The serious transgender bathroom issue discussion

[Hard On The Wind]

But Jeff and Friends are CONVINCED we are about to see an epidemic of transgenders clamoring to change with the girls.

it's this years EBOLA!!!!

These guys are not unreasonable. I stopped wasting time with folks who cannot be reasonable, other than for the five minutes or maybe ten, before abject mockery loses its edge.... We haven't seen much of this, so it can be used, like ebola, to cause fear. It's like foilers. What in tarnation are these newfangled flying thingamajigs doing on the water, screwing up our race courses? In reality, foilers have been around for quite some time. So it causes some discomfort. I get that. It shouldn't, because it's been around awhile, and the locals know how to deal with it. It's not an idea that just popped up overnight, it's been around quite a while. Sometimes, it just takes a bit of time to get used to it. We're human. We can learn. http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a44994/canada-transgender-rights/

Get your foiler a PHRF rating and come race against our fleet of 5kt shit boxes on our local venue where the wind rarely exceeds 8knots on a summer race night. Happy to feed you beer in the clubhouse after the sailing is through.

 

[slatfatf]

Our local school district responding to the non-change in guidelines and directives from the feds:

The transgender student bathroom discussion has come to the local level.

The East Stroudsburg Area School Board's policy committee is discussing on how to treat transgender and nonconforming gender students when it comes to bathroom use. The committee isn't taking any action to send a policy to the rest of the board, though.

Eric Forsyth, director of administrative services, said the administration proactively began development of the policy on its own. At a March policy committee meeting, he presented a drafted policy to the committee and asked the for direction as to how liberal they wish to be and if the policy should be based on gender identity or the anatomically correct gender.

Since the policy is still being drafted and has not been submitted to a quorum of the board for deliberation, he couldn't comment on the main points of the policy until the committee would elect to post a final draft for public review, Forysth said Tuesday.

When the time comes for that, the public will have at least 30 days prior to any board action to adopt the policy to review the policy.

Judy Summers, chair of the policy committee, said the group won’t make any final decisions until the Pennsylvania School Boards Association drafts a policy they could use.

“It’s too new to know where to go with it,” she said at the policy committee meeting Monday.

Administrators said there are two or three known affected students at the South high school and two students at the North high school. They currently use a bathroom in the nurse’s suite during the day and there haven’t been any problems.

Emily Leader, senior deputy of general counsel with the PSBA, said when it does draft a policy, they do so based on settled law.

“The problem with this area of law is that it really isn’t settled yet,” she said Tuesday. The PSBA isn't sure where this issue is going to end up. They can’t tell school districts what policies to write until the law says it clearly.

That can’t stop a district from adopting a policy on their own, however, Leader said, districts should be aware that anything that won’t be consistent with whatever guidance PSBA may settle on can be called in as a complaint.

On Friday, the U.S. Departments of Education and Justice released joint guidance on the issue reminding districts that compliance with Title IX is a condition of receiving federal funds and a school agrees that it will not exclude, separate, deny benefits or otherwise treat any person different on the basis of sex in its educational programs or activities.

Summers said that until the issue is sorted out, the discussion could get ugly.

“If this isn’t handled properly through PSBA, we are sitting on an edge of a cliff if we don’t do the right thing,” Summers said. “That’s why we aren’t’ doing anything until PSBA gives us the lead and tells us the way to go.”

The policy committee meets on the third Monday of the month at 5 p.m.

emphasis from me.

http://www.poconorecord.com/news/20160518/east-stroudsburg-school-weighs-transgender-bathroom-position

This is probably going to cost me another 5k per year in property taxes to fix.

It absolutely could get expensive, if they force a kid who looks like a girl, acts like a girl, identifies as a girl, to use the boys facilities because the child was born with a pecker. Expensive in many was, not just money.

But if they're taking fed money, they have to comply with Title IX. Look at the uproar at FSU over the girl who was allegedly raped by the star football player. The criminal justice system swept it under the rug, but what got the alleged victim her day in court (albeit a kangaroo court) was Title IX. Nobody wants the federal funds to be cut off.

