ton fun

[Editor]

How do you prove that a level rating formula works?

A good way would be to take two top boats from that formula set them against each other in a decent breeze and see who comes out top.

The formula I refer to is the good old International Offshore Rule (IOR) and while the boats now race under IRC, the closeness of their ratings show IOR wasn’t so far from the mark.

The two boats were Whiplash and Swuzzlebubble. It is not only the Editor who lusts after Swuzzlebubble, as owner of a Dubois one off Quarter Tonner from the same era (a close drawing board sister to Police Car) I also think these boats are beautiful, sail well and are great fun.

Anyway back to the formula test; in the 40 Mile Coastal Race, part of the Henri Lloyd Half Ton Classics Cup after 5 hours of racing Swuzzlebubble corrected out at 5.08.47. Unfortunately Miss Whiplash came in at 5.08.41 or victory by 6 seconds or 0.04% if I have my maths correct.

What an event, 18 classic half tonners hitting the start line and their little sisters manage over 30 at the Quarter Ton Cup and not a boat under 20 years old yet many have had more plastic surgery than…. Better not say, I can’t afford a libel case but she knows who she is.

Who needs one design? (Unless you race under PHRF that is ha ha.) - -Shanghai Sailor.

 

[SloopJonB]

I agree. The closeness is largely a result of the high degree of type forming that resulted from the IOR - after a few years of it the boats were generally so similar that they had to be close in performance. Just look at the 30.5 One Tonners - you practically have to be a Yacht Designer to tell the hulls apart.

 

[Hitchhiker]

Some of the best inshore racing I ever had was on 1/4 an 1/2 ton boats in the late 70's early 80's. There will always be a place in my life for these boats. There was nothing like gybing in 20+ to teach you how to do bow!

And.....a lot of the boats still hold up well. Sweet Okole still going strong in Hawaii races. They were posting day runs right up with us on Limitless in the Pac Cup this year.

 

[A3A]

I agree. The closeness is largely a result of the high degree of type forming that resulted from the IOR - after a few years of it the boats were generally so similar that they had to be close in performance. Just look at the 30.5 One Tonners - you practically have to be a Yacht Designer to tell the hulls apart.

Yes, IOR did rate similar boats very well, but they were not good boats! The racing was good because they were all equally slow and cranky to sail. The trick was to fool the rule to get a low rating more than you deteriorated the hydrodynamics. But if you did too good a job, the rulemakers came down hard and the next season your rating was hammered.

 

[shanghaisailor]

Mine aren't slow A3A.

As mentioned on the FP I have a Dubois One off and my wife has a David Thomas Bolero (sadly both designers are no longer with us) and they are every bit as quick as many of the more modern designs or non type formed 'non IOR boats'. We regularly are faster, particularly upwind than more modern sprit boats.

Of course downwind we don't plane like the more modern dishes but I wouldn't want to take one of them offshore in 38kts as we did once in the Bolero - and came out the other end unscathed (boat & crew).

Also they are both 'turn of the '80's boats meaning they are approaching 35 years old', I'd like to see some of the modern plastic fantastic still holding together in 35 years time.

Come to think of it, it would be pretty awesome if I was still around in 35 years - ha ha.

Each to their own I say.

SS

 

[SloopJonB]

I've never understood the mentality of penalizing performance enhancing design factors when you are talking about a development rule like IOR.

Of course it makes sense in a handicapping rule but IOR wasn't that, it was a measurement rule which in my experience automatically makes it a development rule. All the negative stuff that IOR encouraged was in response to that whole concept - drop your rating faster than you slow the boat down, as A3A says.

Think what would have happened if performance enhancing factors had been rewarded instead.

 

[Nice!]

FFS people. There's a lot of rose-coloured glasses going on here (and other IOR nostalgia threads).

IOR boats were giant load-generating wipeout machines that cost cubic dollars and just dug big holes in the water. They were good in their time, but boats today are way faster, way more fun, with much less work and far less deck hardware.

Your misplaced nostalgia is in fact for a time when the world had more free time and more disposable income, which meant that more people had more boats racing on the water. Plus, if you raced IOR boats regularly you are quite likely over 50 by now, so you are also being nostalgic for a time when *you* were younger and could drink more beer and still sail the next day.

I'm not discrediting IOR boats. They had their time and place, and then sailing moved on to better things.

 

[RKoch]

FFS people. There's a lot of rose-coloured glasses going on here (and other IOR nostalgia threads).

IOR boats were giant load-generating wipeout machines that cost cubic dollars and just dug big holes in the water. They were good in their time, but boats today are way faster, way more fun, with much less work and far less deck hardware.

Your misplaced nostalgia is in fact for a time when the world had more free time and more disposable income, which meant that more people had more boats racing on the water. Plus, if you raced IOR boats regularly you are quite likely over 50 by now, so you are also being nostalgic for a time when *you* were younger and could drink more beer and still sail the next day.

I'm not discrediting IOR boats. They had their time and place, and then sailing moved on to better things.

And those terrible boats set regatta attendance records that modern boats for poseurs can only dream of.

 

[SloopJonB]

Edit to Regatta Participation.

Events like SORC, Admirals Cup etc. had hundreds of boats. Even just the top classes had dozens.

 

[PJ_Tabarly]

If IOR boats were so bad, why is my 1978 Gulfstar/Hood SORC racer cruiser runs circles around Beneteau/Hunter/C & C ?

 

[SloopJonB]

I've never understood the mentality of penalizing performance enhancing design factors when you are talking about a development rule like IOR.

Of course it makes sense in a handicapping rule but IOR wasn't that, it was a measurement rule which in my experience automatically makes it a development rule. All the negative stuff that IOR encouraged was in response to that whole concept - drop your rating faster than you slow the boat down, as A3A says.

