the unofficial official 2011 j109 sa thread

on the note of match racing.... a few years ago challenged the other local 109 (in tampa bay) to a match race during St. Pete NOODs (we didnt have a class). That was positively some of the most fun i ever had sailing that boat. i think we used a combination of drop marks and St. Pete beercan fixed marks. Its actually one of my regrets that we never got around to doing it again. If you guys up in Boston ever organize an informal match race, give me a shout. cant say that my prior experience would a be huge asset, but its fun as hell forcing that boat around the course in a match race.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Jambalaya

Super Anarchist
6,551
74
Hamble / Paris
Quite a race this weekend, upwind for 120 miles in 15-25 and downwind for 110 in 20-35

We are improving upwind but downwind in that breeze and decent sized following seas was not good on the boat. We flew the A4 which is I guess around 90sqm for 20 miles but lots of broaches and sailed the last 80 miles under white sails and most of that main only as we were still broaching under jib and main. We did have two 109s ahead who held kites but they were fully crewed, we were two up. A series of better dowwind boats came past rock solid with kites up (A35 asym, JPK 960, Bene 10.7, and all the 105s)

What's the experience of this breeze strength (offshore ideally) in waves ? Too often the waves slewed the stern around and it's very hard to catch it with the helm. Right now a whisker pole for the jib to go wing and wing seems the best idea, rather old school but we thought that whilst on the long run and it's been suggested to me. Reefed main and A4 ?

 

Wam

New member
30
0
Quite a race this weekend, upwind for 120 miles in 15-25 and downwind for 110 in 20-35

We are improving upwind but downwind in that breeze and decent sized following seas was not good on the boat. We flew the A4 which is I guess around 90sqm for 20 miles but lots of broaches and sailed the last 80 miles under white sails and most of that main only as we were still broaching under jib and main. We did have two 109s ahead who held kites but they were fully crewed, we were two up. A series of better dowwind boats came past rock solid with kites up (A35 asym, JPK 960, Bene 10.7, and all the 105s)

What's the experience of this breeze strength (offshore ideally) in waves ? Too often the waves slewed the stern around and it's very hard to catch it with the helm. Right now a whisker pole for the jib to go wing and wing seems the best idea, rather old school but we thought that whilst on the long run and it's been suggested to me. Reefed main and A4 ?
Not sure what you can do, main thing we have always found is stacking the back of the boat, but that is with a full crew. What we have found sometimes is that having our A5 up 95sqm and 1.5 oz, and sailing slightly higher seems to make the boat more stable as the kite rotates less during the waves. The other aspect is having someone playing the kicker all the time, again hard double handed. I think the reefed main would probably reduce the broaching tendency but would make the hoists and drops harder due to less blanketing. We have also discussed on our boat the possbility of adding a fractional kite halyard and a heavy fractional kite, but decided that as the forestay is so high its not worth it, but may be worth it if you are doing a lot of double handed.

As well we did the nationals this weekend down in Weymouth, the on the water stuff was done well but the socail side was not great. 1st day had wind from 8-20 with some massive shifts comming in. 2nd day had 20-25 at the beginning and built through the day to 25-30 when they canned the fourth race. Large amounts of damage throughout the fleet. Final day, 1 hour postponement, went out had one race by the end of it the wind was consistently over 30 so they abandoned the rest of the races. Most boats were'nt flying kites on the second downwind leg of the one race they got in.

Congratulations to J-Dream who put in a very strong finish in the windy conditions to take the win.

 

Jambalaya

Super Anarchist
6,551
74
Hamble / Paris
wam, thanks. JD have a decent amount of experience in the boat (thisnisntheir second win) and we've always noticed they go white sails only from about low 20 knots and that's inshore where the waves are smaller. We put the kite up in 18 and were ok, it was quite interesting that as waves got bigger and breeze went to 23 we started to loose it, the waves would kick the stern round and it was hard to catch before the round up got out of control. We are klicking overselves as we looked pretty golden at the top mark and couldn't hold it.

 

Blur

Super Anarchist
1,223
217
Sweden
What's the experience of this breeze strength (offshore ideally) in waves ? Too often the waves slewed the stern around and it's very hard to catch it with the helm. Right now a whisker pole for the jib to go wing and wing seems the best idea, rather old school but we thought that whilst on the long run and it's been suggested to me. Reefed main and A4 ?
Doublehanded in waves we find that there's a fine line between being ok/fun under the small kite (up to 24-28 knots depending on sea state) and getting caught by waves and puffs in more wind. In the long run think it's a good idea to back down early and go with a jib or a jib top.

