This Non-Violent Stuff Will Get You Killed

Pertinacious Tom

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random said:
I got the idea from things like this,

"Smith & Wesson, the storied American gun company, is today a proud supporter of the NRA.

In 2012, the company signed on to a four-year sponsorship of one of the NRA’s promotional programs. And its new chief executive, James Debney, was inducted into the NRA’s Golden Ring of Freedom — the highest ranking of donors, reserved for those who donate $1 million or more. It comes with a golden jacket with the NRA insignia on the breast pocket.

In a statement hailing the award, Wayne LaPierre, the NRA’s executive vice president, said: “Smith & Wesson is a valued corporate partner in NRA’s fight to preserve the Second Amendment and we are grateful for their dedication to our shared American values.”

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/government-elections-politics/gunned-down/what-happened-when-a-major-gun-company-crossed-the-nra/
That cite doesn't show the NRA selling guns, let alone "to anyone" as you claimed.

 

Pertinacious Tom

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random said:
Fuck Tom, seriously, you play dumb badly. The NRA has to get money from somewhere other than membership. Large donations bias the place in the same way as the political donation do. Completely corrupt.
I still don't believe that the NRA gets money by selling guns. Dealers and manufacturers do.

Since you're not a member, I'm not sure why you care about donations and how they "bias the place." Corrupt? What do you mean?

I went to the Friends of the NRA banquet here the other night. I saw items donated by businesses large and small, local and national, being auctioned off to raise money to support range facilities and buy safety equipment for local shooting groups. Looked to me like people cooperating to achieve a goal and nothing about it seemed corrupt. Explain why it was.

 

Pertinacious Tom

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,,,

When gun-rights people think making the assassination of famous people a case for looser gun laws,,,

,,,
Cite, please.

See thread title.

Woudn't be shocked if they had strident racists on the board of directors of the NRA trying to scare people about the scary black man ,,,
:rolleyes:
Google "Ted Nugent". re: "Dead or in jail" "Subhuman mongrel" ect .

Your standards are funny...

Probably because he was black. As a member in good standing of the board of directors of the NRA says, "subhuman", and nobody wants animals to have guns.
MLK's permit was "probably" denied because he was black, but Nugent's rants definitely mean millions of NRA members and supporters are Aryan Nations associates who just want armed mobs here. But only armed white mobs! And that's the only thing the NRA is about!

Google "stop and frisk" and NAACP and Bloomberg and you'll find out what I've already told you: the NRA are not the ones who want to disarm black people. Bloomberg is the guy who understands the need to throw them against the wall. Gun controllers want to keep the guns away from the animals, just as they always have.

If I ask several more times, I may get you to admit what the NAACP loudly proclaims: that stop and frisk is a racist gun control policy. Not sure I have the patience. The topic post of this thread contained the question you avoided until allowing that racism was "probably" a factor in MLK's carry permit denial. You seem to have thought that question was a statement that a concealed weapon is a perfect defense against any and all threats. It wasn't.

 
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jocal505

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Gee, Tom, thanks for the long argument containing nothing, about nothing.

I'm not sure what your point is. But chaos is the result of guns in the black community.

The fact that MLK got dissed on da gun permit has a grain of truth in it. Wonderful.

Again, big deal.

Are you saying that guns are a race equalizer? That "shall carry" is an anti-racism mechanism or champion?

State your distortion, whatever it is, clearly for us.

But the fact is that guns have devastated the black communities. Guns aren't working out there. Got it?

Enough already. STFU about how guns will protect the non-violent, MLK, or blacks.

Race, Based on available data from 1980 to 2008—[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]

(Data from FBI UCR and SHR reports.)

n Blacks were disproportionately represented as both homicide victims and off enders. Th e victimization rate for blacks (27.8 per 100,000) was 6 times higher than the rate for whites (4.5 per 100,000). The off ending rate for blacks (34.4 per 100,000) was almost 8 times higher than the rate for whites (4.5 per 100,000) (table 1).

