The serious transgender bathroom issue discussion

Snore

Super Anarchist
3,132
350
DTSP and on OPB
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Well done!

 

bgytr

Super Anarchist
5,071
676
Sure, OK.

but 14 pages of this crap is prudish.

Millions spent on a Senate court case on whether Lewinsky sucked Clinton's dick (for another 10 bucks I'll tell you she banged him stupid on the oval office desk) .

The point is that conservatives here are prudish and whilst this thread is 14 fucking pages long, a thread on Lewinsky/Clinton's fucking would be 1114 pages long.

Prudishfuckingness
And yet the outrage of grabbing them by the pussy remarks.

 

sail611

Member
380
75
So has anyone here thought about what it really means to be trans?  I hate to burst your bubble, but you don't just wake up one day and say "I think I feel like a woman today (if you are a man) so I am going to use the lady's room."  It doesn't work that way.  If it does, and that person goes into the room to leer at the cis females, then he is not trans, but a pervert, and we have laws against that sort of thing.

Actually, for the vast majority of the trans population, they have to endure a lot of counseling, because its really hard when your brain tells you one thing, and your anatomy another.  What many here seem to be forgetting, or simply don't understand is that trans people don't feel like the sex of their anatomy.  They feel what their brain tells them.  And this feeling doesn't hit them all at once.  Its something they have had to live with their entire lives, and its confusing as fuck, and many of them have serious depression issues until they get their stuff sorted out.  Usually through professional help.  So after two or three years of therapy, these individuals finally feel comfortable enough to identify as the gender their brain tells them they should be.  So at that point, while a trans individual may have a penis, that individual identifies, not feels, as feelings in the connotations of many seem to be temporary, like a female.  

And just like any cis (naturally born in both anatomy and identity) female probably does not want to go into the men's room for fear of assault.

So perhaps instead of freaking out the next time you see a male to female trans individual in the lady's room, remember that the individual in question is really just a female.  She just happens to have different plumbing than your wife or daughter.

So you could choose tolerance and acceptance, or go the neo-conservative evangelical route and do what Jesus would do....ridicule, defame, humiliate, and possibly assault that person.  Because that's what Jesus would do, right Christians?  (if you can't tell from the typing the complete contempt I have for these hate filled hypocritical evangelicals, Its yuuuuge)

I write the above because for a while, I was indifferent to the issues of trans individuals.  Largely because I knew no trans individuals.  Then a student joined my after school aeronautics program, who's brother was a female to male transgendered individual.  And while building model aircraft, I found out about the attempted suicides, and the counseling, and the fears, and basically everything this (trans) student and his family went through while trying to come to grips with this gender identity issue.  That kid started coming to club a few weeks later, as he knew that my room is a place where hate speech, oppression, violence, bigotry, racism etc are simply not tolerated nor allowed.  So I talked to this kid a lot, and found out a lot about his and what its like to be trans in America.  

Bottom line is that many Americans seem incapable of treating people who are not exactly like them with any sort of decency or compassion what so ever.  This current administration has capitalized on that quality and basically told people that it's okay to treat people who are different like shit (paraphrasing, but its what the people heard, whether purposefully or accidentally implied).

Look inside yourself and decide if you really want to be a hate filled individual.  If you call yourself a Christian, seriously ask yourself, what would Jesus do?  If you are not a Christian, then ask yourself "how will this enrich my life and the lives of those around me?"  I'll give you a hint, though the source may differ, the end result is that its always best to be good to one another.  Or at worst indifferent.

 Really, how much better would the world be if the worst of humanity were simply indifferent?

 

Sol Rosenberg

Girthy Member
95,168
12,441
Earth
So has anyone here thought about what it really means to be trans?  I hate to burst your bubble, but you don't just wake up one day and say "I think I feel like a woman today (if you are a man) so I am going to use the lady's room."  It doesn't work that way.  If it does, and that person goes into the room to leer at the cis females, then he is not trans, but a pervert, and we have laws against that sort of thing.