This is really when you long for a J/111 to get the boat moving instead och being stuck in the water. We've pushed the limits a few times which resulted in speeds of +20 kots and large bills from the sailmaker :lol:

3640987368_b60430c38a.jpg


 
Last edited by a moderator:

Jambalaya

Super Anarchist
6,551
74
Hamble / Paris
Blur thanks, 21.68 is very impressive on a J109 ! We found at 20 knots breeze we were fine and 25 we were not.

The better downwind boats, JPK 960 and 1010, Arch 35 and J105's got us. In practice when I had the 105 we used to pray for this sort wind as we knew we had a very good chance, horses for courses!

EDIT: Blur you have a #1 and thus a large jibtop, any thoughts on a #3 sized JT ? (I've used one on a TP52 and it worked pretty well)

 
Last edited by a moderator:

pjrs

Member
496
0
Quite a race this weekend, upwind for 120 miles in 15-25 and downwind for 110 in 20-35

We are improving upwind but downwind in that breeze and decent sized following seas was not good on the boat. We flew the A4 which is I guess around 90sqm for 20 miles but lots of broaches and sailed the last 80 miles under white sails and most of that main only as we were still broaching under jib and main. We did have two 109s ahead who held kites but they were fully crewed, we were two up. A series of better dowwind boats came past rock solid with kites up (A35 asym, JPK 960, Bene 10.7, and all the 105s)

What's the experience of this breeze strength (offshore ideally) in waves ? Too often the waves slewed the stern around and it's very hard to catch it with the helm. Right now a whisker pole for the jib to go wing and wing seems the best idea, rather old school but we thought that whilst on the long run and it's been suggested to me. Reefed main and A4 ?
Not sure what you can do, main thing we have always found is stacking the back of the boat, but that is with a full crew. What we have found sometimes is that having our A5 up 95sqm and 1.5 oz, and sailing slightly higher seems to make the boat more stable as the kite rotates less during the waves. The other aspect is having someone playing the kicker all the time, again hard double handed. I think the reefed main would probably reduce the broaching tendency but would make the hoists and drops harder due to less blanketing. We have also discussed on our boat the possbility of adding a fractional kite halyard and a heavy fractional kite, but decided that as the forestay is so high its not worth it, but may be worth it if you are doing a lot of double handed.

As well we did the nationals this weekend down in Weymouth, the on the water stuff was done well but the socail side was not great. 1st day had wind from 8-20 with some massive shifts comming in. 2nd day had 20-25 at the beginning and built through the day to 25-30 when they canned the fourth race. Large amounts of damage throughout the fleet. Final day, 1 hour postponement, went out had one race by the end of it the wind was consistently over 30 so they abandoned the rest of the races. Most boats were'nt flying kites on the second downwind leg of the one race they got in.

Congratulations to J-Dream who put in a very strong finish in the windy conditions to take the win.
Jambalaya - what sort of TWA were you trying to acheive?

Blurs comments are spot on, and you can't get away from the fact the 109 does need some weight - as you noticed the fully crewed guys were ok - they would undoubtedly have been stacked on the weather rail. I would also echo wam's comments that heating up in that much breeze with the tack all the way down makes things more stable. If you can get the boat unstuck you can bring her down at speed. Needs 27+ TWS to do this though and don't know if thats possible two up. As a radical suggestion, what about a deeper rudder? MIght make things more forgiving in the waves.

Don't think the JD guys would go whites only much under 30 knots. They only went whites once this weekend on the 2nd windy run on Sunday - steady 28 TWS - the highest gust I saw was 33. By this time they were in a commanding position in the series and 1st in the race. They had also already blown the A2 the day before. VE who were second in series and chasing tried to hold the kite but got a twist in the gybe.

Regarding the nationals, on the water was really good - very good PRO - lots of time on the radio telling us what was going on - what his thoughts were, bollocking us for starts, and good use of the black flag. I've real respect for the guys in the RIBS after two days of 25+ TWS - it couldn't have been fun. Racing was pretty tight and there was even some semblence of rules observance at the front of the fleet. The social was appauling though, highlighted by them hiring out the sailing centre for a wedding on the sat night - WTF???!!.

