The serious transgender bathroom issue discussion

[Sol Rosenberg]

I am definitely not trying to distract from the conversation. I am serious in asking how does one, in a written regulation or law, differentiate between a cisgender pretending to be transgender and a real transgender? I don't think it is possible, and it certainly is not contained in the directive from the feds.

Sure they can. When they realize that little Johnny is using the girls room, and hasn't let the administration know about being transgender.

I can't imagine the amount of crap these people have to endure, or that anyone would want to go through it for fun. The lack of real world problems indicates that such is the case. Of course, we will now get a rash of men causing problems in women's bathrooms, to try to prove the point, a number I predict will far exceed the number of transgender people causing trouble.

Well, yeah. That is kinda my point, and without any criteria for determining when someone is really a transgender, I think there is little that schools could do to deal with Johnny whether he tells them he is transgendered or not. I am not expecting the trouble to come from actual transgendered people, at least not for the most part. Primarily, I expect trouble to come from troublemakers who use hastily written and poorly thought out laws and regulations as cover for being deviants and dickheads.

So - why did North Carolina decide to open pandora's box?

Looks like Sol is right. There was no issue before, now there is a forced solution which won't work as well as when folks just dealt with it. Or much more likely, didn't know they were dealing with it.

I lay this squarely on the bigots in the NC statehouse.

That's BS. This is squarely on the CLT City council. In an exceedingly LGBT friendly city, why did they have to pass the bathroom law. It had been working fine to this point. What problem were they solving? None, they were trying to set precedent and start the seeds of a nationwide movement into less-LGBT friendly areas.

All you who are saying there is no current problem, why does it need to be addressed are shooting yourselves in the foot. If that is the case, then the LGBT initiatives are going to lose their impetus. Best you just hush up if you want to help them.

They didn't pass a bathroom law. They added categories to the pre-existing non discrimination ordinance. It was the NC law that got all interested in bathrooms. Why did Charlotte do it? Good for business, for one thing. There's a good discussion of the reasons behind it here, if you really want an answer.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

So - why did North Carolina decide to open pandora's box?

Looks like Sol is right. There was no issue before, now there is a forced solution which won't work as well as when folks just dealt with it. Or much more likely, didn't know they were dealing with it.

I lay this squarely on the bigots in the NC statehouse.

That's BS. This is squarely on the CLT City council. In an exceedingly LGBT friendly city, why did they have to pass the bathroom law. It had been working fine to this point. What problem were they solving? None, they were trying to set precedent and start the seeds of a nationwide movement into less-LGBT friendly areas.

All you who are saying there is no current problem, why does it need to be addressed are shooting yourselves in the foot. If that is the case, then the LGBT initiatives are going to lose their impetus. Best you just hush up if you want to help them.

i don't know what the issues were in Charlotte. But they seemed to have a local solution. It's the big gov't types that are happy now, on both sides.

Then fucking educate yourself. You've been spouting off here for days that there is no issue so why did this have to come to a head. Well tell me the issue in CLT that prompted their push of their bathroom law. The reality was there was no issue. The CLT city council was manufacturing a solution to a non-issue so they could push an agenda. And that agenda was:

"Hey look at us. Look how fucking progressive and LGBT friendly we are".

I also think they correctly anticipated the NC legislature reaction and deliberately kicked the hornets nest to get attention to this "non" issue.

In places where discrimination is legal, there is not likely to be a record of discrimination, at least until we start seeing transgender people hanging from trees. THe rationale for Charlotte's addition of categories to its non discrimination ordinance is spelled out here: http://charlotteequality.strikingly.com/

 

[A guy in the Chesapeake]

Excerpted from Sol's article:
"

Are there past examples of discrimination in the City of Charlotte?
Charlotte’s Community Relations Committee receives and reviews formal complaints from citizens who feel they have been discriminated against in a public place or in housing because of their race, color, religion, national origin, gender, family status or disability. However, the city does not keep track of cases of discrimination based on other factors such as a person’s sexual orientation, gender identity or expression or marital status.



Why should the City of Charlotte, and not the state or federal government, pass non-discrimination ordinances?

...... It is Charlotte’s responsibility to ensure that all residents of and visitors to Charlotte are treated with dignity and respect, and passing inclusive non-discrimination ordinances would be a statement of the city’s values. Proclaiming that Charlotte is a city where diversity is celebrated and people respect one another is a fundamental part of the city’s character and has many powerful reverberations; however, updating non-discrimination ordinances would be more than a symbol. Such public statements have very real consequences.

For example, in a recent survey conducted by the Human Rights Campaign, 92% of LGBT
youth said that they hear negative messages about being LGBT.

Sixty percent of these youth said that they hear such messages from their elected leaders.

