Time on Time Scoring

Captain Snorin

New member
31
0
Our club is going to use ToT scoring this year. We plan on using the 3 B factors for light, medium and heavy air. We are wondering:

  • What wind speed should be attributed to Light, Medium and heavy?
  • How do you determine the strength? From the signal boat? Mast head reading?
  • When do you determine the wind strength? At the start? Mid race?
  • How do you select the B factor with a building or dying breeze?

Any knowledgeable guidance would be appreciated.

 

Somebody Else

a person of little consequence
7,679
845
PNW
It doesn't make a heck of a lot of difference.

In a VERY mixed fleet of PHRF beercanners, we don't think about it and just put in A=650 and B=520 for our 7-knot-wind 3-mile races. No one has ever complained about results. Truth is, most racers pretty much know how well they did without waiting for the scoring.

 

Pollination

Member
111
22
EC
It doesn't make a heck of a lot of difference.

In a VERY mixed fleet of PHRF beercanners, we don't think about it and just put in A=650 and B=520 for our 7-knot-wind 3-mile races. No one has ever complained about results. Truth is, most racers pretty much know how well they did without waiting for the scoring.
ToT can can provide unbalanced results.  For example, if the fleet starts in light air and one smart fast boat finishes in such conditions, then a front blows through or a huge pressure difference ensues, the rest of the fleet benefits from a horsepower increase. The guy (opps, I mean the X)  who won the start, caught every light air shift and crossed the line 1st get's penalized on ToT. Pure PHRF works best.  ORCi, IRC, IMS, IOR ....the Queen Rule of PHRF has and will watch them all fall by the wayside at the industries, owners and club committee''s  great expense.  Hey wait, what will the designers do with no new rules? 

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Somebody Else

a person of little consequence
7,679
845
PNW
ToT can can provide unbalanced results.  For example, if the fleet starts in light air and one smart fast boat finishes in such conditions, then a front blows through or a huge pressure difference ensues, the rest of the fleet benefits from a horsepower increase. The guy (opps, I mean the X)  who won the start, caught every light air shift and crossed the line 1st get's penalized on ToT. Pure PHRF works best.
ToT for the short races -- beercans. The changes in conditions are rarely radical.

ToD for anything longer.

 

Chimp too

Anarchist
747
364
Europe
Outside the US of A most of the world uses ToT quite happily for all races, mainly with single number scoring, and the sky hasn’t fallen in!

 

Remodel

Super Anarchist
10,312
919
None
ToT can can provide unbalanced results.  For example, if the fleet starts in light air and one smart fast boat finishes in such conditions, then a front blows through or a huge pressure difference ensues, the rest of the fleet benefits from a horsepower increase. The guy (opps, I mean the X)  who won the start, caught every light air shift and crossed the line 1st get's penalized on ToT. Pure PHRF works best.  ORCi, IRC, IMS, IOR ....the Queen Rule of PHRF has and will watch them all fall by the wayside at the industries, owners and club committee''s  great expense.  Hey wait, what will the designers do with no new rules? 
How does that differ from time on distance? The same thing happens when the wind fills in from behind and brings the fleet down you.

 

bgytr

Super Anarchist
5,071
676
How does that differ from time on distance? The same thing happens when the wind fills in from behind and brings the fleet down you.
Yup there is no equitable way to rate boats with changing conditions, unless you use a routing technique for each boat.  And even then, it's likely not completely fair.

 

F_L

Anarchist
832
159
Canyon Lake, TX
I don't understand what problem ToT is trying to solve. There is a free app for your phone that will give you leg distances. Every chase, RC boat should have access to GPS.

Our club tried ToT years ago and went back to ToD. 

 

bgytr

Super Anarchist
5,071
676
Tot versus ToD is not the problem here, it's PHRF.  Fortunately my region is moving on to ORC.  The small clubs will drag their feet as they are wont to do.
The vpp based rules are better with the exception of effective implementation.  Most local OAs have little interest in using the full capability to select appropriate ratings vs just using the GPH.  This was a problem in the implementation of IMS years ago.  If used correctly, the vpp rules are great.  If not, then why bother.

My preference is vpp instead of phrf for sure, but the OAs MUST get their heads in the game and use the vpp rules correctly.

 

Foredeck Shuffle

More of a Stoic Cynic, Anarchy Sounds Exhausting
That's an often over looked issue and yes, at least the larger clubs here are using appropriate ratings.

Similar problem with Portsmouth USPN, the smaller clubs never use the wind ratings which are what makes USPN work.  Rating dinghies with a single wind rating is a waste of time for the competitors.

 

Monkey

Super Anarchist
11,058
2,689
Tot versus ToD is not the problem here, it's PHRF.  Fortunately my region is moving on to ORC.  The small clubs will drag their feet as they are wont to do.
It is what it is. The problem with ORC for small club races is that most of the occasional/casual racers aren’t going to want to spend the time or money to deal with getting their boats measured. PHRF, while flawed in many ways, is a cheap and simple system to let us go play with our boats. 

