To Foil or not to Foil, that is the question

[mookiesurfs]

Just to add to the dumpster fire that is 2020, Bow says she thinks she's done with the F-16.

I guess I'm not surprised. It's been awhile since she ran through the parking lot in high heels after work to jump on the boat. She wants to race our S2 7.9 more. Bless her heart she loves our boats, and I love her, so that is what we will do. I've been racing the F-16 single handed, and it does very well, but it has occurred to me that there might be better ways to race cats solo. I have begun to cast covetous eyes upon the A-cats. Sexy, and fast upwind. Be still, my heart.

So, to foil or not to foil. Selling the F-16 puts either one into the price range. It will be mostly local  handicap or one design racing; I don't think regional or national competition will be on my radar, but who knows.

Trade-offs: What does a foiler give up to a C-board? Vice versa? How comparable are they upwind? Downwind seems pretty obvious. What's the effort and skill level comparison?

It wouldn't be fun to slog around 90% of the time just to foil 10% of the time, IF that were the situation. Or are the foiling boats always hauling the mail, just sometimes more so on foils? What are the give and takes, pros and cons? Anyone want a mint F-16? Bow says the 7.9 stays, period dot end. I count myself lucky.

 

[martin 'hoff]

A small foiling cat is a complete hoot.  Not sure you'll win races - takes some time and learning to make it pay - but it's just sheer fun.

Besides a-cats, I'd look at Stunt S9, iFly, Whisper and Nacra 15. The first two are mainly solo boats, but can take a 2nd sailor. The Whisper is for two, but it's easy to solo, and can carry 3. The N15 I haven't sailed, seems to be versatile and it's more like an a cat in that it doesn't have ride height control.

They all have tradeoffs, so you can decide on those and price/availability. On this very forum there are massive threads about Stunt and Whisper.

 

[maxstaylock]

I sail a classic A Cat.  Modern C board boats are great bits of kit, and a useful step up from an F16, after a while you won't even miss the kite.  It's funny, in 22 knots of wind, I already feel fast and scared enough to not miss foiling?  Your mileage may vary.  It's also a great class to join, something I'd miss with a Stunt/iFly etc.

 

[mookiesurfs]

Yes, I'm really looking at A-cats and the class. The boats are beautiful and fast, and the class seems fun. Not really set on foiling or not, just trying to decide which boat is best suited to beer holders.

 

[wlrottge]

I've sailed several foiling platforms and currently own a Nacra 20 FCS.  The S9 is a ton of fun and can be setup with a jib and a small spinnaker (for light air).  The boat suffers when the wind is light and the foils are on, but is comparatively much quicker if you remove them and sail with plain straight boards.

I had a 2004 Marstrom A and was a lot of fun; it had been retrofited with curved boards and was still close to minimum weight and VERY stiff.  I sold it when I bought the Nacra, but would have kept it if I had space.  My biggest/only real complaint was downwind in light-medium conditions, it suffered badly and I was in the process of putting a spinnaker on it until I bought the new boat.

If you're looking for beer holders, I'm not sure that either of those if right, lol.  The S9 doesn't have a lot of space and the A will certainly spill anything without a lid!

 

[mookiesurfs]

Yeah, just kidding about the beer holders. The goal is fun not stress, and I like working hard, but I'm not sure where a foiling A sits with that criteria. A floater certainly meets the goal; I'm working on how a foiler fits in for me.

 

[maxstaylock]

Exploder and DNA both offer a C board that fits the Z foil case, so you can have a foiler with a classic option.  

Quick disclaimer, am not sure how good a foiler with C boards would be, compared to a purpose built classic, as the heavier overall weight and further forward board position, and the big assed rudders, may all work against you, at least in lighter winds, possibly.  

But I am probably wrong.  Would love to know.  Hope it works better than expected, as there are a lot of foiler platforms reaching the end of their premier league lifespans, would be happy to find they could make competitive classics, without having to chop them about too much, as the current classic breading stock is getting a bit long in the tooth.

 

[mookiesurfs]

Thanks Max, good to know.

 

[Bsquared]

Disclaimer, I sail one of the “old breeding stock” classics.  Those boats pretty much rule in light air, although most people don’t like to sail or race in light air . Trapeezing downwind has upped the game for the classics, and the purpose-built new classics look pretty fast.  I haven’t seen a lot of the convertible boats but so far the foilers look very draggy in c board versions.  Classics are very simple (although adjustable rake dagger boards adds a big variable), and the foilers seem to keep getting more complex .   Do you like to tinker as much as you like to sail?    Do you want to be challenged or do you want to go fast quickly (with your experience the classic will be pretty familiar).  One other little detail, I bet you can find a competitive used classic cheaper than a good used foiler.

 

[Lost in Translation]

Upwind there is not much difference between classic and foiler across the wind range unless: 1) there are weeds and then the classic sailor can clear them more easily or 2) it is windy and the foiling sailor can make foiling upwind pay.  Downwind in non-foiling conditions the classic goes better, but it doesn't take much wind to foil.

If you sail off a beach with waves, you'll have a much easier time launching and retrieving on the classic.  If you sail on somewhat flat water with 8 knots to 15 knots, you will love the foiling runs and likely get addicted.  If you sail at a lake with weeds and light and variable air all the time, go classic.  If you want to minimize athletic requirements, go classic as foiling takes a higher level of fitness.

Convertibles that do both are a cool idea but not ideal from a pure racing standpoint.  For a classic boat as it will carry more water around in the daggerboard trunks and maybe have rudders that are too long and for a foiler, convertibles tend not to have the most current foils.

Picking the type of boat you want to sail is more a philosophy and knowing what you want to do versus a technical matter on boat speed for most people.  The North American scene scores classics and foilers separately most of the time so pick the type of boat you want to sail and enjoy it.  Both groups of sailors love their boats and the Worlds will be in St Petersburg, FL in the fall of 2021 with the North Americans still taking place there in 2020 too.