P11

Trends by race

Blacks were disproportionately represented among homicide victims and offenders.

n In 2008, the homicide victimization rate for blacks (19.6 homicides per 100,000) was 6 times higher than the rate for

whites (3.3 homicides per 100,000).

n The victimization rate for blacks peaked in the early 1990s, reaching a high of 39.4 homicides per 100,000 in 1991 (figure 17).

n After 1991, the victimization rate for blacks fell until 1999, when it stabilized near 20 homicides per 100,000.

n In 2008, the off ending rate for blacks (24.7 off enders per 100,000) was 7 times higher than the rate for whites (3.4 off enders per 100,000) (figure 18).

n The off ending rate for blacks showed a similar pattern to the victimization rate, peaking in the early 1990s at a high of 51.1 off enders per 100,000 in 1991.

n After 1991, the off ending rate for blacks declined until it reached 24 per 100,000 in 2004. Th e rate has since fluctuated, increasing to 28.4 off enders per 100,000 in 2006 before falling again to 24.7 off enders per 100,000 in 2008.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf
 
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jocal505

moderate, informed, ex-gunowner
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random said:
You are saying that Gun Manufacturers are not in control of the NRA ... "Golden Ring of Freedom" and the like. Still playing dumb Tom.

So this is bullshit then ...

"Throughout its 142-year history, the National Rifle Association has portrayed itself as an advocate for the individual gun owner’s Second Amendment rights. In turn, the NRA relied on those gun owners, especially its 4 million or so members, to pressure lawmakers into carrying out its anti-gun control agenda.

In the last two decades, however, the deep-pocketed NRA has increasingly relied on the support of another constituency: the $12-billion-a-year gun industry, made up of manufacturers and sellers of firearms, ammunition and related wares. That alliance was sealed in 2005, when Congress, after heavy NRA lobbying, approved a measure that gave gunmakers and gun distributors broad, and unprecedented, immunity from a wave of liability lawsuits related to gun violence in America’s cities."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/11/nra-gun-control-firearms-industry-ties_n_2434142.html
Tom took his answer to the NRA Remodel thread. His answer was lightweight: a series of untruthful statements.

Tom Ray, on 29 Mar 2015 - 01:44 AM, said:



Yes, pretty much each and every line that you quoted is BS.

(...)

The NRA's role as an advocate for individual gun owner's 2A rights is very recent indeed. Tell the truth. We have suffered 38 years of formidable legislation from the new NRA/ILA . (1977-2015).

They even tried to scuttle the Heller (then Parker) lawsuit specifically to avoid a big 2A confrontation at the Supreme Court.

This is another lie. CATO's Robert Levy, while sponsoring quasi-historical research in FL, considered six plaintiffs...then groomed Officer Heller.

It was only after that confrontation became inevitable that they became helpful in the pursuit of individual 2A rights.

Fiction, by Tom Ray. See Gura and LaPierre quotes, below. (They were divided, some even wanted to jump the gun early on a skeptical supreme court.)

[SIZE=8.4pt] [/SIZE]

The third sentence is unsupported...
Here is random's third sentence:

In the last two decades, however, the deep-pocketed NRA has increasingly relied on the support of another constituency: the $12-billion-a-year gun industry, made up of manufacturers and sellers of firearms, ammunition and related wares.


Plenty of "support" for the gun lobby's flow of money to the NRA available. This is well known.

WTF, Tom has read information on several of our forums exposing his lie.

Here's a black eye for Tom (facts, delivered by VPC research):

The report, Blood Money: How the Gun Industry Bankrolls the NRA, reveals that since 2005 contributions from gun industry "corporate partners" to the NRA total between $14.7 million and $38.9 million.

Total donations to the NRA from all "corporate partners" -- both gun industry and non-gun industry -- for the same time period total between $19.8 million and $52.6 million. The vast majority of funds -- 74 percent -- contributed to the NRA from "corporate partners" come from members of the firearms industry: companies involved in the manufacture or sale of firearms or shooting-related products.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-sugarmann/nra-receives-millions-fro_b_848727.html>
Tom Ray, on 29 Mar 2015 - 01:44 AM, said:They even tried to scuttle the Heller (then Parker) lawsuit specifically to avoid a big 2A confrontation at the Supreme Court.

