The serious transgender bathroom issue discussion

Dog

Super Anarchist
37,940
442
I believe what LenP predicted will come true. ALL public facilities will become gender neutral and there will have to be private spaces for all to use for changing, showering, shitting, pissing, etc. Its the only way forward that is fair and equal for all.

However, the downside is that it will cost the taxpayers shitloads of money to change everything to accommodate the .03% of people that need accommodating. But oh well, fair is fair.

I also predict that this issue will likely cost most of the good will the LGBT community built up during their battle for gay marriage rights. In that case I think they were right and just to fight for that as them gaining those rights didn't cost anyone else their rights to marriage. Just as blacks gaining the right to ride at the front of the bus didn't cost whites their right to ride the bus. However, this issue is different. A long accepted tradition and social customs an expectation to privacy to shower and be naked only around your own gender (regardless if it was the law or not) is being taken away because a tiny majority of people want to push a social agenda on the rest of us and their reasonable accommodations were not seen to be good enough, even though schools bent over backwards to accommodate them.

And yes, sol - I know your retort is that the long accepted tradition and social custom of a white's expectation to not sit next to a nigra at the same lunch counter was taken away too. So boo fucking hoo. That you continue to say its the same thing doesn't make it so.

I'm thinking the LGB's are regretting adding the T's and Q's to the group about right now.......
I disagree, I think that ultimately it will be acknowledged that transgender people suffer from a mental disorder and that they are not in fact what they perceive themselves to be. I believe the ultimate solution to this problem will be in the form of treatment for the disorder not in pretending that the fiction caused by the dysphoria is reality. Gender dysphoria is a psychological disorder and needs to be resolved by the medical industry not the construction industry.

Although treating the perception rather than the reality would mean a lot of work for me.

 

Spatial Ed

Super Anarchist
39,527
113
I believe what LenP predicted will come true. ALL public facilities will become gender neutral and there will have to be private spaces for all to use for changing, showering, shitting, pissing, etc. Its the only way forward that is fair and equal for all.

However, the downside is that it will cost the taxpayers shitloads of money to change everything to accommodate the .03% of people that need accommodating. But oh well, fair is fair.

I also predict that this issue will likely cost most of the good will the LGBT community built up during their battle for gay marriage rights. In that case I think they were right and just to fight for that as them gaining those rights didn't cost anyone else their rights to marriage. Just as blacks gaining the right to ride at the front of the bus didn't cost whites their right to ride the bus. However, this issue is different. A long accepted tradition and social customs an expectation to privacy to shower and be naked only around your own gender (regardless if it was the law or not) is being taken away because a tiny majority of people want to push a social agenda on the rest of us and their reasonable accommodations were not seen to be good enough, even though schools bent over backwards to accommodate them.

And yes, sol - I know your retort is that the long accepted tradition and social custom of a white's expectation to not sit next to a nigra at the same lunch counter was taken away too. So boo fucking hoo. That you continue to say its the same thing doesn't make it so.

I'm thinking the LGB's are regretting adding the T's and Q's to the group about right now.......
I disagree, I think that ultimately it will be acknowledged that transgender people suffer from a mental disorder and that they are not in fact what they perceive themselves to be. I believe the ultimate solution to this problem will be in the form of treatment for the disorder not in pretending that the fiction caused by the dysphoria is reality. Gender dysphoria is a psychological disorder and needs to be resolved by the medical industry not the construction industry.
Although treating the perception rather than the reality would mean a lot of work for me.
Wouldn't that be like trying to treat left handed people as a disorder?
 
G

Guest

Guest
I believe what LenP predicted will come true. ALL public facilities will become gender neutral and there will have to be private spaces for all to use for changing, showering, shitting, pissing, etc. Its the only way forward that is fair and equal for all.

However, the downside is that it will cost the taxpayers shitloads of money to change everything to accommodate the .03% of people that need accommodating. But oh well, fair is fair.

I also predict that this issue will likely cost most of the good will the LGBT community built up during their battle for gay marriage rights. In that case I think they were right and just to fight for that as them gaining those rights didn't cost anyone else their rights to marriage. Just as blacks gaining the right to ride at the front of the bus didn't cost whites their right to ride the bus. However, this issue is different. A long accepted tradition and social customs an expectation to privacy to shower and be naked only around your own gender (regardless if it was the law or not) is being taken away because a tiny majority of people want to push a social agenda on the rest of us and their reasonable accommodations were not seen to be good enough, even though schools bent over backwards to accommodate them.

