This Non-Violent Stuff Will Get You Killed

[Pertinacious Tom]

Oh. Try reading the topic post, including links, and you won't be as confused. Perhaps Cobb chose that title with more in mind than King's assassination.

I do note that you are not interested in answering my question or addressing my point about carry laws.

That point conflates shall-issue CCW opponents with all gun owners and pacifists, even racists. Since I am certain that is pile of malarkey, I have no interest in debating it.
The only thing that interested me was what this had to do with the King assassination. It's now clear that was simply some indulging in a little constitutional throat-clearing.

This post is confusing and makes me suspect you don't know the definition of "conflate." I asked a simple question about whether "because I felt like it" was a valid reason to deny a permit. Do you believe it was?

I was wondering why you were first to bring up the King assassination. You were indulging in constitutional throat clearing? I don't know what that means. Care to explain further?

 

[Mark K]

Oh. Try reading the topic post, including links, and you won't be as confused. Perhaps Cobb chose that title with more in mind than King's assassination.

I do note that you are not interested in answering my question or addressing my point about carry laws.

That point conflates shall-issue CCW opponents with all gun owners and pacifists, even racists. Since I am certain that is pile of malarkey, I have no interest in debating it.
The only thing that interested me was what this had to do with the King assassination. It's now clear that was simply some indulging in a little constitutional throat-clearing.

This post is confusing and makes me suspect you don't know the definition of "conflate." I asked a simple question about whether "because I felt like it" was a valid reason to deny a permit. Do you believe it was?

I was wondering why you were first to bring up the King assassination. You were indulging in constitutional throat clearing? I don't know what that means. Care to explain further?

It means "meaningless, irrelevant babble".

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

Oh. Try reading the topic post, including links, and you won't be as confused. Perhaps Cobb chose that title with more in mind than King's assassination.

I do note that you are not interested in answering my question or addressing my point about carry laws.

That point conflates shall-issue CCW opponents with all gun owners and pacifists, even racists. Since I am certain that is pile of malarkey, I have no interest in debating it.
The only thing that interested me was what this had to do with the King assassination. It's now clear that was simply some indulging in a little constitutional throat-clearing.

This post is confusing and makes me suspect you don't know the definition of "conflate." I asked a simple question about whether "because I felt like it" was a valid reason to deny a permit. Do you believe it was?

I was wondering why you were first to bring up the King assassination. You were indulging in constitutional throat clearing? I don't know what that means. Care to explain further?

It means "meaningless, irrelevant babble".

Well, that does explain your questioning a claim that no one was making about a subject no one was discussing. I figured it was just an irrelevant distraction, but I still fail to understand how you were being "constitutional" when you did it.

 

[Mark K]

Oh. Try reading the topic post, including links, and you won't be as confused. Perhaps Cobb chose that title with more in mind than King's assassination.

I do note that you are not interested in answering my question or addressing my point about carry laws.

That point conflates shall-issue CCW opponents with all gun owners and pacifists, even racists. Since I am certain that is pile of malarkey, I have no interest in debating it.
The only thing that interested me was what this had to do with the King assassination. It's now clear that was simply some indulging in a little constitutional throat-clearing.

This post is confusing and makes me suspect you don't know the definition of "conflate." I asked a simple question about whether "because I felt like it" was a valid reason to deny a permit. Do you believe it was?

I was wondering why you were first to bring up the King assassination. You were indulging in constitutional throat clearing? I don't know what that means. Care to explain further?

It means "meaningless, irrelevant babble".

Well, that does explain your questioning a claim that no one was making about a subject no one was discussing. I figured it was just an irrelevant distraction, but I still fail to understand how you were being "constitutional" when you did it.

The article discussed King.

 

[warbird]

Does anyone want to guess at the reason Martin Luther King's concealed weapons permit was denied?

I already know the answer, but will entertain guesses for a while before revealing it.

Was it too difficult for him to get a photo ID, being black and all?

