The throne of England

[DDW]

Mounting it over the sink would solve the where-does-the-$hit-go-when-I-open-the-port problem though maybe not in the best way. I think it would compromise the usefullness of the sink too. What is behind the cabinet face behind the bowl? If it is more or less dead space hiding the curve of the hull, maybe push that back?

Sadly, boats are full of compromises, a lesson I learned well even though starting from a clean sheet with mine. But I also learned that the more thought that is put into a problem, the better the solutions get.

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

Mounting it over the sink would solve the where-does-the-$hit-go-when-I-open-the-port problem though maybe not in the best way. I think it would compromise the usefullness of the sink too. What is behind the cabinet face behind the bowl? If it is more or less dead space hiding the curve of the hull, maybe push that back?

Sadly, boats are full of compromises, a lesson I learned well even though starting from a clean sheet with mine. But I also learned that the more thought that is put into a problem, the better the solutions get.

So, I think I’ve come to terms with mounting the pump behind the toilet, basically as originally planned (when I didn’t see any other options yet also didn’t see a good way to do this). The pump outlet hose will be partially visible, whereas I was hoping/trying to conceal it all mostly. Oh well.

Having installed the old Jabsco toilet and run the hoses for that 15 years ago, I’d forgotten just how much not fun it is running marine plumbing

One thing I’m trying to figure out - how to get my sink drain to “work”. I plumbed my head so that I can use the sink to fill the head with fresh water when the toilet isn’t being used for more than a few days, to mitigate the decomposing zooplankton smell. So, as is common, I put a T in the toilet salt water supply hose: one leg of the T supplies the toilet, the other leg goes up to the counter sink drain. I installed a ball valve above the T to be able to change the toilet water source from salt to fresh.

This means, of course, that the ball valve is closed almost always, since the toilet is being supplied with saltwater. So, since the sink can’t drain (“easily”), we wash our hands, after using the head, at the galley sink. The ball valve for salt/fresh in the head is underneath the counter where the sink is, but it’s somewhat inconvenient to open/close the valve every time you use toilet and then want to wash hands (I.e., open valve to allow sink to drain), and then close ball valve to return the hose to toilet use mode.

In practice, whatever - no big deal. But sometimes the galley sink is stacked full of clean dishes and it’s not easy to access tap to wash hands. So, it would be nice to be able to use the head sink. (Head sink tap would be plumbed with saltwater, via hand or foot pump.)

Trying to figure out a good way to make head sink useable/stainable. Since the ball valve for fresh/salt to head is under the counter (and must be lower than drain to function), the only thing I can think of is to cut a hole in side of sink counter to allow that ball valve to be accessible not under the counter, but outside of it, by toilet, to allow you to (more easily) open it to wash hands/drain sink, then close it again afterwards (to allow head saltwater supply to be on). Any other thoughts on this, by chance? Can’t think of another way to make sink easily usable/drainable for hand washing.

 

[DDW]

Not sure I followed how yours is plumbed. But I think I've done what you want to do. There is a reducing T just above the seacock. It is low enough to be below the waterline normally, so the T is flooded by several inches. The Lavac inlet draws from this T which works because it is flooded. The sink drains normally and not through the Lavac, since there is a vent loop from the T to the Lavac (with the tiny air orifice provided in the Lavac kit). No valves at all, nothing to turn.

When I want to flush the head with fresh - usually this is leaving the boat for more than a few days - I close the seacock, run fresh water in the sink which backs up because the thru hull is closed, and then pump the Lavac, it draws the fresh water in the sink drain pipe, done. Leave the thru hull closed, you are leaving for a few days right?

Because the vent loop high point is actually a few inches under the sink rim (right up under the counter), if I actually fill the sink to the rim is will begin to drain slowly into the toilet bowl. This is never an issue in normal use, and can actually be used if you want to give the head a really good rinse.

Both my forward and aft head are done this way and it works brilliantly.