Actually, for the vast majority of the trans population, they have to endure a lot of counseling, because its really hard when your brain tells you one thing, and your anatomy another.  What many here seem to be forgetting, or simply don't understand is that trans people don't feel like the sex of their anatomy.  They feel what their brain tells them.  And this feeling doesn't hit them all at once.  Its something they have had to live with their entire lives, and its confusing as fuck, and many of them have serious depression issues until they get their stuff sorted out.  Usually through professional help.  So after two or three years of therapy, these individuals finally feel comfortable enough to identify as the gender their brain tells them they should be.  So at that point, while a trans individual may have a penis, that individual identifies, not feels, as feelings in the connotations of many seem to be temporary, like a female.  

And just like any cis (naturally born in both anatomy and identity) female probably does not want to go into the men's room for fear of assault.

So perhaps instead of freaking out the next time you see a male to female trans individual in the lady's room, remember that the individual in question is really just a female.  She just happens to have different plumbing than your wife or daughter.

So you could choose tolerance and acceptance, or go the neo-conservative evangelical route and do what Jesus would do....ridicule, defame, humiliate, and possibly assault that person.  Because that's what Jesus would do, right Christians?  (if you can't tell from the typing the complete contempt I have for these hate filled hypocritical evangelicals, Its yuuuuge)

I write the above because for a while, I was indifferent to the issues of trans individuals.  Largely because I knew no trans individuals.  Then a student joined my after school aeronautics program, who's brother was a female to male transgendered individual.  And while building model aircraft, I found out about the attempted suicides, and the counseling, and the fears, and basically everything this (trans) student and his family went through while trying to come to grips with this gender identity issue.  That kid started coming to club a few weeks later, as he knew that my room is a place where hate speech, oppression, violence, bigotry, racism etc are simply not tolerated nor allowed.  So I talked to this kid a lot, and found out a lot about his and what its like to be trans in America.  

Bottom line is that many Americans seem incapable of treating people who are not exactly like them with any sort of decency or compassion what so ever.  This current administration has capitalized on that quality and basically told people that it's okay to treat people who are different like shit (paraphrasing, but its what the people heard, whether purposefully or accidentally implied).

Look inside yourself and decide if you really want to be a hate filled individual.  If you call yourself a Christian, seriously ask yourself, what would Jesus do?  If you are not a Christian, then ask yourself "how will this enrich my life and the lives of those around me?"  I'll give you a hint, though the source may differ, the end result is that its always best to be good to one another.  Or at worst indifferent.

 Really, how much better would the world be if the worst of humanity were simply indifferent?
Thought about what it really means to be trans? On this forum?  You must be lost. 

If the trans folks want to know what it means to be trans, they should ask an old white male for the True Story. Same goes for the wimminfolk. Nobody knows women's issues like old white dudes  

 

A guy in the Chesapeake

Super Anarchist
23,965
1,167
Virginia
Sol & Sail - your perspective as it pertains to helping/protecting the identity confused is valid.  Do you think that that perspective puts the plight of the identity-issue kids above the majority of the other kids?  Do you think that there is a probability of misuse of dispensations afforded to identity issue kids by those who want to "prove a point"?   Do you think that the fact that the ability to apply situational discretion has been largely stripped from teachers and school administrators would permit appropriate situational application of prescribed dispensation? 

 

sail611

Member
380
75
I think the biggest problem is that we as a society consider individuals who are legitimately trans to have identity issues.  Yes, in the beginning, the identity thing is an issue for the individual.  The body is built one way, society is telling that person they should act as their body is, yet their brain is telling them another.  Its terribly conflicting and confusing for the individual.  Once that individual overcomes those initial issues, then it no longer is an issue.  But society still feels the need to make it one.

WRT to the rights of the majority of cis individuals, do any of the boys freak out when another man uses the men's room?  Do any of the cis girls freak out when another woman uses the lady's room?  What we need to wrap our minds around here is that trans individuals are not like Alex Jones, making shit up an playing a part.  We need to remember and accept that these individuals should not be thought of as people that made a choice to join another gender, but rather people born with the wrong plumbing for their gender.  I asked the trans student I worked with when he realized he was a boy instead of a girl and he told me "when I was three and my brother was born.  I asked my mom why he had a penis and I didn't..."

