The throne of England

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

Interested to see how you get on with it.

First steps...baby steps, like baby poops

Interested to see how you get on with it.

Appreciate your advice, @DDW.

So, naturally, my new install of the Lavac requires modifying the mounting shelf that the old much-loathed Jabsco was bolted on to.

The new install requires the toilet bowl to be installed several inches more forward (toward edge of shelf, I.e., inboard ) in order to fit the pump behind the toilet. (See first pic).

Hoses will be routed basically as in my kindergarten CAD drawing (next pic), except that pump will be mounted behind and not beside (to right of) toilet. This was my first rough in of the toilet sketch. Red blob is the pump. Blue dot represents hole that 1 1/2” hose passes through into cabinetry, blue circle with line through it represents 1 1/2” ball valve/waste out.

My only question (I think...) has to do with the height of the pump. The install manual says, “Establish a position for the pump where the pump inlet is no lower than the bowl top.” I’m not 100% sure my pump is high enough. The bottom/inlet side of the the pump body is right at the top of bowl (and can’t easily be moved higher), while the inlet hose connection/barb fitting is *just below* the top of the bowl.

I know the the toilet works on a vacuum, I.e., in a different way from a basic Jabsco (say), so pump location/orientation is key, but I’m hoping in my case that it’s sufficiently high enough relative to bowl. (That pump and its hose run is pretty bulky in the head of a 33’er...I’m always looking for creative ways to justify to my wife the need to upsize to a 40’er )

 

[Ajax]

My Lavac installation allowed me to totally hide my pump in a wet locker behind the toilet. You have to open the locker to operate the pump but the overall visual experience when you're in the head is less "industrial."

Rather than the Shields sanitation hose that is so popular, I used Raritan because it offers far more flexibility with only a slightly shorter lifespan. This allows for more installation options.
Raritan sanitation hose

Have you considered mounting the pump on or inside the pedestal that the throne sits on?
Another option might be to mount it to the bulkhead where the current piston pump is.

The Lavac is great because you can rotate the top cover of the pump to allow any orientation of pump handle and hose. They do not have to be aligned. Also, there is a conversion kit that allows you to convert the pump from "bulkhead mount" to "under deck." This allows you to hide the pump and just cut a slot for the handle.

Henderson rocker arm kit

With this kit, you could hide the pump itself on the backside of that bulkhead where you intend to mount it and just cut a discrete slot for the operating handle. You'd punch a hole down low for the discharge hose which would pass through, then up to the bottom of the pump.

Use one of the existing holes from the old Jabsco installation to run the seawater supply hose to the back of the Lavac. Cover the other old hole with a nice, teak bung or something.

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

My Lavac installation allowed me to totally hide my pump in a wet locker behind the toilet. You have to open the locker to operate the pump but the overall visual experience when you're in the head is less "industrial."

Rather than the Shields sanitation hose that is so popular, I used Raritan because it offers far more flexibility with only a slightly shorter lifespan. This allows for more installation options.
Raritan sanitation hose

Have you considered mounting the pump on or inside the pedestal that the throne sits on?
Another option might be to mount it to the bulkhead where the current piston pump is.

The Lavac is great because you can rotate the top cover of the pump to allow any orientation of pump handle and hose. They do not have to be aligned. Also, there is a conversion kit that allows you to convert the pump from "bulkhead mount" to "under deck." This allows you to hide the pump and just cut a slot for the handle.

Henderson rocker arm kit

With this kit, you could hide the pump itself on the backside of that bulkhead where you intend to mount it and just cut a discrete slot for the operating handle. You'd punch a hole down low for the discharge hose which would pass through, then up to the bottom of the pump.

Use one of the existing holes from the old Jabsco installation to run the seawater supply hose to the back of the Lavac. Cover the other old hole with a nice, teak bung or something.

Thanks for this - in fact, I did originally...months and several projects ago...consider mounting it that way (through-bulkhead style pump), then abandoned the idea based on someone’s (good) suggestion about access to pump for easy serviceability in future. Which is most definitely an important consideration. But so is a clean look of the installation (vs. an industrial look).

