the unofficial official 2011 j109 sa thread

Jambalaya

Super Anarchist
6,551
74
Hamble / Paris
Thanks for the further feedback on performance and sailing technique, welcome to SA "J109"

I've raced against 109s since they came out, inc first two years before they had any OD, we have certainly observed that over 20 knots they often go to white sails and this includes the very best best boats like J-Dream and Jamahli (most recently at windy Dartweek 2010) - they wouldn't do this without good reason. As I noted at 25+ we couldn't even sail with full and and jib given the large waves - it was main only DDW. This was during the day too, we need a plan for at night when tired, with the 105 for example you can put the pilot on as it doesn't get tired and confused. I'm not sure the pilot could drive the 109 downwind in those conditions.

The rating of the boat, #357 previously Munkenbeck and Partners was 1.029 Endorsed I understand. All I've done is rate for a #3 only, it's a new sail sightly larger than the OD #3 at HSA 29.46. The rating came out at 1.011 - it's not endorsed as Ultimate Sails are not yet registered as an approved measurer. We have OD main and kite - both from Elvstrom from 2008. I have a new AP kite coming from Ultimate. The boat has been weighed & measured as per the Endorsed Certificate, its got plenty of options like heating and auto-pilot and I'm not exactly a weight-Nazi either in terms of what we carry when racing, coffee pots, multiple pans, baking trays and beers don't weigh much anyway and improve crew morale! EDIT: the boat was coded for charter and so has 5 fire-extinguishers including one of the largest I've ever seen on a boat, that'll come off for the Fastnet !

The RORC always have races on the May Bank Holidays, so to say the J109 nationals were organized first is a bit cheeky <_<

It's actually really good to see 9 J019's racing RORC as historically participation has been quite light from the fleet (given there are 40-50 boats on South Coast), certainly in comparison to say the J105 fleet where 50% of the boats would regularly race offshore. It has really helped us to be able to "measure up", we were thrilled to round Eddystone after 130 miles upwind in 10-25 knots next to the two leading J109's both with crew (8 people on JIBE).The race showed in 20-35 we have no chance of matching crewed 109's downwind nor 2-handed J105's/JPK's and A35's - what we must do is maximise our performance, "be as good as we can be" and all that cliched bollix :lol:

Finally - stumbler, I think our cap shrouds are in the rear most holes, but after the long windy race perhaps I wasn't seeing straight. Will get you a photo if I visit the boat this weekend, for the avoidance of doubt.

 
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more in the 25k+ range they go DDW in whites, most people were flying their kites in the 20-25k range, and the top half of the fleet were holding them most of the time in the 25+ range, stalker did a brilliant last run, just the jibes that arn't so slick as the whites. A very loaded up boat in these conditions especially compared to the more transitional hulls like you were mentioning.

 

JL92S

Super Anarchist
1,779
426
UK
if you can be prepared to potentially lose sails and broach then it can be worth putting kites up in strong wind because from what i've heard is that with serious poking a j109 will pick up and go in over 35kts of wind to 15+kts speed, supreme helming and perfect trimming combined with titanium balls should do it.

 

bowboy

Anarchist
527
0
Chicago, IL
i think the 109 is a very fun boat under kite in breeze, with two caveats - you need weight (sorry jambalaya!) and they don't seem to "settle in" to a groove when going deep like some (especially pole) boats so it's nice to have the ability to heat up a smidge more than you might normally on a boat like that in big breeze (trimming kite to it but keeping the main well eased). however, i haven't done anything offshore on these boats, so my experience with waves is probably very different than those of you who have. the titanium balls jl92s mentioned would probably help with a big following sea at night :)

one other thing - we have a sort of mystery chicken kite that came with the boat. it clearly was once a class sail as it has tags, but it's been cut down a bunch. my brother in law used it for a double handed delivery last year in pretty heavy air and gave rave reviews - i think they were pretty solidly in the low-mid teens for hours on end. i'll ask him about it and if it points to any potential sail inventory ideas for jambalaya and other short-handers i'll post his thoughts here.

also, thanks jambalaya for the additional data point on shrouds :) i'll keep collecting them as long as people keep chiming in - might be interesting to see if us and twb are anomalies or if the fleet is split as to how the cap shrouds are led.

 
on to more important things - no one really replied to my question about which holes in the spreader tips your upper shrouds are led through. i emailed with north's 109 guy over the weekend and he thinks it's usually the aft holes all the way up (ours go through aft holes in bottom spreader tip and forward holes in upper spreader tip) but doesn't think it is likely to make that much difference. i'm just worried that we are putting loads on upper spreaders in ways they weren't designed to take, and that our tension readings will be off.

next time a few of you are at your boats can you take a look and just let me know how yours are led?

thanks!
Ours is in the forward hole as well. I can't imagine that it makes much difference.