Think what would have happened if performance enhancing factors had been rewarded instead.

Many dead sailors?

?? Why ??

It was largely the "low rating" abuses and distortions that caused the '79 Fastnet mess

 

[cill123]

Would you belittle a classic car run/race coz the cars dont have power steering or up to date electrics? The halfs & quaters still rate under irc and are competitive for their sizes so what the fuck if theyre 30 odd years old and still able to keep up with likes of x302s & 332s. The bigger ior boats might have been winch farms back in the day but these arent those boats. Theres plenty of crews and even an owner or two on those half ton boats at that event who got in at the end of ior or is even so young they missed ior totally and are loving their sailing.

 

[Jono]

Anyone who wants to get their heads around the differences between the distorted IOR shapes and the fair IOR shapes should read both The Shape of Speed (About Farr Yacht Design) or The Light Brigade by Gary Baigent, - with an honourable mention to Richard Blakey's A Lighter Ton.

 

[SloopJonB]

Additional to the old timers quote quote quote match going on above.

An important thing to remember is that IOR existed for a long time and IOR MK1 to MKIII with letters after the Roman numerals then back to an earlier version after no internal room for crews as all the ballast was in the cabin on top of hollow keels, means that some huge variations abounded. So in a thread like this cherry picking the glory or scary types does not change the fact that the two main party and bonkfest scenes were IOR and the Hobie life movements.

Good to hear from someone who knows what's important.

 

[wingssail]

but they were not good boats!

I disagree that they were (are) not good boats. Mine (Serendipity 43) has no bad habits. NONE. We've sailed and raced it for 30 years, in all kinds of conditions, including over 450 races and 55,000 cruising miles. It is still fast and still fun to sail. We've never (NEVER) had a downwind wipe out. Maybe round-ups a few times, but never a downwind broach. Upwind its able to hold it's own against, and outpoint, similarly sized newer spirit boats with more sail area and longer waterlines. OK, they blow by us on kite reaches but if the course has a downwind leg, and the breeze is up, we bear off and square the pole and we're faster to the bottom mark. I'll never forget being on the start line with 16 two tonners, racing level under IOR, that was really exciting, but now we sail PHRF and other systems and we do fine. In the end, in mixed fleets, we win our share.

We sailed double handed in brutal conditions all over the world, mostly using a windvane, and never had a problem handling the boat. I could tell you stories which would make you shudder, but the boat took care of us every time.

Yes, the newer boats are faster in some conditions, and it's obviously more fun to go planning across the bay at 20 kts, than it is to be stuck in a big hole in the water going 9 knots, and yes we definitely need more crew to race the boat, crew who have develop skills and work well together and work hard to race; the new boats are easier to sail, but that's progress. New cars are better than old ones too, but that doesn't make the old classics bad. And these old boats are a bargain. I'd love to buy a TP52, but I can't afford it, and it wouldn't make a good world cruiser anyhow, so I'll just keep my old IOR war horse and keep buying sails, upgrading the hardware, and sailing and racing hard as we can, and the haters can just stuff it.

 

[Varan]

FFS people. There's a lot of rose-coloured glasses going on here (and other IOR nostalgia threads).

IOR boats were giant load-generating wipeout machines that cost cubic dollars and just dug big holes in the water. They were good in their time, but boats today are way faster, way more fun, with much less work and far less deck hardware.

Your misplaced nostalgia is in fact for a time when the world had more free time and more disposable income, which meant that more people had more boats racing on the water. Plus, if you raced IOR boats regularly you are quite likely over 50 by now, so you are also being nostalgic for a time when *you* were younger and could drink more beer and still sail the next day.

I'm not discrediting IOR boats. They had their time and place, and then sailing moved on to better things.

kind of like that old Chevy pickup with rusted out floorboards.

 

[RKoch]

Additional to the old timers quote quote quote match going on above.

An important thing to remember is that IOR existed for a long time and IOR MK1 to MKIII with letters after the Roman numerals then back to an earlier version after no internal room for crews as all the ballast was in the cabin on top of hollow keels, means that some huge variations abounded. So in a thread like this cherry picking the glory or scary types does not change the fact that the two main party and bonkfest scenes were IOR and the Hobie life movements.

at least the keels stayed on those internally ballasted boats.

 

[RKoch]

Additional to the old timers quote quote quote match going on above.

An important thing to remember is that IOR existed for a long time and IOR MK1 to MKIII with letters after the Roman numerals then back to an earlier version after no internal room for crews as all the ballast was in the cabin on top of hollow keels, means that some huge variations abounded. So in a thread like this cherry picking the glory or scary types does not change the fact that the two main party and bonkfest scenes were IOR and the Hobie life movements.

at least the keels stayed on those internally ballasted boats.

Drum in the 1985 Fastnet Race. the keel fell off and capsized. NOT a regular thing like the numerous modern keel failures though!

Drum wasn't internally ballasted, which was your complaint. It was a construction flaw in keel, not IOR related, and boat was recovered repaired and raced in the Whitbread with no further problems.There were issues for a few years with rudders and masts breaking, but that was builders adapting to new technologies, and likely would have occurred regardless of rating rules. The 'downwind gyrations' was a holdover of the old RORC hull forms the first few years of IOR. The later designs were much more manageable. I did quite a few miles on a Holland 40 that was pretty docile downwind, and a DB2 I sailed after that was a blast downwind.

 

[SloopJonB]

Drum was the first time I ever heard of it happening and it was an error by the foundry (reputedly not J'ing the bolts) rather than design flaws and pushing the envelope too hard like all the incidents now.

Re: the old Chevy pickup comparison - which would you rather have?