I have to do some carpentry mods to make it all fit either way, so it seems like I need to investigate this through-bulkhead option a bit further. Do mods such that it’s easy to access pump - think it might possibly fit in cabinet above sink in pic. Just need to check depth of pump there since that cabinet is full of bulky hoses. I wanna install this toilet and not touch it again until after a lap around Erase the Jabsco from my memory...

(The problem of doing so many projects, each at a different stage of completion, quasi-simultaneously, is that you sometimes don’t/can’t devote enough time to think things through fully. Classic example is this toilet install - limited time after work to figure it out, source and get materials, let alone actually do the work - and I just want it done...and rushing is never a good thing! This winter, still got a new toilet to figure out, drogue chainplates to install, triple rope clutch and winch install for some lines running aft, and solar...can I squeeze in a day tank/new Racor as well? Unlikely... I also wanna go sailing this winter with the new storm staysail and trysail set up...)

 

[longy]

Wherever you mount the pump - make sure you can fit a large container under it, big enuff to contain internal volume of pump & any hose uphill of it.
It's a shitty experience if you don't.

 

[DDW]

I think the pump is high enough. It is about the same as my forward head which seems to work well. You will have a bit less water in the bowl from drain back, but that isn't such a bad thing. My aft head has the pump mounted higher, the bowl ends up full enough that in sporty weather I raise the lid and pump it out again between uses.

I'd still not mount it behind the cabinet, especially in that constrained space, you may regret that someday. I mounted my aft pump through the bulkhead, but have compete access to it in the cockpit locker. Longy makes a good point about wanting to get a bucket under it, should clearing ever be necessary. I've never had to do that, but the contents in that event are the sort of thing you'd like to catch. There is actually very little volume in the pump, but might be a lot uphill of it depending on the discharge hose length and route. In theory that is held back by the duck bill, but clearing a jam might be unpredictable.

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

I think the pump is high enough. It is about the same as my forward head which seems to work well. You will have a bit less water in the bowl from drain back, but that isn't such a bad thing. My aft head has the pump mounted higher, the bowl ends up full enough that in sporty weather I raise the lid and pump it out again between uses.

I'd still not mount it behind the cabinet, especially in that constrained space, you may regret that someday. I mounted my aft pump through the bulkhead, but have compete access to it in the cockpit locker. Longy makes a good point about wanting to get a bucket under it, should clearing ever be necessary. I've never had to do that, but the contents in that event are the sort of thing you'd like to catch. There is actually very little volume in the pump, but might be a lot uphill of it depending on the discharge hose length and route. In theory that is held back by the duck bill, but clearing a jam might be unpredictable.

I’d been all set, totally focused, to install the pump one way —behind the toilet— in my haste to get through this relatively unpleasant project...combined with thinking this through in hurried, limited time after work, in fading light when tired —totally overlooked a better way to do it. Which @Ajax (and likely you earlier) suggested above. One of those weird situations where I think I’d gone into this project expecting it to be very “complicated”/difficult/a pain, so I settled on the hardest approach, overlooking an easier way to do it!

And the wisdom of mounting the pump somewhere else is reinforced by @longy ’s note above about mounting that pump where I’d be able to catch the contents of ever needed to open it, the clear a jam! Ugh! Had thought of that.

So -this seems to be the best place to mount the pump - I’ll exchange my surface mount pump for a through-bulkhead style one. With any luck I’ll have it all done by the end of the weekend.

BTW, with the bulkhead mount pump - roughly how big of a hole do you cut for the handle side of the pump? They provide a large trim ring/shroud piece (as in my pic below, from Lavac dealer), which makes it look like a large hole. Presumably, to get access inside the pump (to clear it), this trim ring/shroud assembly would be unscrewed, giving full access? In my case I can make the carpentry such that it (cabinet face piece) could be removed; but in the other pic (from Lavac), the cabinet can’t be removed -so, presumably there is access to pump’s insides by removing trim ring/shroud?

