The serious transgender bathroom issue discussion

[sail611]

Hey Guy, good point.  I actually don't know of a school rule that states which bathroom a student has to use.  So I guess then, it becomes a moot point.  Also then, if that is a moot point, would not it also be moot to assume that students would try to see what they can get away with, because essentially there is nothing to get away with?  Which, if that is the case, pretty much makes this entire argument moot.

So lets just agree to be indifferent at worse, and not stare at people's plumbing in the bathroom.  Mind your own business, and expect others to do the same.

 

[A guy in the Chesapeake]

Hey Guy, good point.  I actually don't know of a school rule that states which bathroom a student has to use.  So I guess then, it becomes a moot point.  Also then, if that is a moot point, would not it also be moot to assume that students would try to see what they can get away with, because essentially there is nothing to get away with?  Which, if that is the case, pretty much makes this entire argument moot.

So lets just agree to be indifferent at worse, and not stare at people's plumbing in the bathroom.  Mind your own business, and expect others to do the same.

Did you misunderstand, or intentionally misconstrue the question? 

I don't accept your attempts to constrain the issue. Bathroom stalls?  No worries - easy enough to provide for privacy and modesty.  Communal Locker/Changing rooms are a different story, don't ya think?   Would your wife want to use a public changing room with a guy who's claiming a female gender identity?  Would you want your daughter to?  

You can try to discount the absurd, fringe behaviors that will result from adjusting the legal behavioral definitions, but, you can't say that such behaviors won't happen. 

Want to accommodate trans kids? Cool - do so without infringing on the other 99. whatever %.  Until the "sling 'em all together, it'll be OK" crowd can address how to do that, those advocates should expect opposition.   

 

[Raz'r]

Would your wife want to use a public changing room with a guy who's claiming a female gender identity?  Would you want your daughter to?  

You can try to discount the absurd, fringe behaviors that will result from adjusting the legal behavioral definitions, but, you can't say that such behaviors won't happen. 

Imagine!  Just Imagine!

if we start writing laws based on hysteric imagination, where do we stop?

I mean, imagine a old white guy might perv on the young girl at the checkout line. Hey, it might happen!

We should make all young girls dress in burkas, just in case.

You wouldn't want your daughter perved on, would you?

 

[sail611]

Guy, you perhaps unintentionally pointed out the whole issue with the issue.  You are thinking of trans individuals as people of one gender claiming to be another gender.  In reality trans individuals are not claiming to be another gender.  They ARE a different gender.  So if my wife was in a changing room with a person who was a m-f trans, it would be the same as if she was in the room with a woman, because she IS in the room with another WOMAN.

Now, as I have said before, if someone is using the trans thing to creep on other people, that is a criminal offense and should be treated as such.

Serious question...who here has significant experience with a member of the trans community?  I ask because I see a lot of stipulation about things members of that community might do, but based on what I have seen, are y'all basing those ideas on things you have personally experienced, or things that you could are personally capable of doing, given the opportunity?

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

Did you misunderstand, or intentionally misconstrue the question? 

I don't accept your attempts to constrain the issue. Bathroom stalls?  No worries - easy enough to provide for privacy and modesty.  Communal Locker/Changing rooms are a different story, don't ya think?   Would your wife want to use a public changing room with a guy who's claiming a female gender identity?  Would you want your daughter to?  

You can try to discount the absurd, fringe behaviors that will result from adjusting the legal behavioral definitions, but, you can't say that such behaviors won't happen. 

Want to accommodate trans kids? Cool - do so without infringing on the other 99. whatever %.  Until the "sling 'em all together, it'll be OK" crowd can address how to do that, those advocates should expect opposition.   

Why have we not heard about problems in communal locker rooms before?  Transgender people are not a new phenomenon. I do not recall them needing or requesting accommodation before.  

 

[A guy in the Chesapeake]

Guy, you perhaps unintentionally pointed out the whole issue with the issue.  You are thinking of trans individuals as people of one gender claiming to be another gender.  In reality trans individuals are not claiming to be another gender.  They ARE a different gender.  So if my wife was in a changing room with a person who was a m-f trans, it would be the same as if she was in the room with a woman, because she IS in the room with another WOMAN.

Now, as I have said before, if someone is using the trans thing to creep on other people, that is a criminal offense and should be treated as such.

Serious question...who here has significant experience with a member of the trans community?  I ask because I see a lot of stipulation about things members of that community might do, but based on what I have seen, are y'all basing those ideas on things you have personally experienced, or things that you could are personally capable of doing, given the opportunity?