A deceitful statement. The DOJ began supporting individual rights, while not enforcing, then mis-quoting the Emerson decision.

The Emerson DV Gun case

Ashcroft Deconstructed: This is easier said than done. It is an open secret that the unnamed litigation on the Second Amendment in question is United States v. Emerson, which now has been pending before the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit in New Orleans for more than a year. In Emerson, a federal judge in Texas, Sam R. Cummings, flouted more than a century of Supreme Court precedent to find that the defendant, under an active domestic violence restraining order that prevented him from possessing firearms, had his Second Amendment rights violated. In a textbook example of judicial overreaching, Cummings held that the prohibition on possession of firearms by persons under domestic violence restraining orders violated the Second Amendment and the due process clause of the Fifth Amendment.16

When turkey hunter Scalia came along, the ILA had the votes. ALEC considered Officer Heller among half a dozen plaintiffs. and prepared for six years for the SC case.

He does not participate in shooting sports, by the way.

Tom Ray, on 29 Mar 2015 - 01:44 AM, said:It was only after that confrontation became inevitable that they became helpful in the pursuit of individual 2A rights.

Gura and LaPierre expose that as a lie, Tom. From Wiki FFS:

[SIZE=9pt]Gura also stated that "the NRA was adamant about not wanting the Supreme Court to hear the case".[/SIZE][SIZE=8.4pt][53][/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]These concerns were based on NRA lawyers' assessment that the justices at the time the case was filed might reach an unfavorable decision.[/SIZE][SIZE=8.4pt][54][/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Cato Institute[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt] senior fellow Robert Levy, co-counsel to the [/SIZE]Parker[SIZE=9pt] plaintiffs, has stated that the [/SIZE]Parker[SIZE=9pt] plaintiffs "faced repeated attempts by the NRA to derail the litigation."[/SIZE][SIZE=8.4pt][55][/SIZE][SIZE=9pt] He also stated that "The N.R.A.’s interference in this process set us back and almost killed the case. It was a very acrimonious relationship."[/SIZE][SIZE=8.4pt][6][/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Wayne LaPierre[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], the NRA's chief executive officer, confirmed the NRA's misgivings. "There was a real dispute on our side among the constitutional scholars about whether there was a majority of justices on the Supreme Court who would support the Constitution as written," Mr. LaPierre said.[/SIZE][SIZE=8.4pt][[/SIZE]citation needed[SIZE=8.4pt]][/SIZE]

 
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Pertinacious Tom

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...The fact that MLK got dissed on da gun permit has a grain of truth in it. Wonderful.

Again, big deal.

Are you saying that guns are a race equalizer? That "shall carry" is an anti-racism mechanism or champion?

State your distortion, whatever it is, clearly for us.

But the fact is that guns have devastated the black communities. Guns aren't working out there. Got it?

Enough already. STFU about how guns will protect the non-violent, MLK, or blacks.

Race, Based on available data from 1980 to 2008—[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]

(Data from FBI UCR and SHR reports.)

n Blacks were disproportionately represented as both homicide victims and off enders. Th e victimization rate for blacks (27.8 per 100,000) was 6 times higher than the rate for whites (4.5 per 100,000). The off ending rate for blacks (34.4 per 100,000) was almost 8 times higher than the rate for whites (4.5 per 100,000) (table 1).

P11

Trends by race

Blacks were disproportionately represented among homicide victims and offenders.

n In 2008, the homicide victimization rate for blacks (19.6 homicides per 100,000) was 6 times higher than the rate for

whites (3.3 homicides per 100,000).

n The victimization rate for blacks peaked in the early 1990s, reaching a high of 39.4 homicides per 100,000 in 1991 (figure 17).

n After 1991, the victimization rate for blacks fell until 1999, when it stabilized near 20 homicides per 100,000.

n In 2008, the off ending rate for blacks (24.7 off enders per 100,000) was 7 times higher than the rate for whites (3.4 off enders per 100,000) (figure 18).

n The off ending rate for blacks showed a similar pattern to the victimization rate, peaking in the early 1990s at a high of 51.1 off enders per 100,000 in 1991.

n After 1991, the off ending rate for blacks declined until it reached 24 per 100,000 in 2004. Th e rate has since fluctuated, increasing to 28.4 off enders per 100,000 in 2006 before falling again to 24.7 off enders per 100,000 in 2008.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf
I'm saying dat dissin' blacks on da permit because dey are black is racist and wrong. That government permits should not be issued nor denied on that basis. And that it's a big deal.

