The Melges 15 / Future of American Double Handed Classes

[knh555]

I’d be happy to help you join our club’s active Star or Snipe fleets once you realize that’s where the double handed racing is at around here while the M15 is just a part of that very long list you gave us. Our two classes have proven themselves over time but certainly aren’t for everyone.

Or go buy something else.

What does it even mean to consolidate around a few classes? How would you make that happen when guys like me already invested in two Snipes and a Star.

 

[mustang__1]

why the fuck would the M15 be in the same discussion as FJ/420? Gonna go wreck some 13yo's when a boat designed for +350lbs powers up in 14kts? Ooooh, maybe you mean college? Yeah I see colleges springing for powered up boat to pay for that won't stand up to daily abuse and collisions as well as the current shitboxes they use.

 

[mustang__1]

You realise the early 29er sailors are well into their 40s now? When the 29er came out I predicted a new golden age of high performance sailing when loads of well trained kids with all the skills would graduate to the adult classes. Hasn't happened. The adult high performance classes are even weaker than they were then.

Speaking personally, I moved away from the water (ish) and the ability to feed and care for a dinghy outstripped the time I had - compared to showing up and throwing several thousand pounds of lead around a race course on someone else's dime. I do miss the 29er a lot, and since I never grew up to fit a 505, I think another one might be in my future... but that doesn't really help the racing unless a geriatric class is formed. One sort of existed back in 2013 at the Open Orange Bowl event in Coconut Grove - the even had a keggar for after racing (there were also lasers and i420's) but the last time I looked at the entry list it was more or less all <18's (home yacht club was not listed on the entry list).. Anywho, I forget where I was going with this. Oh, and I guess all that to say, I never got heavy enough to sail adult high performance boats anyway (at 135lbs)

 

[Curious2]

Fair point about your weight, Mustang, but the thing is that even people of average weight who have gone through the 29ers in the last 20 years have normally moved out of skiffs. That's totally against the expectations of all the people (and there were heaps of them, including lots of people on SA) who said that skiffs were the future of dinghy sailing.

When Henderson, head of World Sailing, brought in the 49er he said that he thought it would spur the development of lots of other popular skiff types just as the FD had spurred the development of one-trap dinghies like the 420, Fireball, Trapez, Korsar, 490, Javelin, etc. Instead, there's fewer skiff types in production and racing than there where when the 49er arrived.

From an Australian perspective, it wasn't hard to see that the "skiffs are the future" claim was wrong, because even here the skiffs were only really popular in one corner of the country, where gambling, alcohol and tax laws allowed clubs to throw money at the boats. Henderson and other leaders of the sport should have done some sober research and seen that, but their successors keep on making similar mistakes.

 

[Broseidon]

How much is a M15 worth ready to go sailing?

 

[sunseeker]

Fair point about your weight, Mustang, but the thing is that even people of average weight who have gone through the 29ers in the last 20 years have normally moved out of skiffs. That's totally against the expectations of all the people (and there were heaps of them, including lots of people on SA) who said that skiffs were the future of dinghy sailing.

When Henderson, head of World Sailing, brought in the 49er he said that he thought it would spur the development of lots of other popular skiff types just as the FD had spurred the development of one-trap dinghies like the 420, Fireball, Trapez, Korsar, 490, Javelin, etc. Instead, there's fewer skiff types in production and racing than there where when the 49er arrived.

From an Australian perspective, it wasn't hard to see that the "skiffs are the future" claim was wrong, because even here the skiffs were only really popular in one corner of the country, where gambling, alcohol and tax laws allowed clubs to throw money at the boats. Henderson and other leaders of the sport should have done some sober research and seen that, but their successors keep on making similar mistakes.

A lot of the changes were forced by the IOC. They wanted a better visual. It’s why kites are in now. It has nothing to do with overall popularity. As a percentage of the total racing population around the world, what share do you think kites get. Is it even 1%? I’ll bet it’s a fraction of that. But guaranteed kites is what will be the focus of sailing on tv.

People make the mistake of thinking it’s Olympic Sailing. It’s not. It’s Olympic sports reality tv show.

 

[Curious2]

A lot of the changes were forced by the IOC. They wanted a better visual. It’s why kites are in now. It has nothing to do with overall popularity. As a percentage of the total racing population around the world, what share do you think kites get. Is it even 1%? I’ll bet it’s a fraction of that. But guaranteed kites is what will be the focus of sailing on tv.

People make the mistake of thinking it’s Olympic Sailing. It’s not. It’s Olympic sports reality tv show.

If I recall correctly, there was a lot of controversy about whether the IOC were really demanding better visuals or not. Henderson was also saying that sailing's spot in the Games were completely safe. Given the way the IOC and its Olympic Programme Commission actually decide what events are in the Games, it seems that they don't always go for the reality show. While US dollars are important, the top-rated events vary enormously from country to country with sports like handball and table tennis often on top of the ratings.

You're dead right in that kites make up probably less than 1% of racing. The irony now is that having been brought in partly because they were the latest new thing, there's a lot of comment around that the kites are fading out and wingfoiling is becoming far more popular even amongst (ex-)kiters, so once again WS has tried to be cool and failed.