How do you define that in statute?  Perhaps your explanation can alleviate my concerns. 

 

[A guy in the Chesapeake]

Why have we not heard about problems in communal locker rooms before?  Transgender people are not a new phenomenon. I do not recall them needing or requesting accommodation before.  

if no accommodation has been requested before, then why now?  

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

if no accommodation has been requested before, then why now?  

Because now there are efforts to constrain what had to relatively recent times been their choice.  Asking to be left alone as they always had been is not asking for accommodation.  Telling the government to stay out of your life as it always had, when it recently started making decisions for you, is not asking for accommodation.  It is telling the government to back off.  

This is yet another case of a solution in search of a problem, being used to divide people.  

 

[sail611]

If an individual intent on violating the privacy of another individual wakes up one day and says "i am going to claim I am a member of the opposite sex just so I can use that restroom" and then stare at the genitalia of the users of that restroom, that is a problem and should be addressed as such.

As to accommodation and why now, probably because some insecure paranoid ass evangelical conservatives saw a trans person in a bathroom and freaked out about it, causing a new wave of discrimination against these people, and they just want to be left alone to do their business.  Or maybe because after the most recent election those who want to discriminate, but have been silenced by societal pressures to not discriminate, suddenly feel empowered to be discriminatory.

What I really want to know is why conservatives have a problem with women using the women's room, even though those women may have been born with male genitalia?

 

[A guy in the Chesapeake]

Because now there are efforts to constrain what had to relatively recent times been their choice.  Asking to be left alone as they always had been is not asking for accommodation.  Telling the government to stay out of your life as it always had, when it recently started making decisions for you, is not asking for accommodation.  It is telling the government to back off.  

This is yet another case of a solution in search of a problem, being used to divide people.  

IIRC, and will be happy to be corrected - the original case came about because a trans-kid in NC's parents sued a school board because their son who wanted to be a daughter wasn't permitted into the girl's locker room.   The "efforts to constrain", IIRC, were in response to that incident.   "Live and let live" or "make everyone else around me accommodate how I want reality defined"?     AFAIC, that seems to be the operative question. 

 

[A guy in the Chesapeake]

If an individual intent on violating the privacy of another individual wakes up one day and says "i am going to claim I am a member of the opposite sex just so I can use that restroom" and then stare at the genitalia of the users of that restroom, that is a problem and should be addressed as such.

As to accommodation and why now, probably because some insecure paranoid ass evangelical conservatives saw a trans person in a bathroom and freaked out about it, causing a new wave of discrimination against these people, and they just want to be left alone to do their business.  Or maybe because after the most recent election those who want to discriminate, but have been silenced by societal pressures to not discriminate, suddenly feel empowered to be discriminatory.

What I really want to know is why conservatives have a problem with women using the women's room, even though those women may have been born with male genitalia?

You're intentionally misconstruing the issue. girls in the girls locker room are fine - but, a person with a penis isn't a girl, as much as some may want to change that physiological fact.  Some things just are - as much as some may wish it were different.  

 

 

[sail611]

You're intentionally misconstruing the issue. girls in the girls locker room are fine - but, a person with a penis isn't a girl, as much as some may want to change that physiological fact.  Some things just are - as much as some may wish it were different.  

 

And that is factual how?  What is the scientific basis for that statement?  Are you an expert in brain formation with respect to gender identity?  Do you deny that the brain is what defines the self?

Your explanation is simple, and people like simple, but in being so simple, it  dismisses a serious aspect of being human, to the point of being dangerous if enough people accept that simplistic view of what it is to be a person.

Seriously, how many trans people do you know?

 

[A guy in the Chesapeake]

And that is factual how?  What is the scientific basis for that statement?  Are you an expert in brain formation with respect to gender identity?  Do you deny that the brain is what defines the self?

Your explanation is simple, and people like simple, but in being so simple, it  dismisses a serious aspect of being human, to the point of being dangerous if enough people accept that simplistic view of what it is to be a person.

Seriously, how many trans people do you know?

I actually know several - and every one of 'em (adults) is someone with whom professional interaction is difficult because other aspects of their behavior are distracting and require constant focus to avoid saying or doing anything that might have even the slightest potential to cause offense. 

I don't intend to dismiss an aspect of being human - but, some things simply are:  A kid born without legs isn't going to be able to compete on the cross country team.  Is it the fault of the athletic department that he can't?  Should they require the cross country team to compete in wheelchairs so that the kid born without legs doesn't feel like he's missing out on something?  Should we have to pass a law saying that you have to have legs to be on the cross country team because the parents of that kid sue to get their kid on the cross country team? That kid IS missing out - and nothing that anyone else does is going to change that.    