And yes, sol - I know your retort is that the long accepted tradition and social custom of a white's expectation to not sit next to a nigra at the same lunch counter was taken away too. So boo fucking hoo. That you continue to say its the same thing doesn't make it so.

I'm thinking the LGB's are regretting adding the T's and Q's to the group about right now.......
I disagree, I think that ultimately it will be acknowledged that transgender people suffer from a mental disorder and that they are not in fact what they perceive themselves to be. I believe the ultimate solution to this problem will be in the form of treatment for the disorder not in pretending that the fiction caused by the dysphoria is reality. Gender dysphoria is a psychological disorder and needs to be resolved by the medical industry not the construction industry.

Although treating the perception rather than the reality would mean a lot of work for me.

Won't happen. And while I agree with you clinically that it is a disorder or an abbynormal condition - not in a million years will the courts do that. Nor do I think they should. I don't think there is anything to be gained by stigmatizing them with that label. No, I think the courts will either say:

1) that the privacy rights of the majority need to be respected and that there are reasonable accommodations that can be made for the TGs without infringing on the privacy of others.

or

2) There can no longer be "separate but equal" bathroom facilities for the genders/sexes and that they must be gender neutral.

I honestly don't see any other path the court can realistically take.

 
Last edited:

slatfatf

Super Anarchist
8,679
1,049
Well, at least you got past the "special rights" bullshit. Thing to remember though is that, legally speaking, public facilities were gender neutral to start with. Until the Republicans started their recent nanny government drive, despite your expectations and as practiced by transgenders / transexuals for decades, people were (& in most places - still are) legally able to use the public facilities that suit them.

Soon you'll be able to concede that the people that actually blew this issue out of all proportion would be those that sought to take away people's rights through legislation. It'll take time but, then again, it did for those that blamed the "nigras" too. ;)
They were never gender neutral. There was a time when a biological male entering the women's room would have been charged with a number of things and would have been labeled a sex offender and had to register wherever they lived for the rest of their life. There was no need for a specific law for each location or facility, it would have been treated with the existing laws. It is silliness to say that a guy could walk into a girls shower any time over the last hundred years and nothing would have been done about it. Perhaps that is true where you live, but it certainly never was here in the US.

I believe what LenP predicted will come true. ALL public facilities will become gender neutral and there will have to be private spaces for all to use for changing, showering, shitting, pissing, etc. Its the only way forward that is fair and equal for all.

However, the downside is that it will cost the taxpayers shitloads of money to change everything to accommodate the .03% of people that need accommodating. But oh well, fair is fair.

I also predict that this issue will likely cost most of the good will the LGBT community built up during their battle for gay marriage rights. In that case I think they were right and just to fight for that as them gaining those rights didn't cost anyone else their rights to marriage. Just as blacks gaining the right to ride at the front of the bus didn't cost whites their right to ride the bus. However, this issue is different. A long accepted tradition and social customs an expectation to privacy to shower and be naked only around your own gender (regardless if it was the law or not) is being taken away because a tiny majority of people want to push a social agenda on the rest of us and their reasonable accommodations were not seen to be good enough, even though schools bent over backwards to accommodate them.

And yes, sol - I know your retort is that the long accepted tradition and social custom of a white's expectation to not sit next to a nigra at the same lunch counter was taken away too. So boo fucking hoo. That you continue to say its the same thing doesn't make it so.

I'm thinking the LGB's are regretting adding the T's and Q's to the group about right now.......
I disagree, I think that ultimately it will be acknowledged that transgender people suffer from a mental disorder and that they are not in fact what they perceive themselves to be. I believe the ultimate solution to this problem will be in the form of treatment for the disorder not in pretending that the fiction caused by the dysphoria is reality. Gender dysphoria is a psychological disorder and needs to be resolved by the medical industry not the construction industry.

Although treating the perception rather than the reality would mean a lot of work for me.

Won't happen. And while I agree with you clinically that it is a disorder or an abbynormal condition - not in a million years will the courts do that. Nor do I think they should. I don't think there is anything to be gained by stigmatizing them with that label. No, I think the courts will either say:

1) that the privacy rights of the majority need to be respected and that there are reasonable accommodations that can be made for the TGs without infringing on the privacy of others.

or

2) There can no longer be "separate but equal" bathroom facilities for the genders/sexes and that they must be gender neutral.

