the weight

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It might just be a coincidence, but the release last Thursday by the Rating Office of the Royal Ocean Racing Club of its “updated” Measurement Manual for IRC handicaps brought the protracted debate over the rating of Sydney-Hobart winner Celestial immediately to mind.

Maybe that was their intention. The notion that the RORC could now feel the need to bolster its own credentials as a rating agency is difficult to avoid. The wording of the manual is a curious mixture. Some sentences read as self-congratulation; others more like attempts by the RORC to relieve themselves of direct responsibility for the veracity of the ratings they themselves finally determine.

Thus, on the one hand, we have this:

“The IRC Rating Authority takes great care in checking the data supplied, even for standard certificates ... The measurer’s responsibility is to achieve a fair and accurate result, rather than the optimum result for the particular owner.”

But, on the other:

“The international IRC rating rule has always been a self-measurement system, and official measurement is not a rule requirement unless the boat needs an Endorsed IRC certificate.”

The Notice of Race for the Sydney-Hobart does require, at 3.3 (a) (i)), that IRC boats may only enter if they have “a current, valid Endorsed IRC Certificate”. That compulsory endorsement is enabled by Australian Sailing, the national Rule Authority. The IRC Manual spells out the obligations of their key role:

“The Rule Authority carries responsibility for auditing the boat’s data file and for defining what, if any, data is to be verified. In doing this, the data and measurement standards shall be applied.”

Those are firm principles of oversight but Australia Sailing has now three times, refused to answer legitimate questions from SA about the reporting and endorsement process in relation to Celestial. They continue to maintain the absurd fiction that “the processes through which we might present facts are defined and limited by the rules which govern the race”.

In the face of such nonsense, it is inevitable that doubts and uncertainty about the whole system continue. We are moving into ‘What have they got to hide?’ Territory.



Has the local “auditing” process been no more than applying a rubber stamp before the owner-supplied data is passed on to the RORC? How could the Rating Authority then satisfy itself that the data was correct, and issue a “valid endorsed” certificate?

So the real issue that arises from the Celestial saga is not whether or not they raced with an inaccurate handicap. It is much broader than that. (In any case, that horse could already have bolted. We can reasonably assume the yacht is no longer in the same configuration as it was when measured for its December 16 certificate).

No experienced offshore sailor would deny that Celestial raced to Hobart very well against a crack fleet. But the fundamental problem here is one of confidence in the integrity of the IRC system: whether, as currently operated, it is sufficiently transparent and ensures a fair and genuine sporting contest.

In that context, a revealing test case is now emerging.

The veteran offshore skipper Shane Kearns has persisted with his request for a rating review of Crux, the S&S34 whose weight increased between certificates by 181kg while its LWL, somewhat implausibly, diminished.

His request for a review was considered in the UK by a panel of two – the RORC Technical Manager and the Director of the Rating Office. Not surprisingly, they found in their own favor and the data inconsistency was brushed aside:

“The Rule Authority and Rating Authority are satisfied that normal processes and measurement have been followed and believe the latest measurements to be accurate.

“The data differences between the previous and 2021 boat weight and overhangs are within the tolerances stated in IRC rule 9.8.

“Given this, we consider it unnecessary to reweigh or remeasure overhangs in accordance with IRC Rule 9.4.”


(For those who don’t know their 28-page IRC Rules by heart, 9.8 lists the allowable tolerances, including a remarkably generous plus-or-minus 5% for weight. 9.4 permits re-measurement but states that the decision of the Rating Authority “shall be final”.)

Well, Kearns is not conceding defeat just yet. Yesterday he wrote back to the RORC in characteristically forthright terms, quoting the wording of 9.8 that allows re-measurement if “a specific detail is clearly in error” and that the RORC panel’s review had not considered “all the available evidence” as required by the terms of 9.4. He has repeated his application for a re-weigh and re-measure.

Meanwhile, returning to the lingering disquiet over Celestial’s rating, the dockside gossip is that the situation has now become a Mexican standoff between the owner, Sam Haynes, and the other TP52 skippers.