We definitely ran the main shrouds in the aft holes on both spreaders on our (former) UK based J109's and here's one of those pictures sailmakers love to take - with a fair bit of backstay on..... DDW, white sails are definitely the way to go in 28 KTS plus, unless very flat water and even then, the helm and ALL of the crew have to be confident enough to gybe at speed and be able to nail everyone perfectly. Any extra speed gained is far outweighed by WHEN it all goes wrong. For inshore two handed races, we generally white sailed above 18-20 kts but mainly because it becomes too hard to get it down at that point!

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Thanks for the further feedback on performance and sailing technique, welcome to SA "J109"

I've raced against 109s since they came out, inc first two years before they had any OD, we have certainly observed that over 20 knots they often go to white sails and this includes the very best best boats like J-Dream and Jamahli (most recently at windy Dartweek 2010) - they wouldn't do this without good reason. As I noted at 25+ we couldn't even sail with full and and jib given the large waves - it was main only DDW. This was during the day too, we need a plan for at night when tired, with the 105 for example you can put the pilot on as it doesn't get tired and confused. I'm not sure the pilot could drive the 109 downwind in those conditions.

The rating of the boat, #357 previously Munkenbeck and Partners was 1.029 Endorsed I understand. All I've done is rate for a #3 only, it's a new sail sightly larger than the OD #3 at HSA 29.46. The rating came out at 1.011 - it's not endorsed as Ultimate Sails are not yet registered as an approved measurer. We have OD main and kite - both from Elvstrom from 2008. I have a new AP kite coming from Ultimate. The boat has been weighed & measured as per the Endorsed Certificate, its got plenty of options like heating and auto-pilot and I'm not exactly a weight-Nazi either in terms of what we carry when racing, coffee pots, multiple pans, baking trays and beers don't weigh much anyway and improve crew morale! EDIT: the boat was coded for charter and so has 5 fire-extinguishers including one of the largest I've ever seen on a boat, that'll come off for the Fastnet !

The RORC always have races on the May Bank Holidays, so to say the J109 nationals were organized first is a bit cheeky
dry.gif


It's actually really good to see 9 J019's racing RORC as historically participation has been quite light from the fleet (given there are 40-50 boats on South Coast), certainly in comparison to say the J105 fleet where 50% of the boats would regularly race offshore. It has really helped us to be able to "measure up", we were thrilled to round Eddystone after 130 miles upwind in 10-25 knots next to the two leading J109's both with crew (8 people on JIBE).The race showed in 20-35 we have no chance of matching crewed 109's downwind nor 2-handed J105's/JPK's and A35's - what we must do is maximise our performance, "be as good as we can be" and all that cliched bollix :lol:

Finally - stumbler, I think our cap shrouds are in the rear most holes, but after the long windy race perhaps I wasn't seeing straight. Will get you a photo if I visit the boat this weekend, for the avoidance of doubt.
You can hardly call Dartweek a serious regatta, definately not worth blowing a kite for. And for your information, J-Dream would never go to white sail in anything less than 35 kts. They have the crew to handle it and the best helm. I can remember having the A2 up having gusts of over 40 kts and a steady 30 + kts when the boat planed for the whole run at 19 kts going from 6th to 1st...

A larger #3 with a lower rating??? How does that work?

 

Jambalaya

Super Anarchist
6,551
74
Hamble / Paris
Dartweek is pretty serious, certainly better standard of sailing than Cowes Week or most of the regular IRC regattas in the Solent (exlcuding things like IRC Nationals)

I've sailed against JD a lot in the 105 (over 3 or 4 seasons in the class at same time as them) and observed them on the 109 at plenty of events and they are frequently on white sails below 30 knots (even on the 105 which is a better boat downwind). That's because it's faster in the 109 that way.

With the #1 the rating was 1.029 (from memory) with the "large 3" its 1.011 changing nothing else.

 
Jambalaya, you may have raced against them in the 105. When they got the 109 they changed a few of the crew. Having done their bow for the past 3 years I think I may have observed what sails we had up at the pointy end and I can assure you if we could get a kite up, we would. They may have changed that in the last 6 weeks as I'm now doing a Fastnet 2 handed campaign but I doubt it.

 

Jambalaya

Super Anarchist
6,551
74
Hamble / Paris
Jambalaya, you may have raced against them in the 105. When they got the 109 they changed a few of the crew. Having done their bow for the past 3 years I think I may have observed what sails we had up at the pointy end and I can assure you if we could get a kite up, we would. They may have changed that in the last 6 weeks as I'm now doing a Fastnet 2 handed campaign but I doubt it.
Touche ! Which boat, am I beating you so far ? :p

"Unfortunately" I'm doing St Malo and Fastnet with crew, might squeeze in another race or two two handed to get some mileage out of the boat.

 

Jambalaya

Super Anarchist
6,551
74
Hamble / Paris
Did you jump ship as they asked you to wear one of these shirts ? (J-D National Champions 2011)

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j109

New member
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0
UK
Jambalaya, you may have raced against them in the 105. When they got the 109 they changed a few of the crew. Having done their bow for the past 3 years I think I may have observed what sails we had up at the pointy end and I can assure you if we could get a kite up, we would. They may have changed that in the last 6 weeks as I'm now doing a Fastnet 2 handed campaign but I doubt it.
Touche ! Which boat, am I beating you so far ? :p

"Unfortunately" I'm doing St Malo and Fastnet with crew, might squeeze in another race or two two handed to get some mileage out of the boat.


