Tomahawk: Peoples Foiler?!
- Thread starter Doug Lord
- Start date
Cheesy
Anarchist
- 877
- 0
Doug Lord
Super Anarchist
- Thread starter
- #103
=============================
From the R Class site:
" Now that Sean and Dan have done the hard initial work, and shown that the foils are clearly quicker, it's time to get the next keen boats up on foils. "
Not only faster but easier to sail.....
http://www.rclass.org/info/construction/hy...es-january-2009
Last edited by a moderator:
BalticBandit
Super Anarchist
- 11,114
- 36
Now wait one second. Some of us are in the same age range as the Dougster and hardly consider ourselves "aged out". Heck I wanna be like the old owner of the I14 Grendl's Mother who celebrated his 70th while racing Grendl in the CYC Thursday Night OD series
It took a while butI got through the 11 pages of the Y&Y forum on Tomahawk. Its only worth reading the Jon Howes posts if you want any factual info. He designed it and explains well how it works.
My understanding is he designed it for the sail rocket speed machine and very high speeds. Hence he says it will not go upwind well compared to a moth but will go faster downwind in high winds. It will have a higher top speed than current moth foils.
Conclusion 1: I do not think these foils will end up on moths because half the race is upwind, and most races are not in max speed conditions.
It is being fitted to a boat for general consumption, hoping to temp people who do not want a moth, but want to fly. They must have done the market research, but my perception of the huge growth in the moth market has been about speed, not necessarilly foiling. Its really rewarding to go siling in 10-15kts and be the fastest boat on the water. I am not sure that the new boat with Tomahawk foil will give that reward in moderate winds. It may be great in extreme consitions going for outright speed but I see that as a very small market.
Conclusion 2: Depending on how slow it is upwind and downwind in moderate conditions, it might not be that fast, and most of the time might in fact be slower than similar boats without any hydrofoils.
I have said this because I have sailed and watched some pretty bad foil combinations over the past 5 years and know too well that a slow foiler in poor conditions is a terrible thing to sail, slow, frustrating and embarrasing, not something for the marketting campaign.
My understanding is he designed it for the sail rocket speed machine and very high speeds. Hence he says it will not go upwind well compared to a moth but will go faster downwind in high winds. It will have a higher top speed than current moth foils.
Conclusion 1: I do not think these foils will end up on moths because half the race is upwind, and most races are not in max speed conditions.
It is being fitted to a boat for general consumption, hoping to temp people who do not want a moth, but want to fly. They must have done the market research, but my perception of the huge growth in the moth market has been about speed, not necessarilly foiling. Its really rewarding to go siling in 10-15kts and be the fastest boat on the water. I am not sure that the new boat with Tomahawk foil will give that reward in moderate winds. It may be great in extreme consitions going for outright speed but I see that as a very small market.
Conclusion 2: Depending on how slow it is upwind and downwind in moderate conditions, it might not be that fast, and most of the time might in fact be slower than similar boats without any hydrofoils.
I have said this because I have sailed and watched some pretty bad foil combinations over the past 5 years and know too well that a slow foiler in poor conditions is a terrible thing to sail, slow, frustrating and embarrasing, not something for the marketting campaign.
Doug Lord
Super Anarchist
- Thread starter
- #106
Jon's post on Y&Y was on the 13th. This quote is from yesterday post 48 on the boatdesign Tomahawk thread:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats...er-26364-4.html
"The Tomahawk foil is an application of a foil section I developed for another, rather extreme application that may (note "may", not "will") remove much of the difficulty of foiling for the average bloke/blokess with the potential for high speeds in the right conditions/points of sailing.
When fully sorted, it may even be quick upwind, however, if too slow to surface run then it will always be slower than a conventional foil. Surface running can occur upwind but obviuously the power needs to be present to get it into surface running mode in the first place. What it has already proved (on the sailboard) is that when fully established at the surface it is very quick. How this compares to a conventional foil, or even a well sailed conventional board, only comparative testing will show although I am fairly confident in the board application that it is faster than the conventional approach.