Otis McDonald lived under strict gun control (and a constant threat of violence from armed criminals) in Chicago and wanted to defend himself. I'm glad the system wasn't rigged to tell him to STFU just because he was black.

If guns are causing the violence levels you cite, I assume the gun ownership rate must be much higher among blacks than whites. Any stats on that subject?

 

Pertinacious Tom

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Did I lose it when I asked you about jocal's cherry-picking article that claimed a sharp increase in FL gun murders by picking the lowest year in recent memory as a starting point?

Sorry, but the fact that you could see no problem with that tells me all I need to know.

If the question came from a different messenger, would it be invalid? Seems to me that you and others think guns cause crime. OK, jocal has shown us the highest crime rates, so those should be associated with the highest gun ownership rates, right? Take another look at my picture from the FNRA banquet before answering.

 

Pertinacious Tom

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random said:
How about the totally bullshit image that you posted proudly for years and have not posted since your arse was reamed. So I'll have to do it for you.

You made it up. You cannot explain it. It is a complete fabrication of your imagination. What kind of dishonest fuck-wit would post this shit and attempt to confuse fellow sailors?

But you did. What the fuck does this mean? Shame on you.

brady-vs-census.jpg
It means that if you go to the Handgun Control Inc Brady Center site and look at their rankings of the best and worst state gun laws, then go to the US Census website and look at the states with the lowest and highest violent crime and murder rates, then (later, I modified the image at some point) you find estimated gun ownership rates by state, you can look to see how state gun laws and gun ownership rates affect violent crime and murder rates.

And they answer is: they don't.

States with strict gun laws and states with loose gun laws are among the ones with the lowest violent crime and murder rates. They're also among those with the highest rates. Gun control laws don't affect violent crime and murder rates one way or the other. The idea that we can arm everyone and all be safe from crime doesn't explain Arkansas, with high gun ownership, weak gun laws, and making the ten worst in violent crime and murder. The idea that we can pass gun laws to stop violent crime and murder doesn't explain Illinois, among other places.

The image is related to the question at hand, but I was hoping that someone reliable would post those gun ownership rate stats, since I seem to be disqualified.

Why don't you show us how it's done by the pros? Post estimated gun ownership rates for white and black Americans. Let's see if they correlate with jocal's stats above.

 
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jocal505

moderate, informed, ex-gunowner
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298
near Seattle, Wa
random said:
How about the totally bullshit image that you posted proudly for years and have not posted since your arse was reamed. So I'll have to do it for you.

You made it up. You cannot explain it. It is a complete fabrication of your imagination. What kind of dishonest fuck-wit would post this shit and attempt to confuse fellow sailors?

But you did. What the fuck does this mean? Shame on you.

brady-vs-census.jpg
It means that if you go to the Handgun Control Inc Brady Center site and look at their rankings of the best and worst state gun laws, then go to the US Census website and look at the states with the lowest and highest violent crime and murder rates, then (later, I modified the image at some point) you find estimated gun ownership rates by state, you can look to see how state gun laws and gun ownership rates affect violent crime and murder rates.

And they answer is: they don't.

States with strict gun laws and states with loose gun laws are among the ones with the lowest violent crime and murder rates. They're also among those with the highest rates. Gun control laws don't affect violent crime and murder rates one way or the other. The idea that we can arm everyone and all be safe from crime doesn't explain Arkansas, with high gun ownership, weak gun laws, and making the ten worst in violent crime and murder. The idea that we can pass gun laws to stop violent crime and murder doesn't explain Illinois, among other places.

The image is related to the question at hand, but I was hoping that someone reliable would post those gun ownership rate stats, since I seem to be disqualified.