WRT situational discretion, I can't really comment as I haven't seen it be an issue.  The students in my building are actually really accepting of their peers, and for that I applaud them.  For a while, the few trans kids in the building were allowed to use a unisex bathroom, but eventually just started using the men's room.  Interestingly enough, we have no m-f trans population, only f-m.  So they use the men's room.  Nobody cares.  Well actually some do.  Wal Mart bathrooms are apparently bad for trans people.  Student from above went into the men's room at a Wal Mart (because he is a he...remember that) and had a bunch of dude's trying to check out his junk to see if he had the right plumbing.  Funny thing that, because they are the same people that don't want no perverts in their bathroom, yet have no problem staring at the genitalia of another person...interesting.

As for students trying to prove a point, none so far have tried it.  I think our adolescents are actually smart enough to realize that the gender thing is not taken lightly, and if you just go into the "other" bathroom to see what happens, you are in deep shit with the admins.  I would imagine that if a student tried that in my building and said they woke up feeling like they were of the opposite sex today, it wouldn't fly.  There would be the questions of how much counseling have you received, who have you talked to, what have you discussed with your parents/guardians, etc.

Now, could somebody abuse the bathroom thing?  I guess.  I mean if someone really wanted to, I guess a perv could go into a restroom of the opposite sex to creep on the occupants, but again, that is not a trans individual using the bathroom of their gender identity, that is a pervert being a pervert, and its illegal and there are consequences.  Being as not even Fox or Breitbart has reported an instance of it happening (and if it did happen, those two would jump all over to prove their stance) I would assume it has yet to happen.

If we want to, we can play the what if game about every single situation in life, all the time.  But for now, how about we have those difficult conversations with our kids, so that when they see a friend with two moms or two dads, or somebody a little different looking minding their own business in the bathroom (that's the key...minding their own business...I don't want my kids making any deal out of that, but if there is a legit pervert in there, not minding his/her own business, it should absolutely be reported), they know how to act with tolerance, instead of ignorance and ridicule.  

These things are not hard.  We simply need to realize that despite all of our physical differences, genetically we are all the same.  We are all human.  So why not treat each other as such?

 

Sol Rosenberg

Girthy Member
95,168
12,441
Earth
Sol & Sail - your perspective as it pertains to helping/protecting the identity confused is valid.  Do you think that that perspective puts the plight of the identity-issue kids above the majority of the other kids?  Do you think that there is a probability of misuse of dispensations afforded to identity issue kids by those who want to "prove a point"?   Do you think that the fact that the ability to apply situational discretion has been largely stripped from teachers and school administrators would permit appropriate situational application of prescribed dispensation? 
There have been transgender kids using bathrooms for as long as there have been bathrooms.  Transgender kids are not a liberal plot, and they are not new.  They've been using the can in which they feel the most comfortable the whole time.  It was never a problem, and people were treated equally (which is to say nobody checked their junk), until some group of scum had to try to make an issue out of it as a means to divide the masses.  We would not be having this conversation were it not for the need of some political group to find a new wedge issue once gay marriage was settled.  

Equality?  Bathroom equality is leaving people the hell alone to go about their business without government intrusion, like they always did.  Bathroom bills are another example of people using Big Government to solve problems we do not have.  

 

Rockdog

Super Anarchist
7,833
0
Illinois
I think the biggest problem is that we as a society consider individuals who are legitimately trans to have identity issues.  Yes, in the beginning, the identity thing is an issue for the individual.  The body is built one way, society is telling that person they should act as their body is, yet their brain is telling them another.  Its terribly conflicting and confusing for the individual.  Once that individual overcomes those initial issues, then it no longer is an issue.  But society still feels the need to make it one.

