There was no SAS

Brian Weslake

Super Anarchist
1,510
0
This comes from something I posted on another thread, but I felt it was worth re-stating.

Firstly, both Coutts and Tom Speer have stated clearly that there was no Stability Augmentation System used on Oracle.

The rumours regarding a Stability Augmentation System originated on the Facebook page of a kiwi called Paul Wiggans https://www.facebook.../paul.wiggans.3, a mechanical engineer. It appears to have been based on speculation only with no inside knowledge of what systems Oracle actually used. It was then circulated to a bunch of gullible journos (including Clean) who were desperate to find a scapegoat for TNZ's loss. As a result it's now widely believed by the NZ public that Oracle won the Americas Cup by cheating.

It's a sad indictment of how social media can shape national opinion.

P.S. Clean, I located the original source of this BS in two minutes using google. Some investigative journalist you turned out to be!

 

1976ler

Member
130
0
left coast
Since some have consciencly deciided to propagate misinformation on this issue implying OR unfairly won the cup, which comes acoss as pure sour grapes despite the clear facts from those that do know and have stated such, this is one thread that is warranted.

From the insistence of some (Clean included) to immediately demand the details of the unfortunate death of a respected Artemis sailor, to the full on character assination of Ian Murry as well as Paul Cayard, this site is clearly the cess pool of political nuclear waste regarding the AC.

Unfortunate that more don't have some sense of priority of the facts over their personal political agendas, like Ta Koodie..

SA's unparalled reputation for politically based garbage and factual inaccuracy is well deserved.

 
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~Stingray~~

Super Anarchist
22,861
28
Clean: Since we are on the subject of the sources of bullshit slingining: It is surely enough past time for you to out who hooked you into posting that JS was about to get banned from the AC.

Who's troll hook was it, that you so readily swallowed?

 
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1976ler

Member
130
0
left coast
And for the record, to prove Ta Koodie and others are full of shit;

Kramer on Saturday denied any use of computer-automated controls to manage the foils and stabilize the yacht. "Negative. No," he said.

The yacht had a stabilization system but it was operated by humans, Kramer said. "There's no computer driving any surfaces at all."

Small electronic switches were used to open and close the hydraulic valves clutches. Theses were commercially available, not customized, according to Kramer.

The measurement committee gave Oracle permission in August to use an "electro-mechanical actuator" to move a valve. The jury on September 6 dismissed New Zealand's claim that the actuator violated the manpower-only rule but on the basis that it was filed too late.

"Most items we used in there are literally servos from your kid's remote-control airplane," Kramer said. "It's exactly as simple as that. It gets bolted to a valve and that is what operates things."

Kramer said the many changes made to the yacht were "all small and all visible."

Clear enough ?

 

Tornado-Cat

Super Anarchist
16,290
1,023
This comes from something I posted on another thread, but I felt it was worth re-stating.

Firstly, both Coutts and Tom Speer have stated clearly that there was no Stability Augmentation System used on Oracle.

The rumours regarding a Stability Augmentation System originated on the Facebook page of a kiwi called Paul Wiggans https://www.facebook.../paul.wiggans.3, a mechanical engineer. It appears to have been based on speculation only with no inside knowledge of what systems Oracle actually used. It was then circulated to a bunch of gullible journos (including Clean) who were desperate to find a scapegoat for TNZ's loss. As a result it's now widely believed by the NZ public that Oracle won the Americas Cup by cheating.

It's a sad indictment of how social media can shape national opinion.

P.S. Clean, I located the original source of this BS in two minutes using google. Some investigative journalist you turned out to be!
Would you expect them to tell the contrary ?

 

Americas Cup

Super Anarchist
1,007
0
The manager of Core Boat builder confirmed this to!

The men he sent ( to change place with the first shift) went there as planned and with no foils or secret kit to make magic.

When they got there they worked their arse of 26/8 to get Oracle foils and other stuff to work as designed... and correctly.

Rudders were a big part of that too!