 

JL92S

Super Anarchist
1,779
426
UK
Quite a race this weekend, upwind for 120 miles in 15-25 and downwind for 110 in 20-35

We are improving upwind but downwind in that breeze and decent sized following seas was not good on the boat. We flew the A4 which is I guess around 90sqm for 20 miles but lots of broaches and sailed the last 80 miles under white sails and most of that main only as we were still broaching under jib and main. We did have two 109s ahead who held kites but they were fully crewed, we were two up. A series of better dowwind boats came past rock solid with kites up (A35 asym, JPK 960, Bene 10.7, and all the 105s)

What's the experience of this breeze strength (offshore ideally) in waves ? Too often the waves slewed the stern around and it's very hard to catch it with the helm. Right now a whisker pole for the jib to go wing and wing seems the best idea, rather old school but we thought that whilst on the long run and it's been suggested to me. Reefed main and A4 ?
sound like it was a hard but tough race! the j111 basically planned from the rock back not dipping below 15kts and topped out at 22.6kts with their jibtop, i agree with the jibtop being a good sail for when it's too windy for a kite (a well designed JT should be able to fly in 12kts tight reaching to 40kts blast reaching) but having done a previous delivery on a 109 from dartmouth in 20-25kts we had a small A5 that we could reach with and even have a play on the waves (all be it in the pitch black!) but with the sheets locked off and about a foot and a half of tack eased just to keep the bow out the waves it was a fun boat to helm back. just had an experience using a furling A5 on the new j108 today, it's a really neat piece of kit making it the easiest kite douse ever! worth a look at

 

Jambalaya

Super Anarchist
6,551
74
Hamble / Paris
wam & pjrs - very interesting and thanks

We noted of the two 109s in front of us the boat sailing lower broached much more, we put that down to crew work but perhaps it was as you describe an issue of stability. We were trying to work the boat and waves for max speed, perhaps a little higher would have helped and with a reef in the main. Wasn't looking at numbers for TWA, we were taking a line between the two 109s just ahead. We kept the tack down, for me that would be normal practice in those sort of waves as you are typically weaving around.

My immediate thought was a bigger rudder would have helped but that's not an option, cost and keeping the boat OD for occasional events and re-sale.

JL92s - furling kite could work but will not make the budgetary considerations, already spending more than I wanted ! I'd probably do a JT before a furling kite. I'm pricing up a whisker pole, bit cruisey/old school but could be effective.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Throatwarbler-Mangrove

Super Anarchist
3,249
33
New England
on to more important things - no one really replied to my question about which holes in the spreader tips your upper shrouds are led through. i emailed with north's 109 guy over the weekend and he thinks it's usually the aft holes all the way up (ours go through aft holes in bottom spreader tip and forward holes in upper spreader tip) but doesn't think it is likely to make that much difference. i'm just worried that we are putting loads on upper spreaders in ways they weren't designed to take, and that our tension readings will be off.

next time a few of you are at your boats can you take a look and just let me know how yours are led?

thanks!
Ours is in the forward hole as well. I can't imagine that it makes much difference.

 

j109

New member
24
0
UK
Yeah still dont understand why they put it the same weekend as the RORC race, seems to have hurt entries.

http://www.sailracer...p?eventid=79044

Down to 24 from normal numbers of about 30. Based on the recent solent results my money is on one of Velvet Elvis, Jahmali and J Dream.

Weather looks like it should be good as well.
Class organised the Nationals before the RORC race schedule for 2011 was released. About to encounter the same problem for 2012!

 
wam & pjrs - very interesting and thanks

We noted of the two 109s in front of us the boat sailing lower broached much more, we put that down to crew work but perhaps it was as you describe an issue of stability. We were trying to work the boat and waves for max speed, perhaps a little higher would have helped and with a reef in the main. Wasn't looking at numbers for TWA, we were taking a line between the two 109s just ahead. We kept the tack down, for me that would be normal practice in those sort of waves as you are typically weaving around.

My immediate thought was a bigger rudder would have helped but that's not an option, cost and keeping the boat OD for occasional events and re-sale.

JL92s - furling kite could work but will not make the budgetary considerations, already spending more than I wanted ! I'd probably do a JT before a furling kite. I'm pricing up a whisker pole, bit cruisey/old school but could be effective.
Been meaning to ask you how you managed to get your rating down to 1.011? Is this the lowest IRC rated J109?