WRT to the rights of the majority of cis individuals, do any of the boys freak out when another man uses the men's room?  Do any of the cis girls freak out when another woman uses the lady's room?  What we need to wrap our minds around here is that trans individuals are not like Alex Jones, making shit up an playing a part.  We need to remember and accept that these individuals should not be thought of as people that made a choice to join another gender, but rather people born with the wrong plumbing for their gender.  I asked the trans student I worked with when he realized he was a boy instead of a girl and he told me "when I was three and my brother was born.  I asked my mom why he had a penis and I didn't..."

WRT situational discretion, I can't really comment as I haven't seen it be an issue.  The students in my building are actually really accepting of their peers, and for that I applaud them.  For a while, the few trans kids in the building were allowed to use a unisex bathroom, but eventually just started using the men's room.  Interestingly enough, we have no m-f trans population, only f-m.  So they use the men's room.  Nobody cares.  Well actually some do.  Wal Mart bathrooms are apparently bad for trans people.  Student from above went into the men's room at a Wal Mart (because he is a he...remember that) and had a bunch of dude's trying to check out his junk to see if he had the right plumbing.  Funny thing that, because they are the same people that don't want no perverts in their bathroom, yet have no problem staring at the genitalia of another person...interesting.

As for students trying to prove a point, none so far have tried it.  I think our adolescents are actually smart enough to realize that the gender thing is not taken lightly, and if you just go into the "other" bathroom to see what happens, you are in deep shit with the admins.  I would imagine that if a student tried that in my building and said they woke up feeling like they were of the opposite sex today, it wouldn't fly.  There would be the questions of how much counseling have you received, who have you talked to, what have you discussed with your parents/guardians, etc.

Now, could somebody abuse the bathroom thing?  I guess.  I mean if someone really wanted to, I guess a perv could go into a restroom of the opposite sex to creep on the occupants, but again, that is not a trans individual using the bathroom of their gender identity, that is a pervert being a pervert, and its illegal and there are consequences.  Being as not even Fox or Breitbart has reported an instance of it happening (and if it did happen, those two would jump all over to prove their stance) I would assume it has yet to happen.

If we want to, we can play the what if game about every single situation in life, all the time.  But for now, how about we have those difficult conversations with our kids, so that when they see a friend with two moms or two dads, or somebody a little different looking minding their own business in the bathroom (that's the key...minding their own business...I don't want my kids making any deal out of that, but if there is a legit pervert in there, not minding his/her own business, it should absolutely be reported), they know how to act with tolerance, instead of ignorance and ridicule.  

These things are not hard.  We simply need to realize that despite all of our physical differences, genetically we are all the same.  We are all human.  So why not treat each other as such?
humans in the us use gender assigned public restrooms.

 

Rockdog

Super Anarchist
7,833
0
Illinois
There have been transgender kids using bathrooms for as long as there have been bathrooms.  Transgender kids are not a liberal plot, and they are not new.  They've been using the can in which they feel the most comfortable the whole time.  It was never a problem, and people were treated equally (which is to say nobody checked their junk), until some group of scum had to try to make an issue out of it as a means to divide the masses.  We would not be having this conversation were it not for the need of some political group to find a new wedge issue once gay marriage was settled.  

Equality?  Bathroom equality is leaving people the hell alone to go about their business without government intrusion, like they always did.  Bathroom bills are another example of people using Big Government to solve problems we do not have.  
If it was never a problem this thread would not exist.

 

Mrleft8

Super Anarchist
27,330
4,021
Suwanee River
I find this whole subject/discussion to be absurd. Who cares what gender the person in the stall next to you at the fucking airport is? Women use the men's facilities at events all the time (Ever seen the lines at the women's room?) Nobody who wouldn't leer in any case is going to leer just because of a stupid law. How would they know if someone is trans or not unless they're a perv lecher who's peeking under the stall doors anyway?...

