Tomahawk: Peoples Foiler?!

[FishAintBiting]

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The design teams slogan "if you can sail you can foil" says it all...

It's good to hear that there may be hope for you to foil yet Doug. Or is it possible that you may once more be "foiled again"?

Fish

 

[Doug Lord]

Wanna bet? If you are wrong you come to the gorge so you can introduce yourself.

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No bet necessary-once the Tomahawk foils and the boat that first uses them are sorted there is no question of the outcome. I win. Foiling wins.

PS-might be at the gorge anyway......

C class cat faster on foils? Oops guess not.

Hope the Ovington boat rocks... but it's not an automatic just because it has foils.

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No, but its damn near "automatic" because it has JUST TWO FOILS and a key developer is Linton Jenkins(Full Force) who is primarily responsible for the RS600FF.

 

[BalticBandit]

Wanna bet? If you are wrong you come to the gorge so you can introduce yourself.

===================

No bet necessary-once the Tomahawk foils and the boat that first uses them are sorted there is no question of the outcome. I win. Foiling wins.

PS-might be at the gorge anyway......

C class cat faster on foils? Oops guess not.

Hope the Ovington boat rocks... but it's not an automatic just because it has foils.

------------------------------------

No, but its damn near "automatic" because it has JUST TWO FOILS and a key developer is Linton Jenkins(Full Force) who is primarily responsible for the RS600FF.

Just show up at the gorge and learn to sail.

 

[Mrgone1111]

Sorry for stealing the thread!
bgulari:

Are you ever in the Great Lakes area foiling? I see the Detroit River reference, are you from the lakes area? It does look pretty cool, I have done a lot of OD racing and would be interested in trying sometime. I sail a C Scow which gives you that high above the water feel, but looks pretty tame compared to a Moth.

I live on the river about 400 yards upstream of Bayview Yacht Club. The ice has melted and in one week I will have my two moths in a race to see which one gets home first. Bladerider from hawaii or Mach2 from china...

Stop by Bayview I will be sailing pretty much every week day starting in two weeks.

Cool Deal, nice to know we have so much talent in this area! I will try to make it over to check you out. Would not want to mess up any of your race weapons, however! I live on Lake Fenton just south on Flint on US23. You will have to come try out sailing or racing a C Scow for a change of pace. They are a blast. They are really fast in light stuff and become a handful in a blow. Big fun! I will be splashing it in Saturday!

 

[Doug Lord]

What happens when a 470 is faster around a course? Will the foils still draw in the masses of dinghy sailors that dont exist right now?
Though I wish Linton and all the other people involved with the project the best of luck

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I heard from someone across the pond that you don't have to worry about that-it wouldn't be a good idea to bet on the 470.

 

[SimonN]

A Moth may be faster than the Ovington concept boat some of the time but the fact that tomaconcept is a FOILER is likely to mean it will-at least-beat any monohull its own length and then some.

Dream on, Doug, Just because it is a foiler doesn't mean that it will beat any monhull its own length "and then some". Look at the foiling 18. Its reported top speeds are nowhere near what has been achieved by a non foiling 18 and all independent witnesses say it is slower than a well sailed conventional 18. (The only "evidence" that it is faster is that the owner/sailor said he overtook some tail enders in the one race he sailed against them!).

 

[Doug Lord]

A Moth may be faster than the Ovington concept boat some of the time but the fact that tomaconcept is a FOILER is likely to mean it will-at least-beat any monohull its own length and then some.

Dream on, Doug, Just because it is a foiler doesn't mean that it will beat any monhull its own length "and then some". Look at the foiling 18. Its reported top speeds are nowhere near what has been achieved by a non foiling 18 and all independent witnesses say it is slower than a well sailed conventional 18. (The only "evidence" that it is faster is that the owner/sailor said he overtook some tail enders in the one race he sailed against them!).

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I'm afraid thats not correct. There are numerous independent witnesses who have said the foiling 18's(two going on three) are faster than a conventional 18.

Just as the foiling Moth is faster than the non-foiling Moth and the RS600FF is faster than the non-foiling RS600 and the foiling R class is faster than the non-foiling R class.

The C Class was a bad example because three and four foil cats have been done numerous times with exactly the same results.

 

[SimonN]

There are numerous independent witnesses who have said the foiling 18's(two going on three) are faster than a conventional 18.

The only people who have ever made this claim are the ones who sailed the boat. However, results speak for themselves. I find it hard to take you seriously at the best of times but when you exagerate (numerous independent witnesses), you expose yourself as somebody ho distorts the truth for their own purposes. The simple truth is that a foiling 18 has only sailed against top class 18's on one occasion and that has been discussed often enough. On top of that, there are regular cases of non foiling 18's going over 25 knots, for extended periods of time (average over 5 minutes!). To date, the foiling 18 teams haven't reported anything higher than 10 seconds at 21 knots.