 

j109

New member
24
0
UK
Quite a race this weekend, upwind for 120 miles in 15-25 and downwind for 110 in 20-35

We are improving upwind but downwind in that breeze and decent sized following seas was not good on the boat. We flew the A4 which is I guess around 90sqm for 20 miles but lots of broaches and sailed the last 80 miles under white sails and most of that main only as we were still broaching under jib and main. We did have two 109s ahead who held kites but they were fully crewed, we were two up. A series of better dowwind boats came past rock solid with kites up (A35 asym, JPK 960, Bene 10.7, and all the 105s)

What's the experience of this breeze strength (offshore ideally) in waves ? Too often the waves slewed the stern around and it's very hard to catch it with the helm. Right now a whisker pole for the jib to go wing and wing seems the best idea, rather old school but we thought that whilst on the long run and it's been suggested to me. Reefed main and A4 ?
Not sure what you can do, main thing we have always found is stacking the back of the boat, but that is with a full crew. What we have found sometimes is that having our A5 up 95sqm and 1.5 oz, and sailing slightly higher seems to make the boat more stable as the kite rotates less during the waves. The other aspect is having someone playing the kicker all the time, again hard double handed. I think the reefed main would probably reduce the broaching tendency but would make the hoists and drops harder due to less blanketing. We have also discussed on our boat the possbility of adding a fractional kite halyard and a heavy fractional kite, but decided that as the forestay is so high its not worth it, but may be worth it if you are doing a lot of double handed.

As well we did the nationals this weekend down in Weymouth, the on the water stuff was done well but the socail side was not great. 1st day had wind from 8-20 with some massive shifts comming in. 2nd day had 20-25 at the beginning and built through the day to 25-30 when they canned the fourth race. Large amounts of damage throughout the fleet. Final day, 1 hour postponement, went out had one race by the end of it the wind was consistently over 30 so they abandoned the rest of the races. Most boats were'nt flying kites on the second downwind leg of the one race they got in.

Congratulations to J-Dream who put in a very strong finish in the windy conditions to take the win.
Jambalaya - what sort of TWA were you trying to acheive?

Blurs comments are spot on, and you can't get away from the fact the 109 does need some weight - as you noticed the fully crewed guys were ok - they would undoubtedly have been stacked on the weather rail. I would also echo wam's comments that heating up in that much breeze with the tack all the way down makes things more stable. If you can get the boat unstuck you can bring her down at speed. Needs 27+ TWS to do this though and don't know if thats possible two up. As a radical suggestion, what about a deeper rudder? MIght make things more forgiving in the waves.

Don't think the JD guys would go whites only much under 30 knots. They only went whites once this weekend on the 2nd windy run on Sunday - steady 28 TWS - the highest gust I saw was 33. By this time they were in a commanding position in the series and 1st in the race. They had also already blown the A2 the day before. VE who were second in series and chasing tried to hold the kite but got a twist in the gybe.

Regarding the nationals, on the water was really good - very good PRO - lots of time on the radio telling us what was going on - what his thoughts were, bollocking us for starts, and good use of the black flag. I've real respect for the guys in the RIBS after two days of 25+ TWS - it couldn't have been fun. Racing was pretty tight and there was even some semblence of rules observance at the front of the fleet. The social was appauling though, highlighted by them hiring out the sailing centre for a wedding on the sat night - WTF???!!.


Unfair re social at WPNSA - great hog roast on Friday night (although admittedly not for the veggies) and the band and dinner at the prizegiving were excellent. The party went on until the small hours. If you want to organise next time I am sure the Committee would appreciate the assistance!

 

j109

New member
24
0
UK
Quite a race this weekend, upwind for 120 miles in 15-25 and downwind for 110 in 20-35

We are improving upwind but downwind in that breeze and decent sized following seas was not good on the boat. We flew the A4 which is I guess around 90sqm for 20 miles but lots of broaches and sailed the last 80 miles under white sails and most of that main only as we were still broaching under jib and main. We did have two 109s ahead who held kites but they were fully crewed, we were two up. A series of better dowwind boats came past rock solid with kites up (A35 asym, JPK 960, Bene 10.7, and all the 105s)

What's the experience of this breeze strength (offshore ideally) in waves ? Too often the waves slewed the stern around and it's very hard to catch it with the helm. Right now a whisker pole for the jib to go wing and wing seems the best idea, rather old school but we thought that whilst on the long run and it's been suggested to me. Reefed main and A4 ?
Not sure what you can do, main thing we have always found is stacking the back of the boat, but that is with a full crew. What we have found sometimes is that having our A5 up 95sqm and 1.5 oz, and sailing slightly higher seems to make the boat more stable as the kite rotates less during the waves. The other aspect is having someone playing the kicker all the time, again hard double handed. I think the reefed main would probably reduce the broaching tendency but would make the hoists and drops harder due to less blanketing. We have also discussed on our boat the possbility of adding a fractional kite halyard and a heavy fractional kite, but decided that as the forestay is so high its not worth it, but may be worth it if you are doing a lot of double handed.