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

Not sure I followed how yours is plumbed. But I think I've done what you want to do. There is a reducing T just above the seacock. It is low enough to be below the waterline normally, so the T is flooded by several inches. The Lavac inlet draws from this T which works because it is flooded. The sink drains normally and not through the Lavac, since there is a vent loop from the T to the Lavac (with the tiny air orifice provided in the Lavac kit). No valves at all, nothing to turn.

When I want to flush the head with fresh - usually this is leaving the boat for more than a few days - I close the seacock, run fresh water in the sink which backs up because the thru hull is closed, and then pump the Lavac, it draws the fresh water in the sink drain pipe, done. Leave the thru hull closed, you are leaving for a few days right?

Because the vent loop high point is actually a few inches under the sink rim (right up under the counter), if I actually fill the sink to the rim is will begin to drain slowly into the toilet bowl. This is never an issue in normal use, and can actually be used if you want to give the head a really good rinse.

Both my forward and aft head are done this way and it works brilliantly.

For some reason, I thought (when, years ago, I plumbed in the fresh water line to be able to “store” toilet with fresh water when unused for more than a few days), that I needed a ball valve between the bottom of the sink (the sink drain) and the T. I think I was concerned that, if there was no valve (or if there was, and it was left open), the toilet would draw in air through the sink drain when you were pumping the toilet to flush it. But, as you note, on your boat the T is “low enough to be below the waterline normally, so the T is flooded by several inches. The Lavac inlet draws from this T which works because it is flooded. The sink drains normally and not through the Lavac, since there is a vent loop from the T to the Lavac (with the tiny air orifice provided in the Lavac kit). No valves at all, nothing to turn.”

So...seems like I don’t need a ball valve in that hose (or, in any case, if I did install one —say, to prevent sea water backing up into the sink when boat heels?— I can just leave it open. Thanks for this - never occurred to me all this time!

 

[DDW]

If the ball valve is in the toilet inlet branch, closing it will only prevent filling the bowl with seawater when you are heeled, as the sink drain branch is still open. The toilet vent loop should be high enough (and the high point with the vent kept inboard far enough) that it will never allow flooding. In extreme conditions or a fault, you can close the seacock which makes both safe. The valve serves no obvious purpose, but it can just be left open rather than removed.

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

If the ball valve is in the toilet inlet branch, closing it will only prevent filling the bowl with seawater when you are heeled, as the sink drain branch is still open. The toilet vent loop should be high enough (and the high point with the vent kept inboard far enough) that it will never allow flooding. In extreme conditions or a fault, you can close the seacock which makes both safe. The valve serves no obvious purpose, but it can just be left open rather than removed.

Curious size for the seawater inlet fitting on the back of the toilet.

Crappy plastic calliper, but it’s basically 3/32” over 3/4”, I.e., 1/32” under 7/8”. Approximately 21-22mm. WTF kind of size is that? I can fit a 3/4” hose on it if I heat it up a lot in just-boiled water to soften it, but the hoses noticeably bulges over the barbs (I.e., is slightly too small). Any clues? Odd size.

(The bowl outlet, however, is a standard 1 1/2”.)

Other thing about the 90 degree saltwater inlet fitting is that it screws on, so it tightens at whatever position in the rotation that the threads allow. If you want it to land somewhere else, I guess you need to Teflon tape the threads enough to create tension so that after spinning it on, the fitting lands in the orientation that you want it to be in? (I’m conscious of over-tightening and cracking it!

 

[longy]

There are no specs on hose barb OD (that I know of). Various manu's have various dimensions. Gentle heating is OK, no harm to hose. If it's really tight sand off some of the barbs height. Installing the hose warm also allows it to seal better around the barb.

 

[DDW]

I thought there was a way to orient the inlet. Does the fitting going into the ceramic bowl have a nut? From some of the exploded views, it looks like it is inserted in a hole in the ceramic, then the nut run down expanding a tubular seal. Don't remember, will have to look at it next time I'm at the boat.

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

I thought there was a way to orient the inlet. Does the fitting going into the ceramic bowl have a nut? From some of the exploded views, it looks like it is inserted in a hole in the ceramic, then the nut run down expanding a tubular seal. Don't remember, will have to look at it next time I'm at the boat.