As for the amount of vertical surface below the foil, yes, this is small but it only needs to work without assistance from the bit above when the boat is sailing fast and it seems to be sufficient for in these conditions. We are currently performing some final optimisations (losing the tee foil on the rudder and using a surface runner here as well, for example, which gets rid of the twist grip. Weight shift can then be used to squash the rudder foil down at low speeds, at higher speeds both foils then surface run).
I think the boat is likely to be slower around a course than a current Moth but much easier to sail/simpler."
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats...er-26364-4.html
"The Tomahawk foil is an application of a foil section I developed for another, rather extreme application that may (note "may", not "will") remove much of the difficulty of foiling for the average bloke/blokess with the potential for high speeds in the right conditions/points of sailing.
When fully sorted, it may even be quick upwind, however, if too slow to surface run then it will always be slower than a conventional foil. Surface running can occur upwind but obviuously the power needs to be present to get it into surface running mode in the first place. What it has already proved (on the sailboard) is that when fully established at the surface it is very quick. How this compares to a conventional foil, or even a well sailed conventional board, only comparative testing will show although I am fairly confident in the board application that it is faster than the conventional approach.
As for the amount of vertical surface below the foil, yes, this is small but it only needs to work without assistance from the bit above when the boat is sailing fast and it seems to be sufficient for in these conditions. We are currently performing some final optimisations (losing the tee foil on the rudder and using a surface runner here as well, for example, which gets rid of the twist grip. Weight shift can then be used to squash the rudder foil down at low speeds, at higher speeds both foils then surface run).
I think the boat is likely to be slower around a course than a current Moth but much easier to sail/simpler."
Last edited by a moderator:
bistros
Super Anarchist
- 1,264
- 13
I'm looking at 50 in 2010, and I hope I'll never "age out". Age is not about how long you've been here, it's about how well you find and face your challenges. Swimming and being the slowest boat in the fleet is far "younger" than sitting at a keyboard growing hemorrhoids and slagging unwanted crap at people. I've met people old at 20 and young at 90 - years on the planet has nothing to do with it.
That being said, there is nothing wrong with acknowledging that your body may not be able to respond to the same challenges you faced as a kid - you've just got to find new things to do that fit your capabilities. I'm sure there will be a keel boat in my future, and it will be great fun when I get there. I don't jump out of airplanes anymore, but I once did a lot.
--
Bill
bistros
Super Anarchist
- 1,264
- 13
Jesus, Doug!
Have you any idea who Trevor B. is? I'd pay good money just to listen to him (or his partner) talk about high performance sailing. His observations of people's reactions to you this thread is something you should consider well.
I'm 32 years young, but after a weekend of snowboarding with 10 year old kids I feel very old.......... :lol:
I'm 30 and discovered 12's at 29, i'm not planning on stopping sailing skiffs for at least 10-15 years. If you look at the ages of some of the top 12 guys there approaching or over 50! And there not planning on stopping. Hell, there's no age barrier in skiffs/dinghy's whatever, just look at howie hamlin.
As far as the tomahawk goes, i think its great that someone has created it. Should it be compared to a moth at all? Its longer, heavier, has main and jib, differant foil configuration and will no doubt be one design. Can it sail in chop? I sailed a 12 on the weekend, nice 3rd rig (20knots, gusting more) and we had a massive mine, 1 to remember, both of us around the forestay. As we were coming in the was a moth heading out, he took one look at the chop and headed straight back in. Can these boats sail in chop? There's only one here in Brisbane and he never goes out in more than 15.
And are foils a revolution, seems more like a evolution to me. A revolution is something like carbon fibre construction. Didn't moths go hydro-foil cause they couldn't get any narrower?
I'm 30 and discovered 12's at 29, i'm not planning on stopping sailing skiffs for at least 10-15 years. If you look at the ages of some of the top 12 guys there approaching or over 50! And there not planning on stopping. Hell, there's no age barrier in skiffs/dinghy's whatever, just look at howie hamlin.
As far as the tomahawk goes, i think its great that someone has created it. Should it be compared to a moth at all? Its longer, heavier, has main and jib, differant foil configuration and will no doubt be one design. Can it sail in chop? I sailed a 12 on the weekend, nice 3rd rig (20knots, gusting more) and we had a massive mine, 1 to remember, both of us around the forestay. As we were coming in the was a moth heading out, he took one look at the chop and headed straight back in. Can these boats sail in chop? There's only one here in Brisbane and he never goes out in more than 15.