(Pic just shows head layout with cabinetry in place; hose runs/and pump location will be different from this...this was the original plan)

 

[Ajax]

I’ll exchange my surface mount pump for a through-bulkhead style one.

If you can exchange for no cost, fine. If it'll cost you money, buy the conversion kit. It's cheaper.

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

If you can exchange for no cost, fine. If it'll cost you money, buy the conversion kit. It's cheaper.

Here are the gory details behind that (the conversion kit, which I looked into the other day, after you mentioned it above). Key in this case is the Canada factor.

Available at Defender (per your link above). Plus shipping to Canada and time delay. So-called “international shipping” means very expensive shipping from the US, even though I’m just above thr border. Called a local retailer. “No, it’s not available anymore from Whale”. WTF, Defender has it, in stock. Called another retailer - “no, it’s too hard to obtain; can’t get it.” WTF? Called the large chandlery Fisheries Supply in Seattle, just south of me. “Special order unless it comes with our regular Whale order in a few weeks. In which case, $50 in special extra charges” plus the regular shipping (“international shipping”) to me.

So - supply chains are stupidly complicated and expensive sometimes to Canada. Seems like I can get the through-bulkhead pump (and shroud/trim ring kit) for a bit extra from the Lavac dudes. Ah, the joys of marine plumbing and sourcing stuff from Canada

 

[Kris Cringle]

We just increased the electrical entrance on a property to 400 amp.

No 400 amp meter boxes with the code required disconnect. In fact, few to no meter boxes(any size) , and no future delivery known.

They did find a 400 amp meter box. They just had to split out of meter box to 2 , 200 amp disconnects - 3 boxes total- to make the switch, or wait for an unknown future delivery. I ok’d the Rube Goldberg solution.

Stuff is hard to find.

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

We just increased the electrical entrance on a property to 400 amp.

No 400 amp meter boxes with the code required disconnect. In fact, few to no meter boxes(any size) , and no future delivery known.

They did find a 400 amp meter box. They just had to split out of meter box to 2 , 200 amp disconnects - 3 boxes total- to make the switch, or wait for an unknown future delivery. I ok’d the Rube Goldberg solution.

Stuff is hard to find.

I’m running a project, a whole building electrical reno and service upgrade, 800A to 1600A 3ph, and we started sourcing gear a loooong time ago,.......

 

[Prairie Boater]

Jud, we have a Lavac. Unfortunately I don't have quick access to photos or the boat but your pump can be quite removed from the bowl. Our run is probably at least five feet. We have a macerator pump in line with the manual Henderson? which is through-bulkhead mounted and is actuated from outside the head. It is configured to also pump overboard or dump the holding tank where legal.

 

[DDW]

I don't think you want to do that. I wouldn't. The bulkhead mount turns the pump around, so that the lid (for clearing) is facing away from the bulkhead, toward the hull in your case. The plastic elbow rocker is replaced by a straight one which allows the lever to poke through the trim bezel. That would make the lid and clearing any blockage nearly impossible, or at the very least extremely messy, mounting where you have indicated. Removing the trim bezel gives you access to basically nothing.

That location also puts the pump too high and will make pumping it harder. The screen shot picture also has that problem, in my experience. It'll work, but pumping will take more effort and the bowl will have more water in it when you are done.

It isn't clear to me where the pump discharge hose has to go in your installation.

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

I don't think you want to do that. I wouldn't. The bulkhead mount turns the pump around, so that the lid (for clearing) is facing away from the bulkhead, toward the hull in your case. The plastic elbow rocker is replaced by a straight one which allows the lever to poke through the trim bezel. That would make the lid and clearing any blockage nearly impossible, or at the very least extremely messy, mounting where you have indicated. Removing the trim bezel gives you access to basically nothing.

That location also puts the pump too high and will make pumping it harder. The screen shot picture also has that problem, in my experience. It'll work, but pumping will take more effort and the bowl will have more water in it when you are done.

It isn't clear to me where the pump discharge hose has to go in your installation.

Damn -thanks, DDW! Glad I asked your advice on this. I would’ve thought the through-bulkhead pump would’ve given access through the “front” of the pump, I.e., not facing the hull, in my case. Definitely not a good plan.

