Tom's official Corporate Personhood thread

[Guest]

I'll start off by saying corporations are not people and we should stop thinking of them as people. Some other bright people think so too....

Reich rejects the notion that corporations are people and are being invested with anthropomorphic qualities. "Corporations are legal fictions, nothing more than bundles of contractual agreements" (p216). He maintains that corporations cannot be blamed for "corporate greed", nor can they be expected to promote the common good. They are legal entities with the purpose to make profits for investors and shareholders. A corporation will do its best to thrive within the frame work that it is given, - if it does not do so it is at risk to be surpassed by the competition. Reich debunks the concept of "corporate social responsibility" as bogus. He maintains that it should not be the role of corporations to provide health coverage. Corporations are not people and should not be taxed, instead their investors and shareholder need to be taxed on the profits. Corporations should not have the legal standing of a person in court. They cannot act with criminal intent as "they have no human capacity for intent" (p 219). However, corporations need to be subject to corporate civil liability, as investors should not profit from illegal activity.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercapitalism:_The_Transformation_of_Business,_Democracy,_and_Everyday_Life

 

[Olsonist]

Knock knock.

Who's there?

Corporate Personhood.

Tom who?

Tom Ray.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

That's funny.

Ps: guns.

 

[Olsonist]

Why did the Corporation cross the road?

Because being a Person, he could.

What's the difference between a pickup truck full of Corporate Persons and a pickup truck full of dead babies?

You can fit more Corporate Persons in a pickup truck.

If one Corporate Person merged with another Corporate Person could a gay baker refuse to bake them a cake?

A Corporation, a Person and a Corporate Person walk into a bar. Bartender says, table for one?

Did you hear the one about the Corporate Pollack? He was found liable.

 

[Olsonist]

How many Corporate Persons does it take to change a lightbulb? None, the Invisible Hand will take care of it.

Chuck Norris is not a Corporate Person. No one would even think of holding Chuck Norris liable.

How many Corporate Persons can dance on the head of a pin? John Galt knows.

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

I'll start off by saying corporations are not people and we should stop thinking of them as people. Some other bright people think so too....

Reich rejects the notion that corporations are people and are being invested with anthropomorphic qualities. "Corporations are legal fictions, nothing more than bundles of contractual agreements" (p216). He maintains that corporations cannot be blamed for "corporate greed", nor can they be expected to promote the common good. They are legal entities with the purpose to make profits for investors and shareholders. ....

I don't think that's the main purpose of non-profit corporations like the NAACP and Citizens United. Are we supposed to discuss corporate personhood without reference to the Citizens United case that made it a topic the public knows about? Sorry, not interested, won't be back.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

So are corporate persons only those persons who are non-profit? What about the big uncaring corporations like Apple or Walmart? Are they people too?

What about NASCAR, the Greatest, most 'Merican of all All American Corporations? They are not just some non-profit interest group asserting the rights of their members, they are big bidness! Corporate Suffrage NOW!

This thread is a non-approved topic. It is therefore a red herring.

ps: guns.

 

[mikewof]

You know, for the life of me, I have no idea of Normy's position on this. I can only assume he's against it, but his "guess what I'm thinking" schtick isn't really penetrating my ADD.

 

[Gnarly]

There once was a corporate person,

It has no feet or no head,

It owns it's own senate, representatives, judges,

Fuck with it, and you're better off dead.

 

[Raz'r]

No no

It's

Ps. Favre

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

OK, one more here, in case of the unlikely event that someone drops by wanting to discuss corporate personhood instead of discussing me.

So are corporate persons only those persons who are non-profit? What about the big uncaring corporations like Apple or Walmart? Are they people too?

Are they media corporations? And if so, how do you know?

I know no one will answer, but the answer matters to people who want to amend our constitution to change which kinds of corporations can be censored by government.

Some of them can give a clear answer to the question. This seems pretty clear.

Corporations are not people. They do not breathe or eat or sleep. They do not dance or fall in love or raise children. They do not go bowling or fight in wars or get cancer. They do not vote. Yet now they threaten to trample democracy by claiming constitutional protections that were intended only for actual people.

OK, that's clear as a bell. A really nice, crystal one. Constitutional protections are only for actual people.

Until you scroll down the page and find this:

What will be the effect of this amendment on the media? Will media corporations keep their First Amendment rights?
The amendment language that we have endorsed would not affect the media. Media corporations would retain their full First Amendment rights when they are engaged in publishing, broadcasting and similar activities. Just like other corporations, however, they would not have the right to sponsor campaign ads or make campaign contributions.

Oh. So the part at the top of their page should really say:

Corporations are not people. They do not breathe or eat or sleep. They do not dance or fall in love or raise children. They do not go bowling or fight in wars or get cancer. They do not vote. Yet now they threaten to trample democracy by claiming constitutional protections that were intended only for actual people, non-profit corporations, and sometimes media corporations.

That's a little less clear. Maybe we should clarify some things before amending the constitution.

Things like: what is a media corporation?

What if it's owned by another corporation?

Is an editorial endorsement by a media corporation a type of "campaign contribution" or is it protected corporate $peech?

 

[Olsonist]

I don't think that's the main purpose of non-profit corporations like the NAACP and Citizens United. Are we supposed to discuss corporate personhood without reference to the Citizens United case that made it a topic the public knows about? Sorry, not interested, won't be back.

What he said.

ps: Guns.

 

[jocal505]

OK, one more here, in case of the unlikely event that someone drops by wanting to discuss corporate personhood instead of discussing me.

The forums need to address your behavior. It has become a quality control issue.

A curious pattern of behavior has put you in this position:

The Tom Whoppers

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=163210&page=7#entry4838776

A series of Tom Ray straw men will not get 'er done. WTF?