Photography was black and white then, to hard to get a positive ID.

 

[Remodel]

May issue, shall issue, will issue, won't issue, could issue, can't issue, might issue ...

Concealed Carry is going to erode the Second Amendment because a right doesn't require permission from someone if you've retained your rights, either guaranteed or not. You concealed carry nuts are going to do it to yourselves and you'll have nobody to blame but yourselves.

And yeah, I get that some states have CC without permit, and others allow OC but some condition it, etc., etc.. Go blame the anti-nutters, go blame the politicians, go blame everyone but yourselves. If you can't feel comfortable with your firearm displayed openly then you shouldn't be carrying a weapon, that's my opinion, insult away, if I hear something new I'll let you know, otherwise, my silence indicates your repetition.

Have you seen the open carry advocates? I'm sorry, but that is some scary shit. I like guns, and support the 2nd amendment. but when a group of scruffily dressed guys men come wondering into the mall - from different entrances and at the same time - packing assault rifles, I'm shouting "Gun!" and calling the cops - unless I decide to take advantage of my concealed carried 2nd amendment rights. ALA Sarah P.

 

[Guest]

May issue, shall issue, will issue, won't issue, could issue, can't issue, might issue ...

Concealed Carry is going to erode the Second Amendment because a right doesn't require permission from someone if you've retained your rights, either guaranteed or not. You concealed carry nuts are going to do it to yourselves and you'll have nobody to blame but yourselves.

And yeah, I get that some states have CC without permit, and others allow OC but some condition it, etc., etc.. Go blame the anti-nutters, go blame the politicians, go blame everyone but yourselves. If you can't feel comfortable with your firearm displayed openly then you shouldn't be carrying a weapon, that's my opinion, insult away, if I hear something new I'll let you know, otherwise, my silence indicates your repetition.

Have you seen the open carry advocates? I'm sorry, but that is some scary shit. I like guns, and support the 2nd amendment. but when a group of scruffily dressed guys men come wondering into the mall - from different entrances and at the same time - packing assault rifles, I'm shouting "Gun!" and calling the cops - unless I decide to take advantage of my concealed carried 2nd amendment rights. ALA Sarah P.

I agree with that as well. There is a time and place for OC. Walking around the mall with a rifle slung over your shoulder ain't it. Makes the natives restless.

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

May issue, shall issue, will issue, won't issue, could issue, can't issue, might issue ...

Concealed Carry is going to erode the Second Amendment because a right doesn't require permission from someone if you've retained your rights, either guaranteed or not. You concealed carry nuts are going to do it to yourselves and you'll have nobody to blame but yourselves.

And yeah, I get that some states have CC without permit, and others allow OC but some condition it, etc., etc.. Go blame the anti-nutters, go blame the politicians, go blame everyone but yourselves. If you can't feel comfortable with your firearm displayed openly then you shouldn't be carrying a weapon, that's my opinion, insult away, if I hear something new I'll let you know, otherwise, my silence indicates your repetition.

Have you seen the open carry advocates? I'm sorry, but that is some scary shit. I like guns, and support the 2nd amendment. but when a group of scruffily dressed guys men come wondering into the mall - from different entrances and at the same time - packing assault rifles, I'm shouting "Gun!" and calling the cops - unless I decide to take advantage of my concealed carried 2nd amendment rights. ALA Sarah P.

They're less scary if they carry fishing rods.

 

[slatfatf]

May issue, shall issue, will issue, won't issue, could issue, can't issue, might issue ...

Concealed Carry is going to erode the Second Amendment because a right doesn't require permission from someone if you've retained your rights, either guaranteed or not. You concealed carry nuts are going to do it to yourselves and you'll have nobody to blame but yourselves.

And yeah, I get that some states have CC without permit, and others allow OC but some condition it, etc., etc.. Go blame the anti-nutters, go blame the politicians, go blame everyone but yourselves. If you can't feel comfortable with your firearm displayed openly then you shouldn't be carrying a weapon, that's my opinion, insult away, if I hear something new I'll let you know, otherwise, my silence indicates your repetition.