So, does this mean that —if I was to mount a pump in that cabinet to the upper right of the bowl, where the hoses run (and not behind/beside the toilet bowl as originally planned), which may or may not be a good idea— the Henderson adaptor kit that Ajax mentioned above (this) might be the way to go? More or less converts the T/A surface-mount pump I have to “front action”, allowing the pump to operate through a bulkhead (with access port *not* facing the hull, I.e., inaccessible)?

I’d mount the pump not much higher than the counter where the sink is shown (I.e., not much higher than if I mounted it directly behind the toilet bowl - which creates its own clearance issues with the bowl, requiring me to build the shelf the bowl is mounted on 3+“ wider, so that that toilet bowl lid could be opened enough (and so that it wouldn’t crash into the pump).

Marine plumbing...nothing is “easy”

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

If you can exchange for no cost, fine. If it'll cost you money, buy the conversion kit. It's cheaper.

Ajax - to convert the T/A (top action) pump to an U/D (up/down through-bulkhead mounted style pump), does this require another part (MH 9905) to allow the pump to be mounted/operated through a bulkhead? Appears as such from the drawing in the Defender listing for the conversion kit, but maybe I’m mistaken. Maybe it’s just referring to a part on an existing Whale pump? But I don’t think so...seems like this is needed.

Have you used one of these pump conversion kits? Curious how you did it, if so.

 

[Ajax]

I bought the Defender kit and it contained everything I needed.

 

[Finknottle]

Damn -thanks, DDW! Glad I asked your advice on this. I would’ve thought the through-bulkhead pump would’ve given access through the “front” of the pump, I.e., not facing the hull, in my case. Definitely not a good plan....



Marine plumbing...nothing is “easy”

Here is a photo of a popular 32 footer from back in the day, with original bulkhead mount and Lavac:

I would think you have enough room to use a similar spot.

The clearance behind the pump is not great maybe a few inches, but it is enough to remove the inspection plate if needed. The Mk 5 will not clog in normal service, though that may not include 13 year old girls on the crew list.

In practice, to carry out maintenance it is easier to remove the pump totally(the four bolts to the front)and take it out via the removable storage unit above. Again you should have room to do a similar thing it it appeals.

 

[DDW]

That just converts it to the thru-bulkhead configuration. Looks like they are making the arm out of zinc or aluminum now? Mine is glass filled plastic.

Anyway, the mounting feet stay the same, it always mounts to a surface that faces away from the access port. There are two available rocker arms: one is bent 90 deg and puts the handle socket to the side between the mounting feet, for 'surface mount'. The other (the one in the diagram) puts the handle socket straight out the back (and the back now becomes the front) for 'thru-bulkhead mount'. In either case the access/clearing port faces away from the mounting surface.

If you are set on mounting it there, and that panel was removable, and there was enough freedom in the plumbing so you could twist it around towards you after removing the panel, then maybe. As I said, I don't remember ever having to open it - I have a vague memory of once but I'm not sure - anyway very rarely.

In your original pictures, it looked like there was more space behind the toilet to the left where the hoses come through? Again routing the hoses dictates a lot of what is possible.

 

[DDW]

My aft head has the bulkhead mount with the pump positioned on toilet bowl centerline and just high enough the lid clears it. I was absolutely sure I'd need a storage clip for the handle, which would have to be removed or it would stab you in the back. Actually, it stays in place and is never an issue sometimes guests and questioned it but again find it isn't an issue. You "lean into the job" more than you think.

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

That just converts it to the thru-bulkhead configuration. Looks like they are making the arm out of zinc or aluminum now? Mine is glass filled plastic.

Anyway, the mounting feet stay the same, it always mounts to a surface that faces away from the access port. There are two available rocker arms: one is bent 90 deg and puts the handle socket to the side between the mounting feet, for 'surface mount'. The other (the one in the diagram) puts the handle socket straight out the back (and the back now becomes the front) for 'thru-bulkhead mount'. In either case the access/clearing port faces away from the mounting surface.