I suspect it will get expensive either way, unless reason kicks in and that is in terribly short supply lately. As mentioned in the article, the district is trying to accommodate now by providing private facilities for them. Depending on where they are in transitioning, that could be the best that could be done for all involved outside of constructing non-gender specific facilities. The fear is that based on the new guidelines, separate private facilities for those cases is not acceptable. This is not some uber-christian demographic here, it is the most ethnically diverse county in the state, and more than half the families with students in the school resided on the wrong side of the Delaware River less than 2 decades ago. There are probably as many devout Muslims as devout Christians. If it is an issue for our district, it will be an issue for many many districts. If separate private facilities is never an option, then I believe we are headed to eliminating gender specific facilities altogether and providing private facilities for all. I don't think it is the end of the world, but it will be expensive and will strain many districts where they are already strained to keep adequate teaching in place. As an example, and MSS could probably speak to this better than me, we have a substantial issue with equitably distributing school funding as it is. My district is one of the ones on the short end, and it is more than reflected in what I pay in school taxes now. When we were looking at buying more houses to run vacation rentals from, we looked at some houses priced at 200k with a 15k tax bill. This is in a state where there is also a substantial income tax, so it really is a considerable burden. There is not a lot of room to make up expenses through increased taxes, so that means the money for updating facilities will come from cuts to salaries. I don't want to see people discriminated against, and don't want anyone to feel like they don't belong, but I also don't want to run headlong into a wall of unintended consequences.

 

[Raz'r]

Our local school district responding to the non-change in guidelines and directives from the feds:

The transgender student bathroom discussion has come to the local level.

The East Stroudsburg Area School Board's policy committee is discussing on how to treat transgender and nonconforming gender students when it comes to bathroom use. The committee isn't taking any action to send a policy to the rest of the board, though.

Eric Forsyth, director of administrative services, said the administration proactively began development of the policy on its own. At a March policy committee meeting, he presented a drafted policy to the committee and asked the for direction as to how liberal they wish to be and if the policy should be based on gender identity or the anatomically correct gender.

Since the policy is still being drafted and has not been submitted to a quorum of the board for deliberation, he couldn't comment on the main points of the policy until the committee would elect to post a final draft for public review, Forysth said Tuesday.

When the time comes for that, the public will have at least 30 days prior to any board action to adopt the policy to review the policy.

Judy Summers, chair of the policy committee, said the group won’t make any final decisions until the Pennsylvania School Boards Association drafts a policy they could use.

“It’s too new to know where to go with it,” she said at the policy committee meeting Monday.

Administrators said there are two or three known affected students at the South high school and two students at the North high school. They currently use a bathroom in the nurse’s suite during the day and there haven’t been any problems.

Emily Leader, senior deputy of general counsel with the PSBA, said when it does draft a policy, they do so based on settled law.

“The problem with this area of law is that it really isn’t settled yet,” she said Tuesday. The PSBA isn't sure where this issue is going to end up. They can’t tell school districts what policies to write until the law says it clearly.

That can’t stop a district from adopting a policy on their own, however, Leader said, districts should be aware that anything that won’t be consistent with whatever guidance PSBA may settle on can be called in as a complaint.

On Friday, the U.S. Departments of Education and Justice released joint guidance on the issue reminding districts that compliance with Title IX is a condition of receiving federal funds and a school agrees that it will not exclude, separate, deny benefits or otherwise treat any person different on the basis of sex in its educational programs or activities.

Summers said that until the issue is sorted out, the discussion could get ugly.

“If this isn’t handled properly through PSBA, we are sitting on an edge of a cliff if we don’t do the right thing,” Summers said. “That’s why we aren’t’ doing anything until PSBA gives us the lead and tells us the way to go.”

The policy committee meets on the third Monday of the month at 5 p.m.

emphasis from me.

http://www.poconorecord.com/news/20160518/east-stroudsburg-school-weighs-transgender-bathroom-position

This is probably going to cost me another 5k per year in property taxes to fix.

It absolutely could get expensive, if they force a kid who looks like a girl, acts like a girl, identifies as a girl, to use the boys facilities because the child was born with a pecker. Expensive in many was, not just money.

But if they're taking fed money, they have to comply with Title IX. Look at the uproar at FSU over the girl who was allegedly raped by the star football player. The criminal justice system swept it under the rug, but what got the alleged victim her day in court (albeit a kangaroo court) was Title IX. Nobody wants the federal funds to be cut off.

I suspect it will get expensive either way, unless reason kicks in and that is in terribly short supply lately. As mentioned in the article, the district is trying to accommodate now by providing private facilities for them. Depending on where they are in transitioning, that could be the best that could be done for all involved outside of constructing non-gender specific facilities. The fear is that based on the new guidelines, separate private facilities for those cases is not acceptable. This is not some uber-christian demographic here, it is the most ethnically diverse county in the state, and more than half the families with students in the school resided on the wrong side of the Delaware River less than 2 decades ago. There are probably as many devout Muslims as devout Christians. If it is an issue for our district, it will be an issue for many many districts. If separate private facilities is never an option, then I believe we are headed to eliminating gender specific facilities altogether and providing private facilities for all. I don't think it is the end of the world, but it will be expensive and will strain many districts where they are already strained to keep adequate teaching in place. As an example, and MSS could probably speak to this better than me, we have a substantial issue with equitably distributing school funding as it is. My district is one of the ones on the short end, and it is more than reflected in what I pay in school taxes now. When we were looking at buying more houses to run vacation rentals from, we looked at some houses priced at 200k with a 15k tax bill. This is in a state where there is also a substantial income tax, so it really is a considerable burden. There is not a lot of room to make up expenses through increased taxes, so that means the money for updating facilities will come from cuts to salaries. I don't want to see people discriminated against, and don't want anyone to feel like they don't belong, but I also don't want to run headlong into a wall of unintended consequences.