I honestly don't see any other path the court can realistically take.
Yep

 
G

Guest

Guest
Well, at least you got past the "special rights" bullshit. Thing to remember though is that, legally speaking, public facilities were gender neutral to start with. Until the Republicans started their recent nanny government drive, despite your expectations and as practiced by transgenders / transexuals for decades, people were (& in most places - still are) legally able to use the public facilities that suit them.

Soon you'll be able to concede that the people that actually blew this issue out of all proportion would be those that sought to take away people's rights through legislation. It'll take time but, then again, it did for those that blamed the "nigras" too. ;)
They were never gender neutral. There was a time when a biological male entering the women's room would have been charged with a number of things and would have been labeled a sex offender and had to register wherever they lived for the rest of their life. There was no need for a specific law for each location or facility, it would have been treated with the existing laws. It is silliness to say that a guy could walk into a girls shower any time over the last hundred years and nothing would have been done about it. Perhaps that is true where you live, but it certainly never was here in the US.

I tried to point that out to her and Sol the other day that there actually are laws that would prohibit a man, or at least put him in serious potential legal hot water, from going into a woman's shower room and getting naked. I've admitted there are no specific laws regulating bathroom or shower use by gender - the indecent exposure laws are usually what stopped that practice in the past. Those will definitely have to be revisited.

 

Spatial Ed

Super Anarchist
39,527
113
What law prior to the NC one, would a man be violating for entering a ladies room? Would every janitor be a felon?

 

Dog

Super Anarchist
37,940
442
I believe what LenP predicted will come true. ALL public facilities will become gender neutral and there will have to be private spaces for all to use for changing, showering, shitting, pissing, etc. Its the only way forward that is fair and equal for all.

However, the downside is that it will cost the taxpayers shitloads of money to change everything to accommodate the .03% of people that need accommodating. But oh well, fair is fair.

I also predict that this issue will likely cost most of the good will the LGBT community built up during their battle for gay marriage rights. In that case I think they were right and just to fight for that as them gaining those rights didn't cost anyone else their rights to marriage. Just as blacks gaining the right to ride at the front of the bus didn't cost whites their right to ride the bus. However, this issue is different. A long accepted tradition and social customs an expectation to privacy to shower and be naked only around your own gender (regardless if it was the law or not) is being taken away because a tiny majority of people want to push a social agenda on the rest of us and their reasonable accommodations were not seen to be good enough, even though schools bent over backwards to accommodate them.

And yes, sol - I know your retort is that the long accepted tradition and social custom of a white's expectation to not sit next to a nigra at the same lunch counter was taken away too. So boo fucking hoo. That you continue to say its the same thing doesn't make it so.

I'm thinking the LGB's are regretting adding the T's and Q's to the group about right now.......
I disagree, I think that ultimately it will be acknowledged that transgender people suffer from a mental disorder and that they are not in fact what they perceive themselves to be. I believe the ultimate solution to this problem will be in the form of treatment for the disorder not in pretending that the fiction caused by the dysphoria is reality. Gender dysphoria is a psychological disorder and needs to be resolved by the medical industry not the construction industry.
Although treating the perception rather than the reality would mean a lot of work for me.
Wouldn't that be like trying to treat left handed people as a disorder?
Do left handed people have a dysphoria? Do they perceive themselves to be right handed?

 

Dog

Super Anarchist
37,940
442
Well, at least you got past the "special rights" bullshit. Thing to remember though is that, legally speaking, public facilities were gender neutral to start with. Until the Republicans started their recent nanny government drive, despite your expectations and as practiced by transgenders / transexuals for decades, people were (& in most places - still are) legally able to use the public facilities that suit them.

Soon you'll be able to concede that the people that actually blew this issue out of all proportion would be those that sought to take away people's rights through legislation. It'll take time but, then again, it did for those that blamed the "nigras" too. ;)
They were never gender neutral. There was a time when a biological male entering the women's room would have been charged with a number of things and would have been labeled a sex offender and had to register wherever they lived for the rest of their life. There was no need for a specific law for each location or facility, it would have been treated with the existing laws. It is silliness to say that a guy could walk into a girls shower any time over the last hundred years and nothing would have been done about it. Perhaps that is true where you live, but it certainly never was here in the US.