But irrespective of the Olympic visuals issue, the fact is that any objective data-based analysis would have shown Henderson et al (and the sailing media) that while skiffs are great, they were not going to take over from conventional dinghies; there's over a century of Australian and NZ experience to show that.

A boat like the M15, on the other hand, seems like a good example of where sailing is really heading; more towards medium-speed, practical boats.

 

[timz3818]

why the fuck would the M15 be in the same discussion as FJ/420? Gonna go wreck some 13yo's when a boat designed for +350lbs powers up in 14kts? Ooooh, maybe you mean college? Yeah I see colleges springing for powered up boat to pay for that won't stand up to daily abuse and collisions as well as the current shitboxes they use.

In a lot of ways the M15 is a logical progression up from the FJ or 420. The M15s weight is pretty similar to a C420 and sail area is around 30% higher.

The sail area difference sounds significant but the square top main accounts for most of the difference and it's easily depowered.

The crew weight range where the boat is manageable is pretty wide. I'm usually racing my M15 with a crew weight around 300lbs and the boat can handle fine with less. I've been out in 15-20kt with a combined crew weight around 240lbs and it didn't feel overpowered.

It's also worth noting that the M15 is a pretty mellow boat when sailed sans Spinnaker. To a new HS or college age sailor, I'd argue that it's a better platform than an FJ to start out on. That makes the M15 end up in the same conversation as the FJ/420 when people start talking about replacing club boats.

 

[Fretz]

How much is a M15 worth ready to go sailing?

about 17K for boat, sails, top and Blade covers and a dolly.

 

[Fretz]

Speaking personally, I moved away from the water (ish) and the ability to feed and care for a dinghy outstripped the time I had - compared to showing up and throwing several thousand pounds of lead around a race course on someone else's dime. I do miss the 29er a lot, and since I never grew up to fit a 505, I think another one might be in my future... but that doesn't really help the racing unless a geriatric class is formed. One sort of existed back in 2013 at the Open Orange Bowl event in Coconut Grove - the even had a keggar for after racing (there were also lasers and i420's) but the last time I looked at the entry list it was more or less all <18's (home yacht club was not listed on the entry list).. Anywho, I forget where I was going with this. Oh, and I guess all that to say, I never got heavy enough to sail adult high performance boats anyway (at 135lbs)

If you are still in philly there is a lot of activity with the M15 close to you. We'll start sailing in Toms River in April and the Annapolis group seems to be planning some spring events too. At 135 you can drive my boat and ill crew. 325 is a good weight overall.

We have a Jr sailor investing time in the 29er but it requires travel and lots of it. Hes now sailed 2 m15 regattas and placed well but more importantly he had fun. Hopefully when Jr and college sailing is over he remembers how much fun it was and stays involved.

 

[mustang__1]

If you are still in philly there is a lot of activity with the M15 close to you. We'll start sailing in Toms River in April and the Annapolis group seems to be planning some spring events too. At 135 you can drive my boat and ill crew. 325 is a good weight overall.

We have a Jr sailor investing time in the 29er but it requires travel and lots of it. Hes now sailed 2 m15 regattas and placed well but more importantly he had fun. Hopefully when Jr and college sailing is over he remembers how much fun it was and stays involved.

I might be up for that for a time or three, I'll shoot you a PM. Can't commit to regular though.

If the JR has any questions about the 29er let me know. The information I have is probably outdated and misremembered, but it's still my favorite dinghy I've sailed.

 

[mustang__1]

In a lot of ways the M15 is a logical progression up from the FJ or 420. The M15s weight is pretty similar to a C420 and sail area is around 30% higher.

The sail area difference sounds significant but the square top main accounts for most of the difference and it's easily depowered.

The crew weight range where the boat is manageable is pretty wide. I'm usually racing my M15 with a crew weight around 300lbs and the boat can handle fine with less. I've been out in 15-20kt with a combined crew weight around 240lbs and it didn't feel overpowered.

It's also worth noting that the M15 is a pretty mellow boat when sailed sans Spinnaker. To a new HS or college age sailor, I'd argue that it's a better platform than an FJ to start out on. That makes the M15 end up in the same conversation as the FJ/420 when people start talking about replacing club boats.

My issue was OP stating to "consolidate" to the M15. It's obviously a progression boat though.

 

[Steam Flyer]

My issue was OP stating to "consolidate" to the M15. It's obviously a progression boat though.

Just the latest in a never-ending series of people who insist "mine is better" and wants everybody else to get a boat like the one he likes. It never works out.

 

[mustang__1]

Just the latest in a never-ending series of people who insist "mine is better" and wants everybody else to get a boat like the one he likes. It never works out.

Eh... there has been some staying power from at least some boats. But yeah, it is an ever diluted pool. For some reason (money I guess) you can watch fleets explode in leadboats (Eg. melges 24, J24/J70/J.....) and then fade out to be generally well supported local fleets, but then in dinghies we never seem to get that explosion (M15 and V640/VX seem close?) and the staying power in broad local fleets seems very small... Unless talking about Snipes/Lightnings/FlightSquats, etc.