Have you seen the open carry advocates? I'm sorry, but that is some scary shit. I like guns, and support the 2nd amendment. but when a group of scruffily dressed guys men come wondering into the mall - from different entrances and at the same time - packing assault rifles, I'm shouting "Gun!" and calling the cops - unless I decide to take advantage of my concealed carried 2nd amendment rights. ALA Sarah P.

Mike is addicted to telling other people they are wrong. Whatever position allows him to tell the most people, the most often, they are wrong is the one he is going to take. That is why he says things like we should only allow OC, or that the police are violating the BoR by checking houses in Boston when the bombers were on the loose, or that we are all violating federal law by not posting with our full names, etc. etc. etc. Arguing with him just gives him more opportunities for a fix.

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

Interesting review of Negroes and the Gun: The Black Tradition of Arms

Frederick Douglass counseled, “A good revolver, a steady hand and a determination to shoot,” as a way for former slaves to counter the man-hunters who attempted to seize blacks who had escaped to the North. Free state blacks often resisted and repelled incursions of slavers who came to reclaim what was then legally viewed as lost property. Armed groups of black men assembled at times to interdict slavers. Harriet Tubman of Underground Railroad fame was well known for carrying firearms and is often depicted rifle in hand. Many white southerners could not abide the idea of armed, independent black voters. This too much resembled true citizenship.

...

The storied NAACP enters the picture as a major player in legal cases involving armed self-defense by blacks, defending (unsuccessfully) WWI veteran Sgt. Edgar Caldwell for using his service revolver to kill a train conductor and wound a motorman who had been trying to stomp him to death after he resisted being thrown out of the white passenger section. Johnson presents more cases than can be recounted here, some virtually municipal in scale. In Elaine, Arkansas a white deputy was shot dead after he fired into a group of Negro farmers, veterans, who had formed a farmers union. In the ensuing violence, the governor mobilized troops, deputies roamed the countryside, resulting in 5 white and 25 black casualties. Murder indictments in the “scores” for the blacks were followed by kangaroo trials, some only an hour long. Eventually, with NAACP help, at the SCOTUS level of appeal the convictions were reversed. Justice Holmes justified the reversal on the grounds that the trials were merely an extension of mob violence. In Detroit, NAACP brought famous litigator Clarence Darrow into the Ossian Sweet case. Sweet, a dentist, along with friends and relatives, had been indicted for murder after a white mob attacked the house that he had purchased in an all white neighborhood on Detroit’s east side. Threats had been made and Sweet and friends armed themselves. Shots were fired and afterward a white man lay dead. The prosecutor’s office tried to present the case as incidence of armed Negroes firing on a peaceful community. In court, Darrow pointed out that prosecutors had called up a mob of eyewitnesses to testify there was no mob outside the house. After an initial mistrial Sweet was eventually acquitted.

...

Of course the big problem to NAACP and black community leaders was balancing a non-violent political movement with the needs of personal home and self-defense. Non-violence wasn’t an effective political tactic for the dead. But neither was retaliatory violence good for the movement. The notion of armed aggressive black freedom fighters was more than enough to incite an unwinnable race war, and at the least could reverse progress and good will hard earned over the years. Hence the public commitment of Civil Rights Movement leadership to non-violence while privately their homes and sometimes their persons bristled with guns. It was a balancing act between political symbolism and survival.

...

Back in the 19th Century, journalist/social commentator and provocative black essayist Ida B. Wells wrote: “The Winchester rifle should have a place of honor in every black home. The more the Afro-American yields and cringes and begs, the more he is insulted, outraged and lynched.”