About a third of LGBT youth surveyed said that their local government is not accepting, and
63% said that they will need to move to another town or part of the country to feel
accepted (they are twice as likely as their straight peers to say that they will need to move
to feel accepted).

Inclusive non-discrimination ordinances would provide these young people, as well as the many other individuals who face discrimination, with a city where they could feel accepted. (end excerpted copy/paste)
*****************************************************************************************************************
So - it would appear that the problem the Charlotte City Council was trying to address was people responding to the T-community's behavior and appearance in a way that made them feel socially unaccepted.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

And there is this:

Why should Charlotte update its non-discrimination ordinances now?

• All residents of and visitors to Charlotte should be treated fairly and equally by the laws of our city.
• Arbitrary discrimination against any individual or group is detrimental to the peace, progress, and welfare of the city and ill-suits a community that values diversity.
  
• Updated non-discrimination ordinances will strengthen the community by fostering an atmosphere of respect and inclusivity. It will send the message that Charlotte is a welcoming place to live, work, and raise a family.
  
• Recent demographic research by Richard Florida, author of The Rise of the Creative Class, and others shows that cities that are perceived to be welcoming, inclusive communities are better able to attract and retain top talent and cutting-edge businesses.
  
• The “creative class”—the entrepreneurs and big thinkers who engage in the business of innovation—take a city’s commitment to diversity seriously when deciding where to locate.
  
• Cities with inclusive non-discrimination ordinances signal to employers and employees alike that their communities welcome and celebrate diversity.
• 94% of FORTUNE 500 companies have inclusive nondiscrimination policies because they know that these policies help attract and retain the best talent.
  

 

[Guest]

What cases of discrimination can you show that was happening in CLT to prompt this measure?

Remember that the bar YOU and Rzr set was that this had to be actually happening in the real world before politicians were allowed to act and pass laws. Just saying.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

What cases of discrimination can you show that was happening in CLT to prompt this measure?

Remember that the bar YOU and Rzr set was that this had to be actually happening in the real world before politicians were allowed to act and pass laws. Just saying.

See post 571. Discrimination was legal in Charlotte. Why would there be a record of it? The justification for adding categories to the Charlotte NDO was as stated above, it's good for business. The justification for the NC Potty Bill was to keep our wimminfolk safe from the pervy people who ain't like us'ns, because they would use their newfound rights to peep on our wimmin. The rationale for one of those enactments is based on imagining what could happen. That would be the potty bill, which strips not just the right to pick a potty, but the right for a number of groups to access courts for discrimination.

I'm not going to apologize for being unwilling to wink and nod and say that stripping people of their rights is the fault of the people stripped. We've been down that path before with those pesky nigras who caused all the trouble by sitting at lunch counters and refusing to sit in the back of the bus. It was all their fault!

 

[Gouvernail]

@ gov - if that woman does say she's uncomfortable with a biological man in the woman's locker room, what accommodation would/should we give her? A private shower? What if she refuses just as the tranny boy refuses to use a separate shower?

Do we boot her out of her own locker room, suck it up and say to go to class sweaty and you can damn well shower when you get home?

Its that what you're saying?

Neither seems like a very nice solution

Bear in mind, I believe you are asking for a detailed solution to an extremely unlikely hypothetical.

You are suggesting some female is going to claim a need for access to a solution to a problem

I don't believe will ever exist.

"There is a person in the locker room I would like to use whose presence violates my freedom. "

"How does this person's presence violate your freedom"

"The person has a dangly thing between the legs."

"And?"

"?????? OK.... I can't fill in this part because I have no idea why anyone would possibly give a rat's parootie about a dangly thing hanging off a person who is in every other way playing the time of a female

So, I have no idea what accommodations such a person might need.

She might be grossed out, frightened, amazed, jealous, turned on, revolted...

I don't have Ny idea what the hypothetical petitioner wants, needs, or any way to predict what might be fair.

I can guarantee this. If I were a teacher or administrator T her school Snd confronted with this situation, I would sit down and chat with the petitioner and do my very best to serve her needs.

In fact, I am fully confident I could work with her to absolutely solve the problem in a way she would find acceptable

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

Myth #3: Letting trans people use the bathroom matching their gender identity is dangerousTransgender people generally prefer using the bathroom that matches their gender identity, not the one that corresponds with the gender they were assigned at birth. But critics argue that this could expose others to sexual voyeurism and assault in bathrooms — even though there's no evidence to support this claim.

Former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee perpetuated this myth at a 2015 convention, stating, "Now I wish that someone told me that when I was in high school that I could have felt like a woman when it came time to take showers in PE. I'm pretty sure that I would have found my feminine side and said, 'Coach, I think I'd rather shower with the girls today.'"