Sorry - my pic above wasn’t good (And I didn’t provide additional info.)

The fitting is female threaded - threads on to a male thread that sticks out of the back of the top of the bowl.

I was surprised that there is (seems to be) no way to perfectly/accurately set/determine the final orientation of the barb (e.g., facing down, facing left, etc).

Maybe you’re right - maybe there is a nut on the inside of the bowl to allow me to set the orientation of the 90 degree fitting. Hadn’t noticed/hadn’t occurred to me (I didn’t check - I’ve been busy doing carpentry, removing old hoses, etc etc etc. I’ll check!

 

[DDW]

Look for a nut on the outside of the bowl as well - that may be the compression nut for the seal.

 

[Jim in Halifax]

Jud - a hose barb's nominal OD is not measured on the barbs but on the constant diameter behind. Also the hose used with a hose barb should be fairly pliable (heat as required).

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

Look for a nut on the outside of the bowl as well - that may be the compression nut for the seal.

Thanks again for this, DDW. There is indeed a nut on the outside of the bowl - it appeared to be something else when I first looked at it.

Toilet all installed, after way more carpentry mods than expected (to adapt the old Jabsco space to a quite different footprint.). Just a bit of trim remaining.

I’m not 100% happy with it (was hoping to conceal the hoses), but it’s the best I could pull off and in fact it’s totally fine and easily serviceable. And it’s given me the opportunity to cut open a storage locker (red rectangle behind toilet), previously unused space that can hold quite a bit of stuff.

Thanks again for the install advice!

One thing I can’t quite figure out is the string that’s attached to the pump handle - what is for. I don’t have any reason to remove the handle, so I simply use it to secure the handle in so that it can’t eject itself out in bumpy seas. But it’s a mystery to me what it’s intended for...

 

[Jim in Halifax]

One thing I can’t quite figure out is the string that’s attached to the pump handle - what is for.

Those Henderson pumps are also used as manual bilge pumps - a somewhat critical application where one does not want the pump and its handle to become separated...hence the lanyard.

 

[DDW]

Yeah - tie the lanyard to the steering wheel so you don't lose it .

How does the head work, flush, etc? I think you will be happy with that pump position after you get used to looking at it.

In operation, the first several strokes empty the bowl and begin to generate the vacuum that sucks the rinse water in. You can kinda feel and hear when that happens. I pump an additional 15 strokes or so. No need to skimp if it is going overboard. I notice your sink has a pull out sprayer. You can use that to fresh rinse the bowl, just hose it down with the lid open as you pump. (Might also be useful if there are skid marks - EEUWWW!). Depending on how high the water ends up in the bowl after use (got to wait 15 or 30 minutes until it settles down) you may want to open the lid and pump it down if the weather is heavy.

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

Yeah - tie the lanyard to the steering wheel so you don't lose it .

How does the head work, flush, etc? I think you will be happy with that pump position after you get used to looking at it.

In operation, the first several strokes empty the bowl and begin to generate the vacuum that sucks the rinse water in. You can kinda feel and hear when that happens. I pump an additional 15 strokes or so. No need to skimp if it is going overboard. I notice your sink has a pull out sprayer. You can use that to fresh rinse the bowl, just hose it down with the lid open as you pump. (Might also be useful if there are skid marks - EEUWWW!). Depending on how high the water ends up in the bowl after use (got to wait 15 or 30 minutes until it settles down) you may want to open the lid and pump it down if the weather is heavy.

Actually, I haven’t had the guts to try it yet It’s all so pristine and clean now...in fact, I haven’t tried it yet for lack of time and because I haven’t 100% finished the plumbing. I’m actually going to replace that pull out sprayer in the head counter that you mentioned. (It’s part of an obsolete system I’m removing.)

My plumbing goes: seawater inlet through hull valve —> T two branches: to toilet, and up to another T —> two branches: to sink drain, and future seawater supply to new manual pump at counter.

That sprayer has never worked/never been hooked up - was part of my ill-conceived plan to have a shower in the head (using an on-demand propane hot water heater, and electric pump, that I installed elsewhere and never used - finally removing the last vestiges of that bad idea from years ago!)