Unlike most professors Johnson knows whereof he writes when it comes to firearms. In an apt analogy he shows that the Winchester repeating level action rifle was the “assault weapon” of its time, being capable of a high rate of fire and easily reloadable. I know from personal conversations with Professor Johnson in the context of academic conferences (e.g., last year’s Second Amendment Symposium at Fordham Law School on that island of antigun sentiment known as Manhattan) that he owns and delights in an old Winchester .351 caliber rifle from 1907 or so. He enjoys showing antigun academic acquaintances that the idea of a semiautomatic so-called assault rifle has been around for a long time, and is not some new satanic invention causing havoc on society, but has long been part of the healthy social order. In the same way the Winchester rifle became a useful, freedom-preserving part of the emergent social order of the South, the Black tradition of arms.

 

[A guy in the Chesapeake]

May issue, shall issue, will issue, won't issue, could issue, can't issue, might issue ...

Concealed Carry is going to erode the Second Amendment because a right doesn't require permission from someone if you've retained your rights, either guaranteed or not. You concealed carry nuts are going to do it to yourselves and you'll have nobody to blame but yourselves.

And yeah, I get that some states have CC without permit, and others allow OC but some condition it, etc., etc.. Go blame the anti-nutters, go blame the politicians, go blame everyone but yourselves. If you can't feel comfortable with your firearm displayed openly then you shouldn't be carrying a weapon, that's my opinion, insult away, if I hear something new I'll let you know, otherwise, my silence indicates your repetition.

I understand your point, but, the very real fact is that the mere presence of a weapon greatly upsets some folks. Consideration and prudence would suggest that taking a small action to avoid this unintentional upset is a good thing.

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

Does race shape Americans' passion for guns?

 

[Ease the sheet.]

May issue, shall issue, will issue, won't issue, could issue, can't issue, might issue ...

Concealed Carry is going to erode the Second Amendment because a right doesn't require permission from someone if you've retained your rights, either guaranteed or not. You concealed carry nuts are going to do it to yourselves and you'll have nobody to blame but yourselves.

And yeah, I get that some states have CC without permit, and others allow OC but some condition it, etc., etc.. Go blame the anti-nutters, go blame the politicians, go blame everyone but yourselves. If you can't feel comfortable with your firearm displayed openly then you shouldn't be carrying a weapon, that's my opinion, insult away, if I hear something new I'll let you know, otherwise, my silence indicates your repetition.

Have you seen the open carry advocates? I'm sorry, but that is some scary shit. I like guns, and support the 2nd amendment. but when a group of scruffily dressed guys men come wondering into the mall - from different entrances and at the same time - packing assault rifles, I'm shouting "Gun!" and calling the cops - unless I decide to take advantage of my concealed carried 2nd amendment rights. ALA Sarah P.

I agree with that as well. There is a time and place for OC. Walking around the mall with a rifle slung over your shoulder ain't it. Makes the natives restless.

If you live where concealed carry is widespread, wouldn't you expect everyone to have a gun? I don't see why open carry would make the natives more restless than concealed carry.

 

[Raz'r]

in a CC environment, everyone SHOULD have a gun. Life is scary out there. Ebola!

 

[A guy in the Chesapeake]

May issue, shall issue, will issue, won't issue, could issue, can't issue, might issue ...

Concealed Carry is going to erode the Second Amendment because a right doesn't require permission from someone if you've retained your rights, either guaranteed or not. You concealed carry nuts are going to do it to yourselves and you'll have nobody to blame but yourselves.

And yeah, I get that some states have CC without permit, and others allow OC but some condition it, etc., etc.. Go blame the anti-nutters, go blame the politicians, go blame everyone but yourselves. If you can't feel comfortable with your firearm displayed openly then you shouldn't be carrying a weapon, that's my opinion, insult away, if I hear something new I'll let you know, otherwise, my silence indicates your repetition.

Have you seen the open carry advocates? I'm sorry, but that is some scary shit. I like guns, and support the 2nd amendment. but when a group of scruffily dressed guys men come wondering into the mall - from different entrances and at the same time - packing assault rifles, I'm shouting "Gun!" and calling the cops - unless I decide to take advantage of my concealed carried 2nd amendment rights. ALA Sarah P.

