LB 15
Cunt
Yachts that don't sail offshore should have their nav lights confiscated. If they want to sail W/L's they should buy an etchells.
too much?
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Thigh high
Member
W/L in OD is like a Chess match... no need to change the board. Example: nothing better than racing on the Gorge W/L in a OD class. But last W/E we sailed in the PNW a P2P (35 miler) "Duamish Head". There was all walks of life on the line. Forecast: SE winds to start switching to NW and later back to SE with a chance of snow!! Last year they stopped the race at 1pm and there was a huge outcry! IT'S a PTP!!! This year we finished in the dark and I can guarantee that those that raced it had a wonderful time! There must have been about 5 "restarts" during the race, but it didn't matter.
Point being, for the pure tactical aspect of racing nothing beats OD on a W/L but it's EXTREMELY elitist! It's very daunting for a newby to step up to the line of a OD fleet. But P2Ps are for the masses. It's more about the journey then the results. It's the test of "one's meddle". In the PNW, the largest fleets are the "Cruiser/white sail". They usually start 30min ahead with the crew looking like they are ready to sail to Alaska and the mains with the triple reefs!! Most have never done W/L or OD.
The PNW have got it right with RTC, Race the Straits, Winter Vashon, Blakely Rock, Scatchet Head, Southern Sound Series, Center Sound Series, as well as the more well known Swiftsure and Southern Straits. This is the kind of events that need to be encouraged.
Point being, for the pure tactical aspect of racing nothing beats OD on a W/L but it's EXTREMELY elitist! It's very daunting for a newby to step up to the line of a OD fleet. But P2Ps are for the masses. It's more about the journey then the results. It's the test of "one's meddle". In the PNW, the largest fleets are the "Cruiser/white sail". They usually start 30min ahead with the crew looking like they are ready to sail to Alaska and the mains with the triple reefs!! Most have never done W/L or OD.
The PNW have got it right with RTC, Race the Straits, Winter Vashon, Blakely Rock, Scatchet Head, Southern Sound Series, Center Sound Series, as well as the more well known Swiftsure and Southern Straits. This is the kind of events that need to be encouraged.
Que
Member
Here in the PNW, "jungle races" have a unique feature in that that currents make a HUGE difference in the results. Having your casually crewed 4KSB sail around a 4.2KSB just because you were able to read and react to the currents/conditions better is an incredible thrill. Races in this area like RTC, N100, Straights, Swiftsure are interesting because the crew has to read and adapt to the course conditions....I think there's a sense of improved seamanship from these events as opposed to the fine-tuning of technical execution that is a key in a W/L program.
Personal experience...we made a single open ocean gybe (and planned it for a good hour ahead of the event) and perhaps only 10/12 near short tacks/gybes during 12+ days of racing Vic-Maui last year....not one minute of that race was boring!
Personal experience...we made a single open ocean gybe (and planned it for a good hour ahead of the event) and perhaps only 10/12 near short tacks/gybes during 12+ days of racing Vic-Maui last year....not one minute of that race was boring!
Weyalan
Super Anarchist
Suggesting a correlation between entries for the Fastnet and disillusionment with w/l racing seems disingenuous to say the least.
+1
shanghaisailor
Super Anarchist
Wow - a forum thread that hasn't degenerated into cat-calling and requests to see private parts - I'm impressed.
Seriously though, thanks for your input. I do agree W/L have a place, whatever the type of boat you race but every damn weekend?
It does seem that, although nearly hung, the jury does favour more variety than we, as the 'customers' (the sailors), currently get.
Having said that and having been on the other side of the fence as umpire and race officials, it is much easier to reset a course with a W/L when there is a wind shift. On the other hand with a NON W/L, as long as the start line is true, with a round the cans type race the need to change marks is less important, it is just that the wind angle on each leg will be skewed a little and of course on a point to point or passage race it doesn't matter anyway.
A minor point perhaps but with concerns regarding (globally) falling numbers in our sport we should look at ever area to