But as Media Matters pointed out, experts from 12 states that protect trans rights have thoroughly refuted this talking point. In the US, there's not a single reported instance of this kind of voyeurism occurring in states with legal protections for trans people.

http://www.vox.com/2016/5/17/11692494/transgender-bathrooms-creepy

 

[Gouvernail]

Suppose Sol decides he' a cat today. Does he deserve a litter box accommodation?

Interesting question.

Sort of off topic??

This discussion could fill another thread.

Does he ?

Maybe? Maybe not.

Litter boxes are not sexually segregated.

If Sol is of the opinion he is a cat and begins doing his very best to live as a cat he will NEED a litter box or he will go shit in the neighborhood sandboxes, mulch, leaf piles and similar.

Sol would willingly shit with the female cats but he might tend to get in fights with the males.

Unless Sol thinks he is a girl cat

Would Sol think he is a house cAt or would he believe he is a cat that is more his size?

Would Sol attack people? Would he jump

In their laps and knead his paws while purring?

Would Sol play with your balls?

Would Sol have nine lives and should we expect 480,000 additional posts?

Would Sol be neutered??

Etc

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

I shit outside the box.

 

[Saorsa]

Excerpted from Sol's article:

"

So - it would appear that the problem the Charlotte City Council was trying to address was people responding to the T-community's behavior and appearance in a way that made them feel socially unaccepted.

Why must they be accepted? Isn't tolerance sufficient?

Apparently not according to the HuffPO.

I think our relationships with others have any number of facets. I am certainly capable of considering a gay or transgender or whatever and accepting them as a competent human being in those areas where our interests overlap. But their sexuality has nothing whatever to do with that acceptance as far as I'm concerned. Acceptance comes when a community of common interest develops between people. Sailing, photography, volunteer work, whatever. Within my own life those communities intersect and I recognize that I don't have any claim on others in any of the communities.

I may share some interests with the asshole who protests every single race but I don't accept him, I tolerate him because there are enough other folks to form a community of sailors.

Whiney little shits who demand that others accept them are folks who can't recognize or deal with the fact that being outside the norm is their problem and they can't deal with themselves.

 

[Spatial Ed]

If it walks like a dick and quacks like a dick, it's a dick.

Says the expert on quackery.

 

[Not My Real Name]

@ gov - if that woman does say she's uncomfortable with a biological man in the woman's locker room, what accommodation would/should we give her? A private shower? What if she refuses just as the tranny boy refuses to use a separate shower?

Do we boot her out of her own locker room, suck it up and say to go to class sweaty and you can damn well shower when you get home?

Its that what you're saying?

Nobody is suggesting that cisgender males should be allowed to use the female bathroom. That is a red herring.

What would be the problem with cisgender males using the female bathroom. What if they felt feminine that day and just needed to sit in a stall that didn't reek of ball-sweat, urine sprayed on the floor and instead wanted the couch and the nice smell of candles in the ladies restroom? Why would you deny him that?

And to think you were pretending this was a "serious" discussion.

 

[Spatial Ed]

Jeff seems to know a lot about ladies restrooms.

 

[another 505 sailor]

@ gov - if that woman does say she's uncomfortable with a biological man in the woman's locker room, what accommodation would/should we give her? A private shower? What if she refuses just as the tranny boy refuses to use a separate shower?

Do we boot her out of her own locker room, suck it up and say to go to class sweaty and you can damn well shower when you get home?

Its that what you're saying?

There were people who were uncomfortable sharing a lunch counter with non-whites.

And there are people today who are uncomfortable sharing the road with Asian drivers.

Is society better served by ignoring the discomfort of those people?

This thread has run its course. Perhaps it's time for you to start the Official Transgender Bathroom thread.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

https://www.yahoo.com/beauty/women-harassed-in-bathroom-for-appearing-205610620.html

And it's started. The Illiterati are here to protect us.

 

[Spatial Ed]

https://www.yahoo.com/beauty/women-harassed-in-bathroom-for-appearing-205610620.html

And it's started. The Illiterati are here to protect us.

Feel for these poor chaps.http://menwholooklikeoldlesbians.blogspot.com

 

[dreadom]

I return to my earlier comments; the current situation is disappointing but not unexpected in a nation so full of fear and hate.

 

[Dog]

So what makes a transgender person's discomfort sharing a bathroom with members of their own biological sex more deserving of accommodation than a cisgender person's discomfort sharing a bathroom with a person of the opposite biological sex?

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

So what makes a transgender person's discomfort sharing a bathroom with members of their own biological sex more deserving of accommodation than a cisgender person's discomfort sharing a bathroom with a person of the opposite biological sex?

Who said it was?