They made the foil system more understandable, stable, and easy to work to the settings.

Basically the took what they had and got it to work as it should and viola!... the boats speed they had expected came!

Meanwhile ETNZ relied on Pie warmers, and not much else.

 
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bob202

Anarchist
525
26
Firstly, both Coutts and Tom Speer have stated clearly that there was no Stability Augmentation System used on Oracle.

The rumours regarding a Stability Augmentation System originated on the Facebook page of a kiwi called Paul Wiggans https://www.facebook.../paul.wiggans.3, a mechanical engineer. It appears to have been based on speculation only with no inside knowledge of what systems Oracle actually used.
They had something, that much is certain. Whether it was an SAS or something else, they had something which resulted in contributing to the massive improvement throughout the regatta. No amount of plain crew-work improvement could account for the turnaround we saw with OR.

I also dispute that OR's magic piece of tech was first mentioned by that guy on 26 Sept. He may have surmised the SAS part, but the fact ETNZ was writing to the MC in late August shows people either knew or had good indication something of this sort was being worked on.

Similarly, Coutts did not say OR didn't have some magical piece of kit, he just said they did not have a self-adjusting system because that would be illegal (or words to that effect).

It was then circulated to a bunch of gullible journos (including Clean) who were desperate to find a scapegoat for TNZ's loss. As a result it's now widely believed by the NZ public that Oracle won the Americas Cup by cheating.
Nonsense. Most people I know accept the result and are not going around saying or suggesting OR cheated in the finals. What is probably widely thought is that where someone has shown themselves to be cheats on a number of occasions there should be extra effort put in by the authorities to make sure nothing amiss goes on in the future. I think this sentiment would be consistent around the yachting world, not confined to NZ.

People want to be able to trust the Measurement Committee but these are the same people who missed, for over a year, blatant cheating where you'd think there might have been a little more checks in place. Easier said than done for sure but so far as the AC goes, people don't quite realise - nor would they be happy to hear - that the measurement of the boats is not all that comprehensive. They check some stuff but leave the rest to the integrity of the team. That is where the gap between what reality and perception grew so wide. That in-itself is a failing of the measurement system and how they explain it to the public (or don't as is the case).

It's a sad indictment of how social media can shape national opinion.
Agreed, except for the part about national opinion in this particular instance. Only conspiracy theory-prone people are going around saying OR cheated.

I am disappointed for OR in some ways because their ACWS cheating will always cast a poor light over their attitude and actions throughout the entire AC cycle and, especially their contempt for their competitors who were some of the only reasons this AC was of any interest at all. A better way to have managed the whole thing would have been to make it publicly known that the MC would scrutineer all boats far more thoroughly for the AC because of public perception - and that they would be re-scrutinised immediately afterwards also. By not doing doing that the organisers (i.e. ultimately Oracle) have left question-marks hanging there forever.

Most importantly for Oracle is the future implications of this all. It will have a direct impact on potential entrants to the next cup. Such was the negativity surrounding the honesty and integrity of aspects of the way the cup was run teams will be disinclined to enter under anything less than a completely revamped protocol in which the challengers have a much bigger say. Unless Oracle cedes to that they will be looking idly at their feet for the next few years. They defended the cup but will be regarded as relatively untrustworthy by the few key people around the world who are capable of pulling challenges together.

 
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strider470

Super Anarchist
In Naples, if you're willing to waste some money, you can play the game of the three cards in the streets. The queen wins, here is the queen, guess where the queen is. :) The same here with the SAS. Is there any SAS, or not? :)

 
Anyways if it really is there, it's just another innovation of the AC, as long as other teams can use it next time all is good. Or they ban it either way all is fair in love and war. And it's only cheating if ya get caught :p

 

Francisco

Member
202
4
Just one question, in I think the last race, JS pressed a button on steering wheel and boom Oracle was on the foils?
Thats because JS had buttons on the wheel to control the dagger foil pitch. A button to go forward, a button to go back. Its no secret. Barker had it too, in some form...

