone. The lack of wait signals where the evolution curve truly is.

It would be a terrible decision but something somebody would for sure like to implement at US Sailing.

 

[Fretz]

I think this is a non productive exercise. People should sail what works for them locally and if it has a national presence its a bonus. Double handed classes should encourage people to continue to sail after jr sailing or college and hold on to sailors who are retiring from more expensive legacy classes. A double handed boat should support other classes not cannibalize them but most importantly we can't just loose sailors if the existing options didn't work for their circumstances.

We have had great success locally with the Melges 15 by being careful to not position it in opposition to an existing class. Owners range from parents looking for something fun for the kids to sail post Jr program to retirees who don't have the time or energy to sail more intense local classes. If there was a target market it's that 20-30 year old who just wasn't sailing at all and we have about 1/3 of the local fleet from that group.

Prior to the M15 I was encouraged to consider the Flying Scott by someone I respect in the industry. It was an existing class with a presence in NJ though not at clubs local to me. While I'm sure the FS is a great boat/class on its own I don't think we would have 21 boats in 3 seasons if it wasn't for the M15 being "new".

In my opinion its not so much the class or boat as the time. People who can afford the cost of sailing still have the same amount of time as people who cannot. As we introduced people to the 15 we made sure to focus on how easy it was to go from fully covered to sails up and most of our owners continue to marvel at just how easy it is. We also focus on lots of short races. Many days we were well under 3 hours from cover off to cover on and did 5 races.

 

[WorstPitManEver]

If we're going to consolidate at all (and not granting that premise) wouldn't it make more sense to focus on Olympic classes?

Those get changed every few years for irrational reasons.

 

[Steam Flyer]

If we're going to consolidate at all (and not granting that premise) wouldn't it make more sense to focus on Olympic classes?

Those get changed every few years for irrational reasons.

I dunno, the 470 has been in the Olympics forever. There used to be fleets of 470s racing at many clubs all around the US and Canada. A lot of people dropped out as the boats became really expensive to campaign and the class atmosphere became far less friendly.

 

[BrightAyes]

I dunno, the 470 has been in the Olympics forever. There used to be fleets of 470s racing at many clubs all around the US and Canada. A lot of people dropped out as the boats became really expensive to campaign and the class atmosphere became far less friendly.

and that, in a nutshell is the overall issue for sailing. "Expensive" and "less friendly". I think about all the asshat neocons I've had to listen to their shit about compared to the user-friendly casual cycling clubs popping up all over FB. Peeps of all shapes, sizes, colors and economies coming together to enjoy a ride together. Look around you average sailing club. All white. All old. All opinionated and none too friendly. If it weren't for the water and beauty of the sail, I'd walk away completely. Sailing, especially, competitive racing is frankly bunch of racist white folk feeling insecure about the world.

 

[VWAP]

and that, in a nutshell is the overall issue for sailing. "Expensive" and "less friendly". I think about all the asshat neocons I've had to listen to their shit about compared to the user-friendly casual cycling clubs popping up all over FB. Peeps of all shapes, sizes, colors and economies coming together to enjoy a ride together. Look around you average sailing club. All white. All old. All opinionated and none too friendly. If it weren't for the water and beauty of the sail, I'd walk away completely. Sailing, especially, competitive racing is frankly bunch of racist white folk feeling insecure about the world.

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