 

Bent Sailor

Super Anarchist
14,395
404
Lake Macquarie
Sol & Sail - your perspective as it pertains to helping/protecting the identity confused is valid.  Do you think that that perspective puts the plight of the identity-issue kids above the majority of the other kids?  Do you think that there is a probability of misuse of dispensations afforded to identity issue kids by those who want to "prove a point"?   Do you think that the fact that the ability to apply situational discretion has been largely stripped from teachers and school administrators would permit appropriate situational application of prescribed dispensation? 
You know something? When you start applying that logic to gun holders, I'll stop thinking it's a line of disingenuous deflection.

 

A guy in the Chesapeake

Super Anarchist
23,965
1,167
Virginia
You know something? When you start applying that logic to gun holders, I'll stop thinking it's a line of disingenuous deflection.
Those who want to infringe upon all gun owners regularly state their intent to use any "progress" on the infringement of 2A rights as merely a "starting point" to further infringement.  In response?  There are indeed people who take the exercise of their legal right to the absurd, well beyond what I would consider to be a reasonable exercise.   When we establish what's "legal" as the basis for expected behavior - my observation is that behaviors tend to degrade towards that lower boundary.    

I am wrestling with the question of dispensations provided to help kids who are dealing with identity issues against the potential downside of exposing our kids to the encroaching behavior in intimate situations (like locker rooms).   It's not the gender confused kids that I think will create issues - but, people completely outside that realm who will use the "legal" behavioral boundaries to prove a point, with complete disregard to how their behavior impacts others.  Considering this in conjunction with our increasing propensity to eliminate local discretion - (ie everybody's afraid of being sued if they don't abide by the letter of the law) - I think that the concern warrants a little thought.   

 

Raz'r

Super Anarchist
63,056
5,820
De Nile
Those who want to infringe upon all gun owners regularly state their intent to use any "progress" on the infringement of 2A rights as merely a "starting point" to further infringement.  In response?  There are indeed people who take the exercise of their legal right to the absurd, well beyond what I would consider to be a reasonable exercise.   When we establish what's "legal" as the basis for expected behavior - my observation is that behaviors tend to degrade towards that lower boundary.    

I am wrestling with the question of dispensations provided to help kids who are dealing with identity issues against the potential downside of exposing our kids to the encroaching behavior in intimate situations (like locker rooms).   It's not the gender confused kids that I think will create issues - but, people completely outside that realm who will use the "legal" behavioral boundaries to prove a point, with complete disregard to how their behavior impacts others.  Considering this in conjunction with our increasing propensity to eliminate local discretion - (ie everybody's afraid of being sued if they don't abide by the letter of the law) - I think that the concern warrants a little thought.   
That's a pretty tortured way to say "imagine!"

 

sail611

Member
380
75
So guy, those kids that may test the boundaries, how is that any different than a few nut jobs walking into a police station with their AR's strapped to their backs "because the 2A says we can" just to prove a point?  What happened to them?  http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/wayne/2017/02/06/dearborn-police-station-gun-rifle/97544076/  I'll save you the read though...they got arrested.  There were consequences for their actions.  And even other gun owners who advocate for open carry call these guys reckless.  And they were.  

So would we not expect the same for non-trans students who try to see what they can get away with?  I think its as simple as breaking rules has consequences.  Though if the offenders were affluent, white, christian males, maybe not.  They seem to be getting away with a lot lately.

 

A guy in the Chesapeake

Super Anarchist
23,965
1,167
Virginia
So guy, those kids that may test the boundaries, how is that any different than a few nut jobs walking into a police station with their AR's strapped to their backs "because the 2A says we can" just to prove a point?  What happened to them?  http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/wayne/2017/02/06/dearborn-police-station-gun-rifle/97544076/  I'll save you the read though...they got arrested.  There were consequences for their actions.  And even other gun owners who advocate for open carry call these guys reckless.  And they were.  

So would we not expect the same for non-trans students who try to see what they can get away with?  I think its as simple as breaking rules has consequences.  Though if the offenders were affluent, white, christian males, maybe not.  They seem to be getting away with a lot lately.
What rules would they be breaking?   Other than the privileged white christian males, for whom of course the rules don't apply.  
  

 




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