Why don't you show us how it's done by the pros? Post estimated gun ownership rates for white and black Americans. Let's see if they correlate with jocal's stats above.
Tom . This is a castrophic failure.Certain statements are flawed, they are just viewpoints.

But the basis of your justification for Brady's best is so sloppy it is worthless.

What's more, your open defense of comparing violence stats to gun homicides is flat-out unacceptable to the standards of PA.

Check.

 
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jocal505

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(...crickets...for twelve hours...)

Tom, what would a statistician say about your work? random was once gracious, and let you save face, considering. However...

You are worse than I thought. You defend comparing violent crime rates to gun crimes? No wonder you can find such disparities.

Then, big surprise, you even conclude

you can look to see how state gun laws and gun ownership rates affect violent crime and murder rates.

And they answer is: they don't.
Priceless. YCMTSU.

I became the third person to call Tom out on this quaint behavior. He was using the general murder rates in Missouri, and comparing them to increased gun murders in MO (which increased 25% right after background checks were cancelled). In his next post, he claimed

Tom Ray, on 22 March 2015 - 01:33 PM, said: I was responding to a post distorting carefully massaged gun murder stats by citing the actual gun murder stats.
Do you see gun murders on his list?
[SIZE=14.6666669845581px]Missouri Crime Rates 1960 - 2010[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Index:[/SIZE]

Violent [SIZE=10pt]Crime[/SIZE]

Property [SIZE=10pt]Crime[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Murder[/SIZE]

Violent

[SIZE=13.3333330154419px]Forcible [/SIZE]Rape

Aggravated Robbery

Assault

Burglary

Vehicle [SIZE=10pt]Theft[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.3333330154419px]Theft[/SIZE]
WTF. Tom Ray's response was to disgracefully defended his dishonest, worthless statistical comparison with another lie. And he has defended the practice of dishonest statistical comparisons, directly, with random.

To be continued.

Gun mentality: we have moral slippage for guns, credibility slippage for guns, and now statistical comparisons can be compromised, for guns.

 
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Pertinacious Tom

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Since random won't show me how it's supposed to be done, maybe you can, jocal. Care to answer the question below?

I'd provide some stats myself, but you're obviously way better at it. Go ahead and show us how it should be done.

I'm saying dat dissin' blacks on da permit because dey are black is racist and wrong. That government permits should not be issued nor denied on that basis. And that it's a big deal.

Otis McDonald lived under strict gun control (and a constant threat of violence from armed criminals) in Chicago and wanted to defend himself. I'm glad the system wasn't rigged to tell him to STFU just because he was black.

If guns are causing the violence levels you cite, I assume the gun ownership rate must be much higher among blacks than whites. Any stats on that subject?
 
G

Guest

Guest
random said:
Now they just want to sell more ... to anyone, even making pink ones for little girls.

hello-kitty-pistol.jpg
Actually that is for BIG girls.... I knew a girl who competed in (and usually kicked the guy's assess) in sniper rifle competitions and she had little pink daises painted on her stock.

BTW - I think elle likes Hello Kitty, so its another of your disingenuous bullshit assumptions that thinks only little girls would like that. Elle, you here lurking?

 

Pertinacious Tom

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Black Panthers Encourage Firearms Proliferation

...Now Darren X says he wants black people to start feeling safe again when they walk along America’s streets.

“Our initiative is for black men and women to start arming themselves and for us to start patrolling our own communities. That way we have a visual, we have an eye on what is going on in our neighborhoods. So our mission is to arm every black man that can legally be armed throughout the Unites States of America,” he said....
It's Chief Justice Taney's nightmare come to life! The horror.
More proliferation.

SCLC Director urges blacks to arm themselves

The head of the Georgia chapter of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, founded by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. to promote nonviolent social change, on Tuesday advocated African-American families “exercise their Second Amendment rights” in response to recent police shootings of unarmed black men.
These people don't know what's good for blacks. Bloomberg does: throw 'em up against the wall and frisk 'em!

 

Pertinacious Tom

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We spend a lot of time together here. To aid our mutual understanding, and for the benefit of our guns in the USA, please give this post a careful read.

For the benefit of an important discussion, let's avoid personal attacks and spurious comments.