 

[mookiesurfs]

Upwind there is not much difference between classic and foiler across the wind range unless: 1) there are weeds and then the classic sailor can clear them more easily or 2) it is windy and the foiling sailor can make foiling upwind pay.  Downwind in non-foiling conditions the classic goes better, but it doesn't take much wind to foil.

If you sail off a beach with waves, you'll have a much easier time launching and retrieving on the classic.  If you sail on somewhat flat water with 8 knots to 15 knots, you will love the foiling runs and likely get addicted.  If you sail at a lake with weeds and light and variable air all the time, go classic.  If you want to minimize athletic requirements, go classic as foiling takes a higher level of fitness.

Convertibles that do both are a cool idea but not ideal from a pure racing standpoint.  For a classic boat as it will carry more water around in the daggerboard trunks and maybe have rudders that are too long and for a foiler, convertibles tend not to have the most current foils.

Picking the type of boat you want to sail is more a philosophy and knowing what you want to do versus a technical matter on boat speed for most people.  The North American scene scores classics and foilers separately most of the time so pick the type of boat you want to sail and enjoy it.  Both groups of sailors love their boats and the Worlds will be in St Petersburg, FL in the fall of 2021 with the North Americans still taking place there in 2020 too.

Now that's the info I was looking for. What's all the discussion about trunk position?

 

[Rawhide]

I have two A's a 2018 and 2016 AD3. The 2016 has the foils at 600mm back (400 on 2018), it is set up as a convertible, foils great both upwind and down and you need to be a better sailor than me to pick the difference the foil position makes foiling, though it is better balanced when non foiling upwind. I think it is perfectly possible to have an A which is competitive in both modes. 

 

[martin 'hoff]

If you want an A-cat, you have great info coming. 

If you want something that allows you to relax a bit and enjoy while foiling, I can only recommend boats with T foils and ride height control. Cats with a wand connected to a flap in the main foil are much closer to the "has beer can holders" level -- after an initial learning curve.

 

[Lost in Translation]

I have owned the 50, 40, and 45 cm board placement for the AD3.  And the 80 or 90 or whatever is what on the early foiling boats.  

I agree with Rawhide that all of the AD3's are nice.  In North America, I don't think there are any 60 cm back AD3's.  If you find one you like, Mookie, get it.  The boats have been very modular with new boards and rudders relatively easy to install if desired.  You could even get an older eXploder and would recommend one with Z10 or newer daggerboards as those can be swapped with newer boards or C boards easily if you like.

Another nice, used buy for classic / foiler would be an original DNA F1.  

Each time I write a model, I think of others.  There are many good models out there from the past.  Feel free to post or contact if you have questions are you contemplate purchase.

We all know Martin will eventually get an A too so he can join the large fleet in Florida.

 

[mookiesurfs]

Thank you very much for the info. I'm going to look at a 2015 DNA tomorrow with F1 boards. I don't know the beam position on these boats, but I'm open to putting in C boards in if foiling doesn't work out. It would be great to give foiling a go, though.

 

[Lost in Translation]

Those were probably the best foiling boats of that era.  Great boat.  I imagine you can get some C's in too but am not positive as those Z's come with assymetric daggerboard cases I believe.  Hope it goes well and you get it!

 

[SimonN]

While most of the advise given above is spot on, I think there is something missing from the equation. Your decision about which boat to get should be influenced by how much time you can put in. If you are going to sail every 3-4 weeks, unless you are some sailing god, you do not need the very latest foiler, because to take advantage of that needs time on the water. The "Holy Grail" is upwind foiling which takes 2 things, time on the water and the right boat set up. If you cannot put in the time, you will have just as much fun on an older boat that is set up properly to foil downwind, but which would also take C foils.

Upwind foiling is both significantly more difficult than downwind, an far scarier. I am lucky to train with the best upwind foilers probably anywhere and they have finally found a way of getting this old man to get going and I can tell you that doing 22 knots upwind is far scarier than 27-28 knots downwind. Why is it so scary? Because you have an apparent wind of35 knots plus rushing past your face and ears which is a sensory bombardment, plus the most difficult thing is working out how to stop without crashing! Yes, when you get it right it is probably the very best feeling in sailing (F50 sailors say that an A upwind is right up there in sailing experiences because we are so close to the water) but you need to be prepared to put the work in. If you do, the rewards are there and you will beat a classic upwind 12 knots plus, or if you are right up there in skill, in 10 knots.

However, for most, the thrill of the downwind is more than enough and they really don't want to put in the time or get that scared (I sometimes think I am mad). I personally think that for most, the idea of a "convertible" is the way to go. You can choose the right configuration for the conditions each day and get the most out of your boat. Best of all, the boats most suitable for this are ones that don't break the bank (relatively!). Even then, this is probably the place to start because if you get addicted to foiling and want more, you then upgrade and there will always be a demand for decent convertibles. And if you are happy, you have saved a lot of money.

 

[mookiesurfs]

A seasoned A-cat sailor explained it to me like this:

- For pure fun, go foiling. It's not important to have the latest and greatest.

- For average racing, a competitive C board is good.

- For serious national or international racing, you're getting back into the latest and greatest foilers.

The first two are what I'm aiming at, and since the racing is beer can racing, an older foiler will work.

So, I got the 2015 DNA. It really is a beautiful boat, and it has some nice updates like a deck sweeper and F1 boards. I can't wait to get it on the water.

What do you guys think about helmets?  Yes or no?

 

[DtM]

The helmet is a matter of personal preference and comfort.  For me it would be yes.   Note that they are compulsory on the F50's, GC32's, AC boats etc etc