 

Foredeck Shuffle

More of a Stoic Cynic, Anarchy Sounds Exhausting
It is what it is. The problem with ORC for small club races is that most of the occasional/casual racers aren’t going to want to spend the time or money to deal with getting their boats measured. PHRF, while flawed in many ways, is a cheap and simple system to let us go play with our boats. 
I moved from a town of large sailing to a small club.  What I've witnessed is a select few boats that have resorted to changing their boats without reporting it to PHRF and two volunteering on the PHRF boards until they get the rating they want, then leaving.  Several of the smarter sailors that have established OD's they can travel to events have taken their VPP information and compared it to the stated information in the wayward PHRF certs and their former OD VPP's and noted just how terrible they are.

We have specifically lost several boats, some didn't sell, they just no longer sail local, due to PHRF and its issues.  My wife and I were going to purchase a racer/cruiser but after seeing all of this and the frustration vented at the bar, we are in the market for a cruiser once I finish restoring a powerboat I started working on during COVID.  I used to race keelboats, not here.  It just looks stupid and PHRF is why.

 

Tcatman

Super Anarchist
1,495
137
Chesapeake Bay
most people intuitively get that their boat's sailing performance is non linear...and it has a sweet spot where it goes well....   This means the performance is non linear as the wind speed increases....  So... using any single number system to handicap boats will trade off accuracy for simplicity.

So the question then becomes how accurate do you need your handicap racing corrections to be...  You won't approach one design racing precision.   The standard here is...   what is the consensus of "good enough" for fair racing in THIS PARTICULAR FLEET

TOD vs TOT   trades simplicity versus the sense that TOT is a bit more accurate for a single number system.      For TOD Its simple to do the math in your head... 5 mile race and my rating.   If your racing club rarely tests the limit of the rating tables accuracy.....(ie you score the race with both tables and few results are changed...  then simpler is better for many sailors. 

So...... what is good enough for your level of racing.... The world wide consensus is TOT is the way to go for a single number system.

When you want more accurate handicap ratings tables because the racing on the water demands more precision then you will have to add two factors.   Course configuration and wind speed to the ratings tables. 

When your standards increase and the "consensus"of good enough is unacceptable then you want a measurement and VPP based system  and that requires more measurement and effort.   So....ORC is now the standard of "good enough" and enjoys a growing consensus   but for many owners....   its way above what they are willing to commit to.

Only One design racing solves the problem of changing wind speed over the duration of the race..

PHRF and Portsmouth (statistical data) have known issues of bias and can be gamed very simply.... again.... are they good enough for your fleet? is the standard.    The key word here is consensus among the owners.  

Beachcats have decided on a single number TOT system that uses a measurement based rating formula as the current best compromise.    We have a consensus that this method is " good enough" for fair racing. (And the consensus is tested annually by the board and users to match the real world experience)

 

Monkey

Super Anarchist
11,058
2,689
I moved from a town of large sailing to a small club.  What I've witnessed is a select few boats that have resorted to changing their boats without reporting it to PHRF and two volunteering on the PHRF boards until they get the rating they want, then leaving.  Several of the smarter sailors that have established OD's they can travel to events have taken their VPP information and compared it to the stated information in the wayward PHRF certs and their former OD VPP's and noted just how terrible they are.

We have specifically lost several boats, some didn't sell, they just no longer sail local, due to PHRF and its issues.  My wife and I were going to purchase a racer/cruiser but after seeing all of this and the frustration vented at the bar, we are in the market for a cruiser once I finish restoring a powerboat I started working on during COVID.  I used to race keelboats, not here.  It just looks stupid and PHRF is why.
Sadly, the same people who cheat on their PHRF ratings, will usually cheat in other ways. I used to sail with an owner that cheated on his rating. I quit sailing with him because of that.  I also helped punish him for it. We would sneak onto his boat before race days and fill his water tank to capacity. We figured a few hundred pounds of corrector weight in the bow of the boat made up for the twenty or so pounds he thought he was clever about. Then we’d drain the tank that afternoon. We’d openly taunt him at the bar that if he kept taking things off his boat that his rating required, we’d keep adding weight. Even his own crew was in on it. It was more satisfying than whining to a PHRF board. 

 

Tcatman

Super Anarchist
1,495
137
Chesapeake Bay
It was more satisfying than whining to a PHRF board. 
Yes, there are lots of ways to game the PHRF system.......  This is the first one that I have heard of going the direction of more fair.    Props!    Glad that somebody is putting the Gentleman back into the definition of Corinthian Sailing.

 

Foredeck Shuffle

More of a Stoic Cynic, Anarchy Sounds Exhausting
That's amusing and I'd be ok with you doing it if I were at your club but I'm not willing to go there.

I've decided to sail racing dinghies rather than deal with PHRF nonsense ever again.  I can afford one for every day of the week and still get a cruiser for less than keeping a single racer/cruiser in fighting condition.  Now if only I could find somewhere to keep and launch seven different small boats without having to break them down and go home with them every day...

 

Latest posts




Top