You're born how you're born - and if your brain can't process or accept that, than is it your brain or your plumbing that's the problem? 

 

[sail611]

I am sorry, but that is a false equivalence.  A child being born without legs is not the same as child being born without a penis, but with the brain of a man.  Or vice versa.  

I would suggest a 100 level philosophy course to engage in some discussion on the definition of self and what it is.  

I will also offer up those individuals that are born XXY wrt their 23rd chromosome set (usually a pair, but triplet in this case).  Generally they have female facial features, though may look a little more masculine than other females, have breasts, and sometimes are born with a penis.  Almost always their brains tell them they are female.  Yet by your logic, because they were born with a penis they are male?  

Also, why do you feel it so hard to interact with trans people?  Is it because YOU think they should be something other than they actually are?  Could it be that YOU (and not just you personally, but all the members of society who think as you do, that people are SUPPOSED to be something other than what they actually are) are the problem?  

I know several trans people and I have found the best way to treat them is to treat them how they want to be treated.  At first, it was a bit awkward for me, as I had to get over the social construct that the student I was talking to last year as a girl, is now a guy.  But that was MY hang up.  Once I got over that, it was no more difficult to call him Mr. Smith as it was Miss. Smith (name changed because the person is still a minor) and treat him just like I would any other male student.

And guy, I am not digging on you or taking shots at you here, but rather maybe foster some personal reflection on your part as to the basis of your belief system, and if possibly accepting other beliefs may make your life better or easier.  That's all.  

 

[sail611]

Or how about this.  Lets just ignore the labels.  Lesbian, Gay, Bi-Sexual, Transgender, Queer, Straight, White, Black, Hispanic, Asian, etc.....Guess what.  It doesn't matter.  Those are labels used to divide us.  We are ALL people.  Lets just treat everyone like people.  Lets start there.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

http://media.ca7.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/rssExec.pl?Submit=Display&Path=Y2017/D05-30/C:16-3522:J:Williams:aut:T:fnOp:N:1971382:S:0

What the record demonstrates here is that the School District’s privacy argument is based upon sheer conjecture and abstraction. For nearly six months, Ash used the boys’ bath‐ room while at school and school‐sponsored events without incident or complaint from another student. In fact, it was only when a teacher witnessed Ash washing his hands in the restroom that his bathroom usage once more became an issue in the School District’s eyes. And while at oral argument, the School District asserted that it had received just one complaint from a parent, this is insufficient to support its position that its policy is required to protect the privacy rights of each and every student.

 

[Bent Sailor]

Pot meet Kettle.

Weiner wasn't manager of Hillary's campaign. It's bad when even the attempts to shout "Democrats are worse!" end up proving Republicans are.  

 

[Mrleft8]

Or how about this.  Lets just ignore the labels.  Lesbian, Gay, Bi-Sexual, Transgender, Queer, Straight, White, Black, Hispanic, Asian, etc.....Guess what.  It doesn't matter.  Those are labels used to divide us.  We are ALL people.  Lets just treat everyone like people.  Lets start there.

I agree. And while we're at it let's just make all restrooms available to everyone, regardless of sex, color, or political persuasion.

 Good god....... Imagine the lines at the republican restroom if there were only 5 stalls, and the democrats had 3.....

 

[Gouvernail]

I actually know several - and every one of 'em (adults) is someone with whom professional interaction is difficult because other aspects of their behavior are distracting and require constant focus to avoid saying or doing anything that might have even the slightest potential to cause offense. 

I don't intend to dismiss an aspect of being human - but, some things simply are:  A kid born without legs isn't going to be able to compete on the cross country team.  Is it the fault of the athletic department that he can't?  Should they require the cross country team to compete in wheelchairs so that the kid born without legs doesn't feel like he's missing out on something?  Should we have to pass a law saying that you have to have legs to be on the cross country team because the parents of that kid sue to get their kid on the cross country team? That kid IS missing out - and nothing that anyone else does is going to change that.    

You're born how you're born - and if your brain can't process or accept that, than is it your brain or your plumbing that's the problem? 

really?? However you are born is your lot in life??

that's a mighty broad and oppressive  brush. 

i prefer allowing poor folks to bust their way out.

If a man wants to make a girl of himself, who am I or the government to stand in his way?? 

 

[FillYourBoots]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5000666/Transgender-woman-guilty-sexually-assaulting-girl-10.html