If you are set on mounting it there, and that panel was removable, and there was enough freedom in the plumbing so you could twist it around towards you after removing the panel, then maybe. As I said, I don't remember ever having to open it - I have a vague memory of once but I'm not sure - anyway very rarely.

In your original pictures, it looked like there was more space behind the toilet to the left where the hoses come through? Again routing the hoses dictates a lot of what is possible.

Thanks a lot for this - I was under the impression that the conversion kit that Ajax linked to allowed the pump to be mounted with the clearing/access port in the front still. Even if rarely accessed, seems important to have that accessible...wouldn’t ever want to have to deal with if the port was buried...

Re: the original pic I posted, indeed there is room to the left of the (old) toilet - the challenge is that if new pump is mounted there, the pump outlet hose would have to run along/inside that dark space below the cabinet (a shelf space for small items). So, would seem better to mount it to the right of the toilet. Either way, a hose (outlet of pump) is fairly prominent/visible, running across my fine teak cabinetry/moulding . Either with a hard 90 out of the pump, then hose, or orient the pump outlet to 45* off vertical and have a straight run of hose out. (Both drawn in pic.). Can’t mount pump any lower b/c bottom of pump must not be lower than top of bowl to function properly, says the manual.

Ok, I don’t care about the teak trim *that* much, but I would like to make the install as clean as possible, without hoses running over trim, etc. Seems like I may need to compromise somewhere...where, is the question.

Time to go back to boat and play around with mounting locations, since it seems like the through-bulkhead-no-access-to-port-option isn’t a good one on my head (port would basically be inaccessible without removing pump entirely).

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

see

Thanks a lot for this - I was under the impression that the conversion kit that Ajax linked to allowed the pump to be mounted with the clearing/access port in the front still. Even if rarely accessed, seems important to have that accessible...wouldn’t ever want to have to deal with if the port was buried...

Re: the original pic I posted, indeed there is room to the left of the (old) toilet - the challenge is that if new pump is mounted there, the pump outlet hose would have to run along/inside that dark space below the cabinet (a shelf space for small items). So, would seem better to mount it to the right of the toilet. Either way, a hose (outlet of pump) is fairly prominent/visible, running across my fine teak cabinetry/moulding . Either with a hard 90 out of the pump, then hose, or orient the pump outlet to 45* off vertical and have a straight run of hose out. (Both drawn in pic.). Can’t mount pump any lower b/c bottom of pump must not be lower than top of bowl to function properly, says the manual.

Ok, I don’t care about the teak trim *that* much, but I would like to make the install as clean as possible, without hoses running over trim, etc. Seems like I may need to compromise somewhere...where, is the question.

Time to go back to boat and play around with mounting locations, since it seems like the through-bulkhead-no-access-to-port-option isn’t a good one on my head (port would basically be inaccessible without removing pump entirely).

View attachment 555670

Another option seems like it would be mounting the pump (again, surface mount T/A pump) on the surface/front of the hose cabinet, per the pic below. (Represents pump with two hard 90s, and handle.)

This would require hard 90s in and out of the pump, to get the hose into the cabinet. This would have the benefit of hiding the hoses. Hard 90s aren’t great, I know, but poo is soft so, ok, right

This also has the benefit of not requiring the toilet bowl mounting shelf to be modified. (If, as in the other option above, I mount the pump behind the toilet instead, I’d have to scab on 3-4” of wood (1x4) on the front edge of the shelf to allow the bowl to be mounted a bit further forward in order to accommodate/fit the pump on the cabinet behind, since the pump is deep/thick front to back. Toilet bowl lid would crash into pump otherwise.)

Downside of this second option, pump mounted higher up, on the hose cabinet as in the pic below, is the hard 90s. I don’t know how “bad” that downside is. Not recommended, I know, but bad? Not totally sure if hose flexibility/routing would allow this mounting, with the hard 90s.

(Just realized it’s U.S. Thanksgiving today [I’m in Canada] —hence reluctance to discuss marine toilets in depth here right now .