cottage park?I like the focus on addition vs transition. We added a Snipe fleet to our club that drew in new members without interfering too much with the Star fleet (a couple of us sail in both), which has grown in that time as well. More importantly, the Snipe fleet drew new blood into the class, which limited the impact on the other local Snipe fleet. We offered open water vs. super-shifty flat water nearby, so it's a different offering.
In our case, we had critical mass around Snipes, but that very easily could've been an M15 with the right initial, critical mass. 20ish years ago, however, someone tried to to the same with the V15 and it sputtered out before it ever got started. I even briefly considered adding a V15 to my program to sail there (I was on the lake at the time), but decided it was simply not a boat I wanted to own for a host of reasons. The M15 does look interesting and, if there's a local fleet, I could imagine at least checking it out. But like fleets everywhere, it takes a very strong personality or two to make things happen.
At least the M15 has a chine.
The Melges 15 / Future of American Double Handed Classes
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knh555
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Yes
I think the v15 analogy is great in that they both kept adults in dinghy racing and the sport. Which I guess is the whole point of this thread?
(Not sure the v15 really lasted 25 years or if it had quite the range or build quality melges 15 does)
mustang__1
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I'm not aware of any significant V15 fleets at the 25 year mark... I sailed buzzards bay in one back in... 2007? I think there were around 20. They had a little pocket in Newport for team racing as of 2013 at least. I'd see them at various clubs around the east coat but most looked pretty sad and unused.
Steam Flyer
Sophisticated Yet Humble
Yep. Biggest 2-hand spinnaker fleet around the eastern US that I see is either the Buccaneer, or the Flying Scot (4twinky for grampies & pop-pops).
The problem that sailing has everywhere, or at least everywhere I've sailed in the last decade, is that as the fleets decline the killjoys and the assholes are sticking with it, and have become a higher proportion of the participants. Buccaneers seem to have very few, which is one reason I chose that class. But until the guys (it's always boomer men) that are determined sailing cannot be fun for anyone else leave the sport, or we isolate them into a class of their own (I suggest J24s), it will be a struggle.
mustang__1
Super Anarchist
I mean, that said... V15 was never a spinnaker fleet. JADHH (just another double handed hiker).
The state of dinghy sailing in the US lies with the M-15 at this point. They are lucky in that the demand for the M-15 is hot and that the demand and wait for an MC has evaporated. There are no MC's in the pipeline at this point. This will allow the builder to purely focus on the M-15. Probably a great move for sailing.
On the down side, the M15 has gutted some of the other scow fleets.
knh555
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Which begs the question, is the M15 growing sailing or primarily transferring interest from one class to another? And if so, is that good for sailing?
Well not everyone can afford a $350k A scow or now the newly released price of an E Scow turnkey is $110k plus. You do not know when you would get either. The next thing you know is that the school house is going to get condemmed and another factory building pops up. I guess wishful thinking.
So yes if the M-15 is all that is left rally around the survivor.
knh555
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Comparing a double-handed 15 footer to an A scow or E scow just seems odd.
Ill speak to NJ only.
About 50% of M15 owners didn't have another racing boat. We do have some M15 owners who also have an E scow. The E remains their focus during the summer season and the 15 is raced in off season and Florida. We have several active E crew who own 15's. They are committed to the E scow and sail the 15 when they can.
The MC fleet is strong. Some lighter teams have sailed both but I'm not aware of any jumps from the MC fleet. If you can sail a MC solo then you are in a great spot. There is still a fleet of M16's that remains strong. The racing is fun amongst competitive friends so I don't see anyone leaving that fleet for the 15.
We have parents who want Jr sailors to have more options to sail. they focus on laser or 420 but hit a few regattas when they are able. The 15 is just sailed for fun. If a parent/grandparent is willing to fund an E program the M15 isn't going to prevent that from happening.
The E fleet in NJ trends up and down. It was trending down before the 15 came on the scene. The production delay made it appear worse than it is. There is a committed group of owners and we remain confident that the next up trend will be stronger because of the age group that is sailing the 15's for fun today. The E is the top boat on Barnegat Bay and we hope that never changes. The more 15s racing means a higher chance of sailors making the decision to get an E and compete on that level.
Doesn't it? Damn it was more of a use of resources type response but hey if you can get them to build anything take your choice. The plus side is that they have now finished boats off to their prior level of finish which is a huge win for all of us. Enough of that 400# grit is good enough crap.
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That's not really what I've been observing.
The E and A fleets are and always will be their own appeal - a team sport. It's a big commitment, and the downwind ride on one of them is a unique experience. It's hard to describe the feeling of these boats to those who haven't sailed them, but I don't see the M15 encroaching on them. Also, for those who didn't get (or didn't read) the ILYA email a week or two ago, it sounds like Melges has finally gotten their E-scow tooling ready to go and is actually building some boats.
The MC is primary a single-hander, and it seems to be doing fantastically well right now. Transitioning back to the open cockpit seemed to generate a lot of new sales. I doubt the M15 is hurting the MC fleet at all, especially since the barrier to entry in the MC fleet is drastically lower.
The main way that the M15 hurt the scows is that it ate up most of Melges' production capacity for two and a half years, but that seems to be changing.
Your right on the capacity changing, there is no wait for M-15's and MC's at this point. All the MC orders have been filled and there is supposedly nothing in the pipeline which bodes well for the E program.
The V15 got killed when LP bought Vanguard and LP never built another V15. That was in 2007, the fleet has been dying since. The boats got old and soft and without new boats coming into the fleet, numbers slowly fell off.
The V15 had a different demographic, skewing younger and a lot more past college sailors. The M15 has a wider age range and pulls from a wider audience.
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well put. All boats involve a series of compromises, and I think the bottom line here is that Melges has really well thought out the design of the boat and class, leading to nice size fleets and great racing at rock-bottom prices for people 16-70+ here
knh555
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But why did they abandon the boat? If the V15 was selling well, perhaps they would’ve kept building them. Is it a boat worth owning or do they just go soft? I’m curious where the M15 fits on that score.
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Fleet 53 in SF is one, but true, not many...
Foredeck Shuffle
More of a Stoic Cynic, Anarchy Sounds Exhausting
LP stopped building Laser parts for most of a decade and hulls outside of what was needed for major events was thin on the ground. This created the opportunity for the Aero. LP built no V15's even though there was demand. Club I was at that had a very active fleet wanted new ones. Fortunately everyone graduated to bigger boats rather than leave entirely, some of us went down to Laser's. Some of us started exploring better boats. Aluminum mast and non-self draining, just seems backwards.