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

JBSF, my point all along has been that personhood is not the issue. I figured this thread was for everyone, not just you and me. We might agree on that initial list but many do not. They'd just rather discuss me than discuss the other part of the topic. As Eva Dent.

You missed a couple of big questions. One can be found in pretty mangled form at the top of the actual Official TR Corporate Personhood Thread. Does the government need a warrant to search a corporate headquarters? Do they have fourth amendment rights?

You also missed a big part of the fifth. Can corporate property be taken for public use without just compensation?

Questions about unlimited rights are just foolish. There are none for humans or corporations. Also, you'll get a different answer if you ask "do" corporations have certain rights than if you ask whether they should have them.

I'll answer my questions both ways. Yes, they do have to get a warrant and yes they should. No, corporate property can not be taken for public use without just compensation, nor should it be.

I'll wait for you to rephrase yours.

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

OK, one more here, in case of the unlikely event that someone drops by wanting to discuss corporate personhood instead of discussing me.

Tom, look you are getting wrapped around the axle on things we likely mostly agree on.

Let's ignore the entire concept of "personhood" for a moment as that seems to always get in the way of a rational discussion. we can come back to that later. Lets see if we can agree on some basic stuff and stipulate so we aren't arguing constantly over the same things:

• Corporations have 4th Am rights against unreasonable and warrantless search and seizure

The following list of people disagree with that, from the actual TR personhood thread:

Damaged Goods, Occams Razor, dacapo, weedwhacker, t22harris, shut.up.and.drive, BigGuyWithPinkHat, Craven Moorehead, HollyGoodhead, Lilly, Eric, cap10ed, The Owners Wife, opa1, John Gault, not for nothing 2, By the lee, just rent it, Olsonist, Mark K, pro from dover, bilge_rat, 1topfueljim, Chuck D., billy backstay, mr_fabulous, brocksf, boat_alexandra

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

• Do ALL corporations have the 1st Am right to freedom of the press? for that matter do ALL humans have unlimited "freedom of the press" rights and how are either differentiated from basic freedom of speech? IS there even a difference? There must have been, IMHO, since the FF's father made a distinction between press and speech.
• Do ALL corporations have the 1st Am right regarding the religious establishment clause? IOW, can ALL corporations exercise their freedom of religion without any restrictions imposed by the gov't?
• Do ALL corporations have a 2nd Am RKBA? If so, can a corporation be in the milita?
• Do ALL corporations have the 3rd Am right against quartering soldiers in private homes? Do corporations even have private homes?
• Do ALL corporations have protection under the indictment and grand jury procedures under the 5th Am? Can corporations even be charged with a crime? Do corporations have self-incrimination protections? Do corporations have to be mirandized when they get arrested? Are corporations protected from double-jeopardy?
• Do ALL corporations get 6th Am rights? Or is that only for criminal trials? (See #5)
• Do corporations get 8th Am rights against cruel and unusual punishment? Can corporations be executed by lethal injection since the SCOTUS just found that current drug cocktail mix to be constitutional?
• Can corporations be put into involuntary servitude for a crime as per the 13th Am?
• Do ALL corporations have 14th Am rights to citizenship?
• Can a corporation have priviledges and immunity under the 14th Am?
• Are there legal rights that corporations have that humans don't?

I would be interested in your answers to these, Tom. Thanks.

1. I have repeated my answer to number one enough times that I just know I'm going to get hammered for being repetitive for saying it again, but you did ask. Freedom of the press belongs to all of us, whether we act individually or in groups. Same with freedom of speech.

2. I don't know how the establishment clause applies to corporations. Seems to me it doesn't, except perhaps as a limitation on action, not a right. If they're people under the Civil Rights Act.

3. Yes, people can and do exercise second amendment rights individually and in groups. Any weapons owned by the group should be constitutionally protected. But probably are not, especially if they look mean.

4. Yes, corporations have private property and quartering troops on their property would seem to me a violation of the 3rd, but I don't know.

5. Ask a lawyer. That's a sure way to get a straight answer. I don't know. IANAL.

6. Same.

7. At what point can we get to discussing something other than nonsense? Revoking a corporate charter is a death sentence. That's as close as I can get.

8. Yes, in the sense that they can be fined.

9. Yes. Santa Clara County vs Southern Pacific RR. See the statement of the chief justice on behalf of a unanimous court prior to argument.

10. Yes. Same, plus many subsequent ones.

11. Limited liability is a big one. I'm sure there are others.

I know you said that corporations have 4th Am rights against unreasonable and warrantless search and seizure but as my post above indicates, that's far from something we all agree on. The majority of voters on that topic in my poll said that corporations don't have fourth amendment rights.

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

Since you seem to really want an education on the topic, JBSF, I'm going to change my nomination.

You should head the Sailing Anarchy SuperPAC instead of Sean.

You'll learn more than you ever wanted to know about how political $peech really work$.

I'm still looking for a lawyer who will serve pro bono to help you out.

But I'm standing firm on the "Snaggy for Communications Director" thing.

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

I've always gotten the fact that corporations and people are different and are treated differently under the law, though we share some of the same rights in some similar ways. Some similar enough that no one can seem to tell me how an anti-discrimination law that only covered corporations would be different from the one we have that treats them as people.

Other cases address citizenship. Sol wants to talk about one involving Hertz, but RedTuna was able to turn up some other significant ones recently. They said essentially the exact opposite of the way Sol wants to read the Hertz case, so he ignored them.

We have discussed the issue of non-human entities owning guns before. A trust isn't a corporation but both can take some of the actions humans can take.

 

[Dog]

Corporations are groups of people organized for a common purpose and like any group of people they have, and should have, collective speech rights. Can someone who believes in suppressing the speech rights of groups of people organized as a corporations explain why the same should not apply to groups of people organized as mutual companies or a labor unions?