I agree with that as well. There is a time and place for OC. Walking around the mall with a rifle slung over your shoulder ain't it. Makes the natives restless.

If you live where concealed carry is widespread, wouldn't you expect everyone to have a gun? I don't see why open carry would make the natives more restless than concealed carry.

It's simple, actually: There are large numbers of our population who have been conditioned to think that the presence of a firearm is indicative of sinister intent. These folks have been taught to fear firearms, and those who have them. Thus, the sight of a gun carried in the open is in and of itself enough to upset people who have been taught to think this way.

I like to conduct myself in a way that doesn't cause unnecessary upset to anyone. Most courteous folks do the same. My $.02 - your thoughts?

 

[Raz'r]

It ain't the "media's" fault for reporting the news. Watch any local news channel. Somewhere in the first couple of minutes will be a story of someone being shot. A local story. It happens so often it's not national news unless it's 5 or more being killed at once, or someone famous.

It happens so often its barely news. Like car crashes, or heart attacks.

In Israel open carry is common, and it's not intimidating because it's so common. It would be best to have all the CC folks OC. take away the fear.

 

[A guy in the Chesapeake]

It ain't the "media's" fault for reporting the news. Watch any local news channel. Somewhere in the first couple of minutes will be a story of someone being shot. A local story. It happens so often it's not national news unless it's 5 or more being killed at once, or someone famous.

It happens so often its barely news. Like car crashes, or heart attacks.

In Israel open carry is common, and it's not intimidating because it's so common. It would be best to have all the CC folks OC. take away the fear.

I used to take a .22 rifle to school (late 70s) for Rod&Gun club activities. It was common for high-schoolers to have a shotgun in the car/truck to go squirrel hunting after school. Many folks stored their rifles in racks in the back window of their pickup truck. Nobody thought a thing about it. If we could get back to the point that people didn't have reason to fear the crazies, I'd be tickled.

We can probably agree that we won't get there again anytime soon, while discussing why that is.

 

[Raz'r]

I did the same. Was very common in the fall to get off the bus, grab a shotgun and walk the back 10 acres. Pheasant and duck.

When I hit 16 the shotgun was in the trunk.

I believe we've confused sub-urban with rural gun use/myths. What's common and matter of fact in a rural locale, is pretty f-in scary in a sub-urban locale. Face it, Mr Smith doesn't need a shotgun to walk the back 2000 sq ft. A gun is a one-trick pony in a sub-urban locale, useful for killing people (whether in aggression or self-defense) whereas in a rural locale it's just another tool in the toolbox.

sub-urban is both the urban and the suburbs.

 

[plchacker]

If discrimination is allowed, discrimination will take place. Also, not necessarily in the manor intended. That has been the crux of the gun laws from day one. The prime example is the term assault rifle. That is a name that really describes form and not function. Yet I could make a solid argument that a Thompson Contender chambered in .416 Rigby is a much more dangerous weapon than a Ruger 10/22. As noted several times in these threads, a 10/22 meets the requirements of the term assault rifle. The Thompson Center would not.

 

[plchacker]

I did the same. Was very common in the fall to get off the bus, grab a shotgun and walk the back 10 acres. Pheasant and duck.

When I hit 16 the shotgun was in the trunk.

I believe we've confused sub-urban with rural gun use/myths. What's common and matter of fact in a rural locale, is pretty f-in scary in a sub-urban locale. Face it, Mr Smith doesn't need a shotgun to walk the back 2000 sq ft. A gun is a one-trick pony in a sub-urban locale, useful for killing people (whether in aggression or self-defense) whereas in a rural locale it's just another tool in the toolbox.

sub-urban is both the urban and the suburbs.

I've seen several snakes in my yard this year. I don't generally kill every snake I see, but I certainly would not want a rattlesnake in my yard.