As well we did the nationals this weekend down in Weymouth, the on the water stuff was done well but the socail side was not great. 1st day had wind from 8-20 with some massive shifts comming in. 2nd day had 20-25 at the beginning and built through the day to 25-30 when they canned the fourth race. Large amounts of damage throughout the fleet. Final day, 1 hour postponement, went out had one race by the end of it the wind was consistently over 30 so they abandoned the rest of the races. Most boats were'nt flying kites on the second downwind leg of the one race they got in.

Congratulations to J-Dream who put in a very strong finish in the windy conditions to take the win.
Wam - what was wrong with the socials? There were free drinks at the start of the two socials and one night for crews to investigate the delights of Weymouth. Trying to cater for all tastes is impossible!

 

j109

New member
24
0
UK
wam & pjrs - very interesting and thanks

We noted of the two 109s in front of us the boat sailing lower broached much more, we put that down to crew work but perhaps it was as you describe an issue of stability. We were trying to work the boat and waves for max speed, perhaps a little higher would have helped and with a reef in the main. Wasn't looking at numbers for TWA, we were taking a line between the two 109s just ahead. We kept the tack down, for me that would be normal practice in those sort of waves as you are typically weaving around.

My immediate thought was a bigger rudder would have helped but that's not an option, cost and keeping the boat OD for occasional events and re-sale.

JL92s - furling kite could work but will not make the budgetary considerations, already spending more than I wanted ! I'd probably do a JT before a furling kite. I'm pricing up a whisker pole, bit cruisey/old school but could be effective.
Been meaning to ask you how you managed to get your rating down to 1.011? Is this the lowest IRC rated J109?

There is a nano second when you can tell the boat is about to broach. Play the kicker and the main, ease the kite and you can usually recover it. Difficult when 2-handed!

She goes dead downwind with white sails and in high 20knots it is quicker than with the kite if you have to gybe. Tried and tested against others with and without. Evident in the last race of the Nationals.

 

bowboy

Anarchist
527
0
Chicago, IL
on to more important things - no one really replied to my question about which holes in the spreader tips your upper shrouds are led through. i emailed with north's 109 guy over the weekend and he thinks it's usually the aft holes all the way up (ours go through aft holes in bottom spreader tip and forward holes in upper spreader tip) but doesn't think it is likely to make that much difference. i'm just worried that we are putting loads on upper spreaders in ways they weren't designed to take, and that our tension readings will be off.

next time a few of you are at your boats can you take a look and just let me know how yours are led?

thanks!
Ours is in the forward hole as well. I can't imagine that it makes much difference.
thanks twm. as long as the rig continues to look straight and not come down down i think we'll leave it until the offseason :)

 

Wam

New member
30
0
J109

I agree the hog roast on the first night was good. The issues i think came with the other two nights, the first as someone has said was the wedding in the bar on sat which meant you had to drink in the cafeteria or find somewhere else. I think the main issue for the last night was that a lot of boats seemed to have gone home and therefore the really large room felt rather empty.

But having organised events like this before i appreciate the difficulties the committee face and would like to thank them for the effort they put it. Also i will echo pjrs in saying the PRO was excellent.

 

Wam

New member
30
0
Yeah still dont understand why they put it the same weekend as the RORC race, seems to have hurt entries.

http://www.sailracer...p?eventid=79044

Down to 24 from normal numbers of about 30. Based on the recent solent results my money is on one of Velvet Elvis, Jahmali and J Dream.

Weather looks like it should be good as well.
Class organised the Nationals before the RORC race schedule for 2011 was released. About to encounter the same problem for 2012!
Ah didnt realise this, although even if there is a clash next year, should have less of an effect in a non fastnet year.

 

j109

New member
24
0
UK
J109

I agree the hog roast on the first night was good. The issues i think came with the other two nights, the first as someone has said was the wedding in the bar on sat which meant you had to drink in the cafeteria or find somewhere else. I think the main issue for the last night was that a lot of boats seemed to have gone home and therefore the really large room felt rather empty.

Sounds like that was individual boat's issue. Good thing neither Stalker or Shiva won as there would have been nobody to award the trophy too!

Saturday night gave time for trip to Weymouth or many went to The Cove pub which was rammed on Thursday night too.

But having organised events like this before i appreciate the difficulties the committee face and would like to thank them for the effort they put it. Also i will echo pjrs in saying the PRO was excellent.
 
Top