The point is they had humans controlling the pitch, not a computer.

 

βhyde

Super Anarchist
7,738
1,421
Beside Myself
Just one question, in I think the last race, JS pressed a button on steering wheel and boom Oracle was on the foils?
Yes, of course he did. In fact, I've seen the button myself. It is actually labeled "Foil-O-Matic ON/OFF." I'm surprised that a none of the thousands of people that have seen the video and the boat in person never mentioned it. It is clear as day and has a big pile of wires running out of it to a very discreet black box, labeled SAS, mounted under one of the pedestal grinders. From the box, a bunch of hydraulic tubes, labeled "TO/FROM Foil," run forward in each hull and another set of wires labeled "TO/FROM Herbie" go towards the wing. Other than that, the wheel looks pretty much like every other wheel.

 

ProaSailor

Super Anarchist
5,925
702
Oregon
Firstly, both Coutts and Tom Speer have stated clearly that there was no Stability Augmentation System used on Oracle.

The rumours regarding a Stability Augmentation System originated on the Facebook page of a kiwi called Paul Wiggans https://www.facebook.../paul.wiggans.3, a mechanical engineer. It appears to have been based on speculation only with no inside knowledge of what systems Oracle actually used.
They had something, that much is certain. Whether it was an SAS or something else, they had something which resulted in contributing to the massive improvement throughout the regatta. No amount of plain crew-work improvement could account for the turnaround we saw with OR.

I also dispute that OR's magic piece of tech was first mentioned by that guy on 26 Sept. He may have surmised the SAS part, but the fact ETNZ was writing to the MC in late August shows people either knew or had good indication something of this sort was being worked on.

Similarly, Coutts did not say OR didn't have some magical piece of kit, he just said they did not have a self-adjusting system because that would be illegal (or words to that effect).

>It was then circulated to a bunch of gullible journos (including Clean) who were desperate to find a scapegoat for TNZ's loss. As a result it's now widely believed by the NZ public that Oracle won the Americas Cup by cheating.
Nonsense. Most people I know accept the result and are not going around saying or suggesting OR cheated in the finals. What is probably widely thought is that where someone has shown themselves to be cheats on a number of occasions there should be extra effort put in by the authorities to make sure nothing amiss goes on in the future. I think this sentiment would be consistent around the yachting world, not confined to NZ.

People want to be able to trust the Measurement Committee but these are the same people who missed, for over a year, blatant cheating where you'd think there might have been a little more checks in place. Easier said than done for sure but so far as the AC goes, people don't quite realise - nor would they be happy to hear - that the measurement of the boats is not all that comprehensive. They check some stuff but leave the rest to the integrity of the team. That is where the gap between what reality and perception grew so wide. That in-itself is a failing of the measurement system and how they explain it to the public (or don't as is the case).

It's a sad indictment of how social media can shape national opinion.
Agreed, except for the part about national opinion in this particular instance. Only conspiracy theory-prone people are going around saying OR cheated.

I am disappointed for OR in some ways because their ACWS cheating will always cast a poor light over their attitude and actions throughout the entire AC cycle and, especially their contempt for their competitors who were some of the only reasons this AC was of any interest at all. A better way to have managed the whole thing would have been to make it publicly known that the MC would scrutineer all boats far more thoroughly for the AC because of public perception - and that they would be re-scrutinised immediately afterwards also. By not doing doing that the organisers (i.e. ultimately Oracle) have left question-marks hanging there forever.

Most importantly for Oracle is the future implications of this all. It will have a direct impact on potential entrants to the next cup. Such was the negativity surrounding the honesty and integrity of aspects of the way the cup was run teams will be disinclined to enter under anything less than a completely revamped protocol in which the challengers have a much bigger say. Unless Oracle cedes to that they will be looking idly at their feet for the next few years. They defended the cup but will be regarded as relatively untrustworthy by the few key people around the world who are capable of pulling challenges together.
Slander and hypocrisy. Your whole post suggests cheating, yet you deny you believe it? This kind of shit is getting tiresome.