It seems that if anyone moved to formally request a rating review of the Hobart winner Haynes might then request reviews of the other TPs in the fleet. Presumably, this could reveal a fresh range of ‘irregularities’. Maybe they’ve actually all been racing TP53s?

These clubhouse politics are less than edifying, and to the rest of us it’s beginning to look like a classic conspiracy of silence. That, in itself, is evidence that the loopholes in the whole system have become a chasm.

A little more transparency from everyone concerned would be welcome.
 

boots

New member
10
3
Sydney AU
re Crux. "if a specific detail is clearly in error" - perhaps the previous weight and measurements were more "wrong" than the current measurements (not implausible) and we are all just pissing into the wind.
 

sailman

Super Anarchist
8,348
459
Portsmouth, RI
The data on Crux doesn't seem that far off the mark for that style IOR boat. Adding 181kg can shorten the WL, that's how that rule worked (adding weight forward pulled the bustle out of the water)
 

oldgit

New member
4
14
Re: Celestial debate
Now retired, but a measurer for nearly 40 years, I read this debate with interest! The IRC rule which developed from the Anglo / French Channel Handicap of the 1980's was never meant to be a Grand Prix (GP) rule. As an IRC council member in the '90s, I recall that the International Rule Club, as it was originally called, (IRC) was the first part of a proposed two tier system with International Rule Measured (IRM) being developed later to cater for GP events. The IRM failed to establish itself and the alternative GP rule, IMS, proved to be expensive and unpopular with many countries. So we are left with IRC, a rule written for club racers and now bursting at the seams trying to accommodate water ballast, foilers, TP52s et al. The various rating authorities worldwide do a fantastic job trying to hold this fragile thing together as it grows our of all envisaged proportions. Let us give them a chance
 

sailman

Super Anarchist
8,348
459
Portsmouth, RI
Re: Celestial debate
Now retired, but a measurer for nearly 40 years, I read this debate with interest! The IRC rule which developed from the Anglo / French Channel Handicap of the 1980's was never meant to be a Grand Prix (GP) rule. As an IRC council member in the '90s, I recall that the International Rule Club, as it was originally called, (IRC) was the first part of a proposed two tier system with International Rule Measured (IRM) being developed later to cater for GP events. The IRM failed to establish itself and the alternative GP rule, IMS, proved to be expensive and unpopular with many countries. So we are left with IRC, a rule written for club racers and now bursting at the seams trying to accommodate water ballast, foilers, TP52s et al. The various rating authorities worldwide do a fantastic job trying to hold this fragile thing together as it grows our of all envisaged proportions. Let us give them a chance
Git,
What is the difference between IRM and endorsed IRC?
 

duncan (the other one)

Super Anarchist
5,547
565
Siderney
The data on Crux doesn't seem that far off the mark for that style IOR boat. Adding 181kg can shorten the WL, that's how that rule worked (adding weight forward pulled the bustle out of the water)
1/ both overhangs went up.
2/ from previous cert.+ changes to configuration, it was expected to be ~35kg lighter

re Crux. "if a specific detail is clearly in error" - perhaps the previous weight and measurements were more "wrong" than the current measurements (not implausible) and we are all just pissing into the wind.
yup - but wouldn't it be proper procedure to find out if this is the case?

All this fuckkery about IRC - its generous allowances and laissez faire attitude to measurement verification - demonstrates that it is not fit for purpose rule for GP sailing.

That's what ORCi (/IMS) is for.
 

DickDastardly

Super Anarchist
3,935
318
Syderney
All this fuckkery about IRC - its generous allowances and laissez faire attitude to measurement verification - demonstrates that it is not fit for purpose rule for GP sailing.
May well be the case Dunc, but the initial post calls out a bigger problem: the refusal of AS to actually take ownership of and police the quality of measurement data and promote the honesty / gentleman's agreement system. Garbage in, Garbage out. Doesn't matter which rating system you're using if you can't trust the measurement process and data. True that IRC is bad in respect of the integrity of the data coming to it, doesn't help, but the horse has bolted once they get the data IMHO.
 