So, I’m planning (don’t have it/not yet installed, so I don’t know if toilet will flush if that counter-top pump not installed) to install one of these simple Whale Mk 4 hand pumps (pic below) in the sprayer’s place since I’ve never had a functioning counter-top water source in the head. So - maybe that’ll be useful for the function you describe - it’s actually really useful to read your description of the toilet’s/pump’s operation, to sort of know what to anticipate/improve, etc.

So...I’m sort of wondering, based on what you wrote, if a sprayer of some sort might actually be more useful. Question is how...(since I don’t have pressure water/no sprayer - my water system is all manual.). But maybe your point is just that having another water source to be able to add water to the bowl (through the top, when lid is up) is good, and doesn’t need to be a pressurized source?

 

[Whinging Pom]

FFSK have a crap. With a Lavac it will go away. Skid marks? Let the next user deal with them.

Ode to the Lavac (shamelessly plagarised from somewhere!)

I must go down to the heads again, to the broken seat and ask why
Does the lid not fit and the pump not work, however hard I try ?

And the valve's stuck, and the vacuum's gone, and my guts are crying
For a peaceful ****, with a detailed book on lunar alts rising.

I MUST go down to the heads again, I can no longer be denied,
It's wild call and a clear call, though I still retain my pride.

And all I need is small container, perhaps a black rubber bucket,
A dash below, and then on deck, to leeward I will chuck it.

I MUST GO down to the heads again, the seal is quickly mended,
And the pipes are all cleared, and the outlet works as intended.

All I ask is that the suction sucks, and the smile upon my face
Will 'clipse the sun rising; it's not surprising, the heads is a calmer place

 

[Fah Kiew Tu]

So...I’m sort of wondering, based on what you wrote, if a sprayer of some sort might actually be more useful. Question is how...(since I don’t have pressure water/no sprayer - my water system is all manual.). But maybe your point is just that having another water source to be able to add water to the bowl (through the top, when lid is up) is good, and doesn’t need to be a pressurized source?

View attachment 560524

I fitted my deck wash pump in that space and Tee'd off the line to a wash/spray line for the Lavac. I like it that way and so does my GF. Removes any skid marks and ensures the turds go down the hole if they've been a bit reluctant to move.

However the next head will be a dry composting type. But most probably that will occur with the mythical 'next boat'...

FKT

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

I fitted my deck wash pump in that space and Tee'd off the line to a wash/spray line for the Lavac. I like it that way and so does my GF. Removes any skid marks and ensures the turds go down the hole if they've been a bit reluctant to move.



FKT

Ok, I like this idea. I fitted a deck wash pump (actually a basic Jabsco water system pump after I dismantled the pressure water system on board after realizing it was a bad idea - who knows how long it’ll last in saltwater...) up forward in my anchor locker, on a little shelf I made for it.

But I like this idea - I could easily fit the anchor wash down pump under my head counter instead, which has a bunch of almost useless space (which is kind of aggravating...surely I can make it useful storage space, somehow,‘for months of canned food... )

 

[DDW]

For me, life is too short to live without pressure water. "If you don't have it at home you won't miss it on the boat...."

Although when I built mine I did put in a manual backup pump at the galley sink - never had to use it. Pressure water systems have become quite reliable. I recommend the Marco variable speed.

It sounds like you can use your thru-hull valve setup to fresh water rinse by closing the thru hull and running - well pumping - some fresh into the sink then sucking it out the head. That is exactly what I do.

The sprayer is only occasionally useful, I wouldn't put much effort into it on that account. On rare occasions a deposit can get sideways and just doesn't fall down the hole. A bucket of seawater would fix that, casting the drift afloat as it were for a second chance.

I've only had the thing plug rarely, and only temporarily. There will be a jam and the pump handle feels like it is locked up. It is actually hydrolocked, almost certainly by some contents not getting through the duckbill on the outlet of the pump. What I've done then is just leaned on the handle for awhile (it's all plastic bits so you can't go all Rambo on it), and in due course it pops through and everything's Jake again.