And are foils a revolution, seems more like a evolution to me. A revolution is something like carbon fibre construction. Didn't moths go hydro-foil cause they couldn't get any narrower?
Last edited by a moderator:
Cheesy
Anarchist
- 877
- 0
For various reasons this was not true on Saturday (last week), dont worry though it wasnt on the internet so I dont expect you to belive me.....
BalticBandit
Super Anarchist
- 11,114
- 36
One of my skiing buddies describes this as
"your brain writing checks your body can't cash"....
from what i saw of the r-class foiler, they were dominate in the light/moderate days, not the heavy days which wellington is reknown for.
the r-class is essentially a 12 with a 3rd rig, therefore in the lighter stuff they can struggle, ie the lighter days which nuplex won.
and I think they didn't use the foils on the second day......
"The breeze sat in the high 20s from the north for most of the day, the forecast was for the breeze to peak at 30 – it’s show time boys and girls!
Sean and Dan left the foils on the beach" wonder why............
the r-class is essentially a 12 with a 3rd rig, therefore in the lighter stuff they can struggle, ie the lighter days which nuplex won.
and I think they didn't use the foils on the second day......
"The breeze sat in the high 20s from the north for most of the day, the forecast was for the breeze to peak at 30 – it’s show time boys and girls!
Sean and Dan left the foils on the beach" wonder why............
Cheesy
Anarchist
- 877
- 0
The L3 on foils is still very much in development, although they have come along way very fast. What was interesting though was that a Woof hull (I think) gave them a good run upwind in the light
Rskiff
Member
- 286
- 43
Let me clear up some misconceptions!!!!! Firstly the Wellington contest we went into it with a total of less than 4 hours of actual foiling, so we were only trying to prove that the hydro foils do work. We used them in marginal conditions and they worked dispite the fact that our sails were way to full(conventional rig for light). The decision not to use the foils when the breeze was up was because of reliability as still hadn't sorted breakages out and not enough time on water for settings in big breeze. The following day wind down to 20 knots, so we decided to use and on the way to start line, crash! broke main foil off(reliability) so justification for previous days decision. Remember this is all work in progress for us, and we will be using foils in all conditions as soon as we are confident we have nailed all issues.
Secondly, racing last week, we werent able to quite foil in the 5-7 knots and was slower upwind as we were trying to foil by bearing off(losing height). Beaten by a old 13 year old Macca upwind(which is quick in the light) but as soon as we decided not to bother and sail proper angles we were competitive, but off the wind, up and away! Wind came in 8-10 and we were off. we let a couple of others try out, and happy to report others are well underway with the building programme, so we will be able to do some real testing against 2 more boats coming out foiling within the next month.The foiling R is definitely quicker in all conditions but still dont know 5 and under yet and 25 plus as yet to sail in those. We have sailed in up to 25 and was again so dominant when no breakages. again if others want to try, do it, don't knock it.
Cheesy
Anarchist
- 877
- 0
Cheesy
Anarchist
- 877
- 0
Sorry Sean, was not a dig at what your doing with the foils on your boat, was more of a dig at certain people who may consider foils the worlds greatest and most significant sailing evolution. Though maybe I'm too quick to judge, people were probably saying the same things when asso kites arrived and then carbon masts on skiffs.
I guess people who like the idea of foils will go that way. Just as some people like sailing dinghy's and some like sailing skiffs. People have the choice to pick and choose what appeals to them, this could be seen in that crazy out-of-hand taser on foils post.
I guess people who like the idea of foils will go that way. Just as some people like sailing dinghy's and some like sailing skiffs. People have the choice to pick and choose what appeals to them, this could be seen in that crazy out-of-hand taser on foils post.
SimonN
Super Anarchist
Come on, Trevor. Don't hold back! Tell us how it really is!
Hoever, I think that hate is the wrong word. i think it should be "scorn". But you are right in principal. I cannot see why any Moth sailor would be negative about the Ovi-foiler. They are totally different things. What Doug doesn't realise is that many of us know some or all of the people behind the boat, such as Linton and Chris, and would never knock them or their efforts.