It's ONE case. One.

EBOLA!

 

[slatfatf]

It is not just about one case, it is the anticipated fallout from the new fed directives. Read the article I linked to regarding my local district. It does not matter how many cases there are, it matters what the feds tell districts they have to do.

 

[A guy in the Chesapeake]

<SNIP>

It's ONE case. One.

EBOLA!

One case? - 700K reported in the US (accepting Sol's #s) ? 17 states w/policies already? Even Len's local article stated that there are 5 local students to whom the policy would immediately apply. One case? yeah.

Everyone else's concerns are irrelevant as long as there's a protected class involved? Gotcha.

 

[Spatial Ed]

This is about a local community trying to protect the rights of all of its citizens. And the state decided that was not going to be tolerated so they rushed to crush it. They way overstepped their response. So the feds had to step in and correct the state. Had the state just let locals deal with the situation it wouldn't have gotten to this point.

BTW, this isn't just about potty police, its about not allowing a community to protect all its citizens as they see fit.

 

[Raz'r]

<SNIP>

It's ONE case. One.

EBOLA!

One case? - 700K reported in the US (accepting Sol's #s) ? 17 states w/policies already? Even Len's local article stated that there are 5 local students to whom the policy would immediately apply. One case? yeah.

Everyone else's concerns are irrelevant as long as there's a protected class involved? Gotcha.

Ebola!

 

[A guy in the Chesapeake]

<SNIP>

Ebola!

Aids!

 

[Guest]

I was thinking about something from an article that Sol shared above trying to explain the chromosomal basis for feeling transgendered. It seems to me that if we are to accept that gender isn't binary, than perhaps the solutions to gender "acceptance" shouldn't be either.

If we stipulate to that, then it is indeed the case that the trans-kids who are pushing for inclusion into the facilities of their chosen gender identity are the ones who are being intrusive, and that the only equitable solutions are to provide separate facilities for each possible permutation of "gender identity", or to eliminate communal facilities altogether.

So we're gonna circle back to the separate but equal discussion today? We've already covered why that was wrong in the 50s and 60s and why it is wrong now.
Shall we provide them with separate water fountains too? How can we know what perversity rests upon their lips, for transfer to innocents via the water fountain?

apologies for the snark. I just cannot believe that we are having this discussion again.

You're missing the point completely, Counselor - you expect others to accept that gender isn't binary? OK. If we do so - then why should you try to force a binary gender accommodation?

I contend that the gender confused kids have issues. I also contend that the solution to those issues shouldn't marginalize or cause additional issues for their schoolmates. I further contend that the discomfort experienced by any "cisgender" kid is as valid and should be treated as seriously as any discomfort felt by the gender confused kid.

So - I'm not at "separate but equal" even though in this case, it is appropriate from every perspective aside from little johny who wants to be janey's feelings that they aren't accepted if they aren't with the "cisgirls".

Little johny who wants to be janey has issues, and it's little johny who wants to be janey who has to adjust to resolve those issues - not everyone else, and that the proponents of forcing everyone else to adjust to accommodate little johny who wants to be janey are being disingenuous in their dismissal of everyone else's discomfort. Gender != race - as much as you are trying to conflate the two.

The only equitable fix I see is the elimination of communal facilities altogether.

Yup

 

[nannygovtsucks]

Texas Gov: "JFK Wanted To Send Man To Moon — Obama Wants To Send Man To Ladies Room."


lol.

 

[another 505 sailor]

Texas Gov: "JFK Wanted To Send Man To Moon — Obama Wants To Send Man To Ladies Room."

lol.

Reminds me of the governor of Alabama.

"Let us rise to the call of freedom-loving blood that is in us, and send our answer to the tyranny that clanks its chains upon the South," Wallace declared from the podium. "In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth, I draw a line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and I say, segregation now, segregation tomorrow and segregation forever."

 

[Hard On The Wind]

Wonders of surgery and hormones.

 

[Not My Real Name]

@ gov - if that woman does say she's uncomfortable with a biological man in the woman's locker room, what accommodation would/should we give her? A private shower? What if she refuses just as the tranny boy refuses to use a separate shower?

Do we boot her out of her own locker room, suck it up and say to go to class sweaty and you can damn well shower when you get home?

Its that what you're saying?

Neither seems like a very nice solution

Bear in mind, I believe you are asking for a detailed solution to an extremely unlikely hypothetical.

You are suggesting some female is going to claim a need for access to a solution to a problem

I don't believe will ever exist.

"There is a person in the locker room I would like to use whose presence violates my freedom. "

"How does this person's presence violate your freedom"

"The person has a dangly thing between the legs."

"And?"

"?????? OK.... I can't fill in this part because I have no idea why anyone would possibly give a rat's parootie about a dangly thing hanging off a person who is in every other way playing the time of a female

So, I have no idea what accommodations such a person might need.

She might be grossed out, frightened, amazed, jealous, turned on, revolted...

I don't have Ny idea what the hypothetical petitioner wants, needs, or any way to predict what might be fair.

I can guarantee this. If I were a teacher or administrator T her school Snd confronted with this situation, I would sit down and chat with the petitioner and do my very best to serve her needs.

In fact, I am fully confident I could work with her to absolutely solve the problem in a way she would find acceptable

But yet the trannies could not be accommodated in any way they would find acceptable other than to force all the other girls to shower with him?

By your reasoning above, gov, if you claim it would be unfathomable that a girl would have a problem with a "girl" with dangly bits showering next to her - why then would a tranny "girl" have a problem going into a men's room? Does (s)he also not want to have to be exposed to dangly bits in the shower room too? Seems like an amazing double standard you are building here.

Think about that.....

You are missing a crucial difference. The cisgender female who feels uncomfortable is an ignorant bigot, the transexual who feels uncomfortable is a victim. It is not open for discussion, as evidenced by this thread.

You are missing a crucial difference.

The transgender woman who is forced to use a men's room is quite likely to get the shit beat out of her by a bunch of mouth breathing goobers.

A transgender man forced to use a ladies room is going to get the cops called on him and get arrested, because he is is complying with the law that says he has to piss where his genes say.

This is a transgender man, genetically female, in the ladies room he is being forced to use:

How do you think that's going to go over?

The reverse is with transgender woman. They look as female as this guy looks male. And these laws will send them into the men's room. Where they will get harmed.

 

[nannygovtsucks]

Texas Gov: "JFK Wanted To Send Man To Moon — Obama Wants To Send Man To Ladies Room."

lol.

Reminds me of the governor of Alabama.

"Let us rise to the call of freedom-loving blood that is in us, and send our answer to the tyranny that clanks its chains upon the South," Wallace declared from the podium. "In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth, I draw a line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and I say, segregation now, segregation tomorrow and segregation forever."

George Wallace, democrat.

 

[Spatial Ed]

Forcing transformers into their birth gene bathrooms will make everyone uncomfortable. I thought we were trying to make people comfortable?

 

[Bent Sailor]

Texas Gov: "JFK Wanted To Send Man To Moon — Obama Wants To Send Man To Ladies Room."

lol.

Reminds me of the governor of Alabama.

"Let us rise to the call of freedom-loving blood that is in us, and send our answer to the tyranny that clanks its chains upon the South," Wallace declared from the podium. "In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth, I draw a line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and I say, segregation now, segregation tomorrow and segregation forever."

George Wallace, democrat.

Your point being?

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

Texas Gov: "JFK Wanted To Send Man To Moon — Obama Wants To Send Man To Ladies Room."

lol.

Reminds me of the governor of Alabama.

"Let us rise to the call of freedom-loving blood that is in us, and send our answer to the tyranny that clanks its chains upon the South," Wallace declared from the podium. "In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth, I draw a line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and I say, segregation now, segregation tomorrow and segregation forever."

George Wallace, democrat.

Your point being?

This one should be fun.

Transpartisan.

 

[poopie pants]

 

[Gouvernail]

Texas Gov: "JFK Wanted To Send Man To Moon Obama Wants To Send Man To Ladies Room."

lol.

Reminds me of the governor of Alabama.
"Let us rise to the call of freedom-loving blood that is in us, and send our answer to the tyranny that clanks its chains upon the South," Wallace declared from the podium. "In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth, I draw a line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and I say, segregation now, segregation tomorrow and segregation forever."

George Wallace, democrat.

Before LBJ pushed through the civil rights act and all the racists turned Republican

 

[Dog]

Texas Gov: "JFK Wanted To Send Man To Moon Obama Wants To Send Man To Ladies Room."

lol.

Reminds me of the governor of Alabama.
"Let us rise to the call of freedom-loving blood that is in us, and send our answer to the tyranny that clanks its chains upon the South," Wallace declared from the podium. "In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth, I draw a line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and I say, segregation now, segregation tomorrow and segregation forever."

George Wallace, democrat.

Before LBJ pushed through the civil rights act and all the racists turned Republican

Wow...All the racists are Republican?

A higher percentage of Republicans in congress voted for the civil rights act than Democrats..