Gun Ownership Is Declining...So Why Is the Gun Lobby So Powerful?

March 25, 2015

by Bernie Horn

This post first appeared at Campaign for America’s Future.

...
Intelligent discussion from the SA Gun Club, if possible, is welcome.
Hmmm... following that link and links on the page, I got here.

In 2010-14, household firearms ownership was higher among households with white respondents (39.0%) than among those with black respondents (18.1%)(Table 4).

So if guns cause violence and whites own guns at more than twice the rate of blacks, how did jocal show at post 127 that the homicide rate among blacks is six times higher than among whites?

Maybe the gun ownership rate is not the problem?

 

A guy in the Chesapeake

Super Anarchist
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We spend a lot of time together here. To aid our mutual understanding, and for the benefit of our guns in the USA, please give this post a careful read.

For the benefit of an important discussion, let's avoid personal attacks and spurious comments.

Gun Ownership Is Declining...So Why Is the Gun Lobby So Powerful?

March 25, 2015

by Bernie Horn

This post first appeared at Campaign for America’s Future.

...
Intelligent discussion from the SA Gun Club, if possible, is welcome.
Hmmm... following that link and links on the page, I got here.

In 2010-14, household firearms ownership was higher among households with white respondents (39.0%) than among those with black respondents (18.1%)(Table 4).
So if guns cause violence and whites own guns at more than twice the rate of blacks, how did jocal show at post 127 that the homicide rate among blacks is six times higher than among whites?

Maybe the gun ownership rate is not the problem?
Shhhh - you know that your interpretation of those numbers is colored by NRA propaganda, and that anything you say on the subject simply can't be accepted.

 

Pertinacious Tom

Importunate Member
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Punta Gorda FL
random said:
We spend a lot of time together here. To aid our mutual understanding, and for the benefit of our guns in the USA, please give this post a careful read.

For the benefit of an important discussion, let's avoid personal attacks and spurious comments.

Gun Ownership Is Declining...So Why Is the Gun Lobby So Powerful?

March 25, 2015

by Bernie Horn

This post first appeared at Campaign for America’s Future.

...
Intelligent discussion from the SA Gun Club, if possible, is welcome.
Hmmm... following that link and links on the page, I got here.

In 2010-14, household firearms ownership was higher among households with white respondents (39.0%) than among those with black respondents (18.1%)(Table 4).
So if guns cause violence and whites own guns at more than twice the rate of blacks, how did jocal show at post 127 that the homicide rate among blacks is six times higher than among whites?

Maybe the gun ownership rate is not the problem?
It's because you strip out gun related deaths to only the categories that suit your twisted argument. Lot's more ways to die that homocide. Showing your racist side again.

..
Randoms' Law states that ... For every 21,000 additional guns sold one death a year will result.
I can't help the stats jocal posted. I was just commenting on them. If he stripped something out, scold him, not me. He asked that we avoid personal attacks, but I guess that's out the window in your book.

I still don't see how you've proven that selling guns (mostly to white people) is the cause of the elevated levels of violence among blacks that jocal posted about.

 

Pertinacious Tom

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Punta Gorda FL
random said:
Same old shit Tom. Just dissect it until you get the right result. If that division needs to be on race, that's ok with you. Comes across that you are racist. Blame all bad numbers on black people.
Questioning the placing of blame on gun ownership is not placing the blame elsewhere. It's questioning the placing of blame on ownership.

 

jocal505

moderate, informed, ex-gunowner
14,263
298
near Seattle, Wa
random said:
Same old shit Tom. Just dissect it until you get the right result. If that division needs to be on race, that's ok with you. Comes across that you are racist. Blame all bad numbers on black people.
Questioning the placing of blame on gun ownership is not placing the blame elsewhere. It's questioning the placing of blame on ownership.
IMO, you are not at peace with racial issues, Tom. That's based on several (incomplete) angles which YOU have presented, repeatedly.

The issues don't seem settled within yourself...angles of blamery are persistent...while you peddle more guns using a vague, two-sided racial presentation.

I'd like to be a fly on the wall during your family's dinner conversation.

 

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