 

Groucho Marx

Anarchist
842
217
auckland, nz
Well, if the proven and convicted AC45 cheaters say the SAS on the AC72's is legal ... so be it. They and the MC can be trusted, right?

BUT this has gone too far. Next generation (if such a thing occurs) will have devices somewhat like F1 tried then outlawed ... because it removes human skills and interest. I mean we watch sailing (and most other sports) to observe hyper- humans - not Frankenstein remote controlled boredom.

 
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bob202

Anarchist
525
26
Slander and hypocrisy. Your whole post suggests cheating, yet you deny you believe it? This kind of shit is getting tiresome.
Huh? Learn to read muppet. Oracle did cheat in the ACWS on at least 5 known, proven occasions and additionally were earlier penalised for spying. For that reason their conduct throughout the entire cup when it comes to areas of honesty should be viewed with extra scrutiny because not doing so has offered all those people with no evidence of cheating the ideal conditions they need to build their conspiracy theories. Oracle themselves should have made this happen for the integrity of the cup.

The manner in which the cup ended with all sorts of discussion of secret devices only fuelled speculation so it was incumbent on the organiser to do as much as practical to demonstrate to the public (who aren't overly bothered with actual details) that Oracle had been under increased scrutiny with regards to their AC boat for the specific reason of public perception. This would have cut most of the silly conspiracy-type theories off at the knees before they ever gained any following.

I have seen plenty of "they cheated bla bla" claims online - none of which hold up to much scrutiny (nor basic logic in most cases) but the AC management organisation did the reputation of the cup no favours whatsoever by not addressing that fact by actively, publicly ensuring everyone knew the boat was completely legit. Instead they just let them race which is, in effect, the same thing to those who understand the measurement process but not so to the majority of the audience who go "how do we know it was legal?"

The thing that matters in the public perception here is not what can or cannot be proved - rather how to satisfy the customer that OR were more closely watched because of their poor recent history (not to mention the repeated public refusal to show any contrition or acceptance of wrongdoing as the International Jury ruled) when it came to sporting integrity.

For what it's worth the capabilities of the Measurement Committee were also found wanting in the ACWS insofar as the public perception is concerned. People rightly wanted to know why, if the boats were all supposed to be the same, they were basically never checked except when damage/repairs occurred. To sailors is seems perfectly normal to have an honour system in place but once the ACWS cheating stuff came out, that system seemed quite inadequate in hindsight. That same MC then ran the measurement process for the AC and, in my opinion, more should have been made about the process and rigours that went into it - if only for the sake of public perception.

As it stands many people still think OR cheated somehow - and yet they have no evidence whatsoever. Why? Because it likely never existed, because the boat was fine. Neither OR or the MC look better for the proliferation of the allegations - especially because the crazier the conspiracy theory the more the people who believe it are active in spreading it around - which can only be a disincentive to teams wishing to enter, sponsors thinking of getting involved and to AC fans. It was poor management of the situation by the race management imo.

 
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Brian Weslake

Super Anarchist
1,510
0
Well, if the proven and convicted AC45 cheaters say the SAS on the AC72's is legal ... so be it.
No, they didn't have a Stability Augmentation System that was judged legal. They didn't have a Stability Augmentation System at all.

They had a daggerboard rake adjustment system that used a servo, and was set using buttons or a lever. It was controlled by the most powerful computer on the planet, a human brain. Or as Werner Von Braun once said, the only computer that can be mass produced by unskilled labour.

 

Francis Vaughan

Super Anarchist
Seems Dirk has done some rabid conspiracy theorists a massive favour. Now that OTUSA are "convicted cheaters" it is a forgone conclusion that there was a SAS.

This whole argument is rich ground for just about every logical fallacy that exists.

FallaciesPosterHigherRes.jpg


 
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