Suspect they did not fly it on the last run of the Nationals because they only had an A2 left having blown up a heavy kite the day before and they were so far in front.........

 

pjrs

Member
496
0
umm, dock talk with Kirsty was that it was the A2 they blew up, but only they will know for sure. We were surprised they would have been flying it in that much breeze.

They were a way out in front for what turned out to be the last race in the event, which would totally justify the whites only option for the last leg, I also suspect the kite would have been ready to go if needed. As someone mentioned, Stalker had a pretty good last run taking 100+ yards out of the leaders by flying the kite, high risk strategy though. JL92S made the point that the boat can get on the plane if really prodded, but needs 32+ knots, so I guess theres a TWS band from 27-32 where the whites will pay. Double handed is a totally different game due to the lack of moveable ballast.

And yes, that crew gear is a justifiable excuse for mutiny :ph34r: Haven't seen it recently...

 
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umm, dock talk with Kirsty was that it was the A2 they blew up, but only they will know for sure. We were surprised they would have been flying it in that much breeze.

They were a way out in front for what turned out to be the last race in the event, which would totally justify the whites only option for the last leg, I also suspect the kite would have been ready to go if needed. As someone mentioned, Stalker had a pretty good last run taking 100+ yards out of the leaders by flying the kite, high risk strategy though. JL92S made the point that the boat can get on the plane if really prodded, but needs 32+ knots, so I guess theres a TWS band from 27-32 where the whites will pay. Double handed is a totally different game due to the lack of moveable ballast.

And yes, that crew gear is a justifiable excuse for mutiny :ph34r: Haven't seen it recently...
The shirts are lovely... May wear mine tommorrow in Gosport... ;-)

 
Nice green shirts too....

As for flying an A2 it makes sense if you can handle it, better cut for going deeper and theoretically a bigger kite would lift the bow more if I'm not mistaken.

 

Wam

New member
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0
I was surprised by the number of people flying A2 0.75oz in the 25 knots plus, i believe north make a 1.1 oz full size A4 and certainly Elvstrom make a 0.9oz A4, which is actually cut more for down wind than there A2, due to the changing angles in the increasing pressure.

 

j109

New member
24
0
UK
umm, dock talk with Kirsty was that it was the A2 they blew up, but only they will know for sure. We were surprised they would have been flying it in that much breeze.

They were a way out in front for what turned out to be the last race in the event, which would totally justify the whites only option for the last leg, I also suspect the kite would have been ready to go if needed. As someone mentioned, Stalker had a pretty good last run taking 100+ yards out of the leaders by flying the kite, high risk strategy though. JL92S made the point that the boat can get on the plane if really prodded, but needs 32+ knots, so I guess theres a TWS band from 27-32 where the whites will pay. Double handed is a totally different game due to the lack of moveable ballast.

And yes, that crew gear is a justifiable excuse for mutiny :ph34r: Haven't seen it recently...
They only wear it to prizegivings but at least they are fun rather than boring colours! The green was an interesting choice which they wore at the Nationals!

 

j109

New member
24
0
UK
I was surprised by the number of people flying A2 0.75oz in the 25 knots plus, i believe north make a 1.1 oz full size A4 and certainly Elvstrom make a 0.9oz A4, which is actually cut more for down wind than there A2, due to the changing angles in the increasing pressure.
The Sobstad kites are not as full across the head - full stop. The North Sails kite allows the J/109 to run deep. If you can handle the A2 not sure why you would put up anything else? Don't broach! Kicker a really important job and playing the main can also be a saviour.

 

Wam

New member
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0
I agree the north kites allow you to run deeper, i was just thinking that something heavier maybe nice in case something goes wrong. As well i remember someone ( I think it was Jahmali) who were saying they blew out an A2, without broaching, it just went in the pressure. But yeah i agree there is no need to go any smaller if the crew can handle it.

 

pjrs

Member
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0
As far as I knew, the North A4 is just a heavier version of the A2, same size, same cut but heavier cloth and more reinforcement.

 

Throatwarbler-Mangrove

Super Anarchist
3,249
33
New England
On a slightly different topic...

Do yourselves a favor and carefully inspect your foot blocks, including the wedge that supports them.

I'm not quite sure about the chain of events, but suspect that block must have worked, broke the wedge, and worked some more. One of the 1/4 inch (6 mm) bolt sheared, and the others are twisted into pretzels. The block is twisted and the screw holes broken out. Or maybe the wedge failed first... it seems to be made of Starboard, which is not a great structural material.

Of course, this was in the middle of a race :(

To say nothing of having to spend half of a perfectly good Saturday fabricating a teardrop shaped 5 degree wedge -- and I was fortunate to have a piece of acetyl to do it with. A Harken 1963 costs $150 USD retail, and I had to pay for expedited shipping to get it in time for our next race.

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