 

[knh555]

Eh... there has been some staying power from at least some boats. But yeah, it is an ever diluted pool. For some reason (money I guess) you can watch fleets explode in leadboats (Eg. melges 24, J24/J70/J.....) and then fade out to be generally well supported local fleets, but then in dinghies we never seem to get that explosion (M15 and V640/VX seem close?) and the staying power in broad local fleets seems very small... Unless talking about Snipes/Lightnings/FlightSquats, etc.

Perhaps one of the challenges is, the people most likely to jump to a new class are more likely to jump to a new class again, making it difficult to build enough critical mass to last beyond particular local interest. There's always going to be another hot new thing just around the corner.

I know for me (one of those guys sailing old hard-chined boats), a great boat is important, but so is the existing class organization and the existing networks and friendships. These different boats attract different people for different reasons.

In other words, it's the nature of the beast.

 

[[email protected]]

Actually if you look at what Melges 15 class has done in USA-- we haven't seen a new class get traction like this (in this tier of racing-- doublehanded non trap...) since the Vanguard 15 class in the mid/late 90's. V15s had a nice 25year+ run, and now Melges 15 steps in to fill that void, but with an easy to handle A-sail.

 

[Fretz]

Perhaps one of the challenges is, the people most likely to jump to a new class are more likely to jump to a new class again, making it difficult to build enough critical mass to last beyond particular local interest. There's always going to be another hot new thing just around the corner.

I know for me (one of those guys sailing old hard-chined boats), a great boat is important, but so is the existing class organization and the existing networks and friendships. These different boats attract different people for different reasons.

In other words, it's the nature of the beast.

I've been a member of my club for 17 years. The Melges 15 is the only new adult class in that time. When we started asking for commitments in 2020 I was warned that new doesn't work and an attempt at a previous class decades prior failed. We're 3 seasons on from that warning with 15 boats. Sailors at local clubs are beginning to buy boats too. Their reception at home is just as skeptical despite the fact that there is a fleet mere miles away.

I don't think our experience is unique. Great boats have failed because sailors and clubs are focused on preserving what they have vs asking if there is something better. The challenge feeds on itself the moment sailors recruit owners from existing fleets vs attempting to create new owners. A new fleet should should be an addition to boat ownership not a 1 for 1 replacement.

I agree 100% that the people and the events are just as important as the boat itself. Fortunately the owners involved early on, Melges and the dealers have had a lot of fun. Eventually these younger M15 sailors may want to go forth and pursue the same trophies their parent or grandparent did in an old hard chined boat. I'm confident that that class will be better off than if the sailor had taken the preceding years off.

 

[knh555]

I've been a member of my club for 17 years. The Melges 15 is the only new adult class in that time. When we started asking for commitments in 2020 I was warned that new doesn't work and an attempt at a previous class decades prior failed. We're 3 seasons on from that warning with 15 boats. Sailors at local clubs are beginning to buy boats too. Their reception at home is just as skeptical despite the fact that there is a fleet mere miles away.

I don't think our experience is unique. Great boats have failed because sailors and clubs are focused on preserving what they have vs asking if there is something better. The challenge feeds on itself the moment sailors recruit owners from existing fleets vs attempting to create new owners. A new fleet should should be an addition to boat ownership not a 1 for 1 replacement.

I agree 100% that the people and the events are just as important as the boat itself. Fortunately the owners involved early on, Melges and the dealers have had a lot of fun. Eventually these younger M15 sailors may want to go forth and pursue the same trophies their parent or grandparent did in an old hard chined boat. I'm confident that that class will be better off than if the sailor had taken the preceding years off.

I like the focus on addition vs transition. We added a Snipe fleet to our club that drew in new members without interfering too much with the Star fleet (a couple of us sail in both), which has grown in that time as well. More importantly, the Snipe fleet drew new blood into the class, which limited the impact on the other local Snipe fleet. We offered open water vs. super-shifty flat water nearby, so it's a different offering.

In our case, we had critical mass around Snipes, but that very easily could've been an M15 with the right initial, critical mass. 20ish years ago, however, someone tried to to the same with the V15 and it sputtered out before it ever got started. I even briefly considered adding a V15 to my program to sail there (I was on the lake at the time), but decided it was simply not a boat I wanted to own for a host of reasons. The M15 does look interesting and, if there's a local fleet, I could imagine at least checking it out. But like fleets everywhere, it takes a very strong personality or two to make things happen.

At least the M15 has a chine.

 

[spring fever]

There's a last-minute M15 charter available for the Winter Series in Jensen Beach, FL next week. If anyone is interested in checking out the boat and seeing what the class is all about, there's no better place than among a 71-boat lineup.

 

[sunseeker]

There's a last-minute M15 charter available for the Winter Series in Jensen Beach, FL next week. If anyone is interested in checking out the boat and seeing what the class is all about, there's no better place than among a 71-boat lineup.

I hope they are planning on hitting social media hard.