Lucky Dog

Member
282
27
Detroit
All these grand prix guys push the rules - no one wants to get caught hence the silence.

We have a guy who races one long distance a year - took a stock boat and replaced every item he could in the boat with foam core. Bulkheads, floor boards all lockers - and thats just what I know, I am suspecting the keel has been windowed (weight taken out). the boat is floating about 3 inches higher than water line. Of course getting a endorsed certificate would never happen as floating test would bust him.
My point is that guys who race and are obsessed with winning will do anything they think they can get away with - or rationalize that they are not cheating as hey I got a Certificate Fuck off.
To keep his PHRF numbers from not changing he goes out for 3 or so races and bombs them - I mean 2 hrs after I finish.

Anyway I dropped out of the class and we will not race the guy.
 

DickDastardly

Super Anarchist
3,935
318
Syderney
All these grand prix guys push the rules - no one wants to get caught hence the silence.


Anyway I dropped out of the class and we will not race the guy.
Yes, the sport is suffering as people drop out in the face of big money "optimisation". But it was naiive in the extreme to imagine that the softly,softly approach that AS has been pushing all along was sustainable. Given the money and kudos avbailable there was no chance. Time for a change and it isn't hard to do.
 

duncan (the other one)

Super Anarchist
5,547
565
Siderney
Re: Celestial debate
Now retired, but a measurer for nearly 40 years, I read this debate with interest! The IRC rule which developed from the Anglo / French Channel Handicap of the 1980's was never meant to be a Grand Prix (GP) rule. As an IRC council member in the '90s, I recall that the International Rule Club, as it was originally called, (IRC) was the first part of a proposed two tier system with International Rule Measured (IRM) being developed later to cater for GP events. The IRM failed to establish itself and the alternative GP rule, IMS, proved to be expensive and unpopular with many countries. So we are left with IRC, a rule written for club racers and now bursting at the seams trying to accommodate water ballast, foilers, TP52s et al. The various rating authorities worldwide do a fantastic job trying to hold this fragile thing together as it grows our of all envisaged proportions. Let us give them a chance
Right - but IMS evolved into ORCi. Why not use that?
 

Rawhide

Super Anarchist
1,906
105
Pittwater
When I bought my current yacht, its certificate noted that it hadn't been weighed for many years. it was also supposed to be much heavier than other yachts supposedly identical yachts, so we went on a weight reduction program which I doubt amounted to more than 30 kg, yet strangely when weighed it was 270kg lighter. Go figure!
 

terrafirma

Super Anarchist
7,701
1,399
Melbourne
Clearly the TP52's with so many racing are always pushing their handicap. Ichi Ban was no different. Perhaps some push more than others? Usually the newer 52's both TP and IRC versions are faster than their predecessors so handicap is important obviously. There can be a small inconsistency in the rating process via different measurers. The more you measure the boat the more you are able to zoom in on the best possible rating. Back in the IMS days the higher the salt content in the water the more tender the boat measured, higher amounts of fresh water caused the boat sink more and rate stiffer etc. There are so many factors.
 

Jethrow

Super Anarchist
Did you see the shape of the boats from the IMS days. Slow fat tippy pieces of shit.
Not to start with though. When IMS first took over they were pretty sweet boats compared to previously (the last days of IOR). They only developed the "Slow fat tippy pieces of shit" traits when the performance corners of the formula were prodded.

These can always be accounted for when the type-forming takes place in any rule. I'm not saying ORCi is the fix for everything but it can certainly be tweaked to favour any kind of boat that is desired, as can pretty much any rule. You just have to decide where you want to go.
 

Goodvibes

under the southern cross I stand ...
1,495
444
Yes, the sport is suffering as people drop out in the face of big money "optimisation". But it was naiive in the extreme to imagine that the softly,softly approach that AS has been pushing all along was sustainable. Given the money and kudos avbailable there was no chance. Time for a change and it isn't hard to do.

Couple of classes I noticed that the top boats seemed to live in a different world. 'Mates Rates' endorsements.

Wonder who did all the work for Wild Oats? See what I mean? "Hey Richo, show me your certificate, who signed it off?"

See how that goes.
 


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