You regularly accuse people of distorting the truth about relative speeds of boats that you have never even seen sailing, yet it is those very people who you rely on for information. For instance, for a long time the people who sail both Moths and 18's said that 18's ere faster. You accused us of lying and distorting the truth. However, as soon as Moths finally developed to the point that they are faster in some conditions, it was those same people who reported it. For some reason that nobody can fathom, you seem to think that there peple who want to deliberately distort the situation. That is simply not so. You are the only one who uses bits of unreliable information to defend your ignorant arguements. Nobody else cares if a foiling 18 is faster than a non foiling one. It doesn't change anything. If it were faster, we wouldn't all convert our boats to foilers or feel inferior or anything like that.

However, you still totally miss the point. The foiling debate isn't about speed. It's only a small part of the equation. So, it doesn't matter if the foiling 18's are quicker or slower than an non foiling 18. The fun is in sailing a completely different feel of boat. But you would know that if you sailed foilers....................

 

[Doug Lord]

The fun is in sailing a completely different feel of boat. But you would know that if you sailed foilers....................

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Oh, I agree all right: thats why the new foils are such a breakthru. They will make it easier, simpler and less expensive to get into foiling....

 

[bgulari]

Anyone wanna take odds that it still might not foil with doug on the helm??

 

[FishAintBiting]

Anyone wanna take odds that it still might not foil with doug on the helm??

More to the point: Will there be the ENDLESS excuses as to why he couldn't possibly take the boats that are offered to him out for a spin?

- "There's not enough wind"

- "There is too much wind"

- "Too hot"

- "Too cold"

- "My mummy won't let me play with others"

- "It doesn't come with Park BenchTM seats"

- ...

Fish

 

[BalticBandit]

The fun is in sailing a completely different feel of boat. But you would know that if you sailed foilers....................

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Oh, I agree all right: thats why the new foils are such a breakthru. They will make it easier, simpler and less expensive to get into foiling....

Come to the Gorge and learn to sail - short boards, Kites and Then show us what you've got in foilers. There's always a party in the Gorge from Memorial day through Labor day

airfare from pretty much anywhere in the USA is around $350 round trip if you book in advance, Lodging is cheap (camping), food is a fixed cost anyway.

Put up or shut up.

 

[Doug Lord]

Anyone wanna take odds that it still might not foil with doug on the helm??

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If I make it will be great seeing a canard Moth going the wrong way-cool!

 

[bgulari]

or what about a tri foilerer that does not have any righting moment generated by its foils, or a trapwing, or a cbtf foiler.

Hah you have a sense of humor?

 

[Doug Lord]

Excellent thread on Yachts and Yachting about the Tomahawk(foils) with contributions from Jon Howes and Chris Turner among others:

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/for...D=5271&PN=2

 

[FIGJAM]

i took a doug esque fella for a test sail on friday late afternoon!! What a complete waste of my time, he almost drowned cause he was that bad!

 

[bistros]

i took a doug esque fella for a test sail on friday late afternoon!! What a complete waste of my time, he almost drowned cause he was that bad!

Not to worry, our Doug actually has more sense than that. He's successfully avoided full size sailing for about five plus years now, and even when directly challenged with a strings-free Bladerider ride he won't go on the water. I actually offered to pay his Greyhound bus fare to get to try Bora's boat ride offer in Louisiana.

Our Dougie has aged-out of sailing real boats and his last public gasp at thinking about performance sailing was the never-to-be-built "Trapwing" conceived to allow him to "rest comfortably" in the middle, while playing with knobs, dials and buttons like the RC boats he loves. Lately he's been talking about grafting (duct-taping) his Trapwing idea onto his uncompleted (unstarted?) half-a-cat "foiler" so he can fix his park bench in the middle and remote control "foil" the boat he's sitting on.

Kind of sad really - I had hoped he would be able to actually get a shot to play in the game he's been rabidly cheerleading for so long. The years ahead will be frustrating and miserable for Doug - self proclaimed foiling mindset stuck in a declining keelboat body.

 

[Doug Lord]

I'm amazed that the very IDEA that the Tomahawk foil MIGHT make it easier to foil actually appears to scare some people. I wonder why?

 

[Trevor B]

Doug,

I'm afraid that you've confused hate for you with hate for the Ovi-foiler.....

 

[bgulari]

Doug,I'm afraid that you've confused hate for you with hate for the Ovi-foiler.....

second