I believe what LenP predicted will come true. ALL public facilities will become gender neutral and there will have to be private spaces for all to use for changing, showering, shitting, pissing, etc. Its the only way forward that is fair and equal for all.

However, the downside is that it will cost the taxpayers shitloads of money to change everything to accommodate the .03% of people that need accommodating. But oh well, fair is fair.

I also predict that this issue will likely cost most of the good will the LGBT community built up during their battle for gay marriage rights. In that case I think they were right and just to fight for that as them gaining those rights didn't cost anyone else their rights to marriage. Just as blacks gaining the right to ride at the front of the bus didn't cost whites their right to ride the bus. However, this issue is different. A long accepted tradition and social customs an expectation to privacy to shower and be naked only around your own gender (regardless if it was the law or not) is being taken away because a tiny majority of people want to push a social agenda on the rest of us and their reasonable accommodations were not seen to be good enough, even though schools bent over backwards to accommodate them.

And yes, sol - I know your retort is that the long accepted tradition and social custom of a white's expectation to not sit next to a nigra at the same lunch counter was taken away too. So boo fucking hoo. That you continue to say its the same thing doesn't make it so.

I'm thinking the LGB's are regretting adding the T's and Q's to the group about right now.......
I disagree, I think that ultimately it will be acknowledged that transgender people suffer from a mental disorder and that they are not in fact what they perceive themselves to be. I believe the ultimate solution to this problem will be in the form of treatment for the disorder not in pretending that the fiction caused by the dysphoria is reality. Gender dysphoria is a psychological disorder and needs to be resolved by the medical industry not the construction industry.

Although treating the perception rather than the reality would mean a lot of work for me.

Won't happen. And while I agree with you clinically that it is a disorder or an abbynormal condition - not in a million years will the courts do that. Nor do I think they should. I don't think there is anything to be gained by stigmatizing them with that label. No, I think the courts will either say:

1) that the privacy rights of the majority need to be respected and that there are reasonable accommodations that can be made for the TGs without infringing on the privacy of others.

or

2) There can no longer be "separate but equal" bathroom facilities for the genders/sexes and that they must be gender neutral.

I honestly don't see any other path the court can realistically take.
Yep
Buy Kohler.

 
G

Guest

Guest
What law prior to the NC one, would a man be violating for entering a ladies room? Would every janitor be a felon?

Did I say anything about just entering? Unless the janitor is going in there and getting naked among the girls while he mops the floor - probably not. But I doubt a make janitor is going to go in the ladies shower room while people are showering anyway. That's usually frowned on. If he goes in there when its empty, no issue. That's his job.

And if a man goes in and sits on the bench in the middle of the girls shower room and does nothing - I think he's going to get nailed with a voyeurism charge. If he gets naked to shower with them, then indecent exposure would likely have kicked in.

Any other obviously specious questions?

 

Spatial Ed

Super Anarchist
39,527
113
What law prior to the NC one, would a man be violating for entering a ladies room? Would every janitor be a felon?

Did I say anything about just entering? Unless the janitor is going in there and getting naked among the girls while he mops the floor - probably not. But I doubt a make janitor is going to go in the ladies shower room while people are showering anyway. That's usually frowned on. If he goes in there when its empty, no issue. That's his job.

And if a man goes in and sits on the bench in the middle of the girls shower room and does nothing - I think he's going to get nailed with a voyeurism charge. If he gets naked to shower with them, then indecent exposure would likely have kicked in.

Any other obviously specious questions?
OK Jeff. Now let me make one minor change to your scenario and see if this works for you.

Did I say anything about just entering? Unless the janitor is going in there and getting naked among the boys while he mops the floor - probably not. But I doubt a make janitor is going to go in the mens shower room while people are showering anyway. That's usually frowned on. If he goes in there when its empty, no issue. That's his job.

And if a man goes in and sits on the bench in the middle of the mens shower room and does nothing - I think he's going to get nailed with a voyeurism charge. If he gets naked to shower with them, then indecent exposure would likely have kicked in.

Any other obviously specious questions?

 

slatfatf

Super Anarchist
8,679
1,049
Well, at least you got past the "special rights" bullshit. Thing to remember though is that, legally speaking, public facilities were gender neutral to start with. Until the Republicans started their recent nanny government drive, despite your expectations and as practiced by transgenders / transexuals for decades, people were (& in most places - still are) legally able to use the public facilities that suit them.

Soon you'll be able to concede that the people that actually blew this issue out of all proportion would be those that sought to take away people's rights through legislation. It'll take time but, then again, it did for those that blamed the "nigras" too. ;)
They were never gender neutral. There was a time when a biological male entering the women's room would have been charged with a number of things and would have been labeled a sex offender and had to register wherever they lived for the rest of their life. There was no need for a specific law for each location or facility, it would have been treated with the existing laws. It is silliness to say that a guy could walk into a girls shower any time over the last hundred years and nothing would have been done about it. Perhaps that is true where you live, but it certainly never was here in the US.

I tried to point that out to her and Sol the other day that there actually are laws that would prohibit a man, or at least put him in serious potential legal hot water, from going into a woman's shower room and getting naked. I've admitted there are no specific laws regulating bathroom or shower use by gender - the indecent exposure laws are usually what stopped that practice in the past. Those will definitely have to be revisited.
Yeah, there are lots of laws like that, in which context is everything. If you are on a crowded subway and you make incidental contact with a woman nothing is going to happen, it is crowded and everybody is smooshed together, there is all sorts of incidental contact that is just part of riding the subway. That same contact in a park or a library with no crowds can be prosecuted, and it generally is when it happens. There are laws which would apply, prosecutors will find the ones that fit, even if it is just disturbing the peace. I certainly can't quote them all, they vary state by state, but I do think it is silly to think that a male could always walk into a girls shower and not earn a trip to jail.

 

slatfatf

Super Anarchist
8,679
1,049
We're gonna need to protect girls/women's facilities from lesbians. We wouldn't want lustly lasses perving on girls asses.
Not the same thing. We have a history of separating the sexes especially in places where nudity is involved, regardless of who they are attracted to. It is built into our culture, into most religions, and is part of our history. It seems revisionist to me to equate a biological male, who may or may not be attracted to women, with a lesbian in a common shower or locker room with biological women. I have no problem with lesbians in a women's locker room, and I don't think most women do, but a heterosexual male is a different story. Both the heterosexual male and the lesbian are attracted to women, it is not about their sexuality but about their sex (m/f). It has to do with cultural traditions and societal norms, rather than specifically sexuality. I do think the changes offers cover to males who specifically want to perv on girls, that is different than believing all hetero males are would be pervs or all lesbians are would be pervs given the opportunity. It just means we are expanding the opportunity for some hetero pervs to be pervs.

 

Spatial Ed

Super Anarchist
39,527
113
We're gonna need to protect girls/women's facilities from lesbians. We wouldn't want lustly lasses perving on girls asses.
Not the same thing. We have a history of separating the sexes especially in places where nudity is involved, regardless of who they are attracted to. It is built into our culture, into most religions, and is part of our history. It seems revisionist to me to equate a biological male, who may or may not be attracted to women, with a lesbian in a common shower or locker room with biological women. I have no problem with lesbians in a women's locker room, and I don't think most women do, but a heterosexual male is a different story. Both the heterosexual male and the lesbian are attracted to women, it is not about their sexuality but about their sex (m/f). It has to do with cultural traditions and societal norms, rather than specifically sexuality. I do think the changes offers cover to males who specifically want to perv on girls, that is different than believing all hetero males are would be pervs or all lesbians are would be pervs given the opportunity. It just means we are expanding the opportunity for some hetero pervs to be pervs.
Should we have separate facilities for homosexual males from heterosexual males. I mean, homos are attracted to other males, hetros too. All this worry about trannies molesting women and we forget the homo-elephant in the bathroom.

 

slatfatf

Super Anarchist
8,679
1,049
You are replying to a post where I specifically answer your question in the negative with an explanation of my reasoning. I hope you apply more reasoning skill when you are flying, or operating any type of equipment for that matter.

 
G

Guest

Guest
Should we have separate facilities for homosexual males from heterosexual males. I mean, homos are attracted to other males, hetros too. All this worry about trannies molesting women and we forget the homo-elephant in the bathroom.

Not a single person here has once mentioned (to my knowledge) anything about trannies molesting women or little girls. Why do you have to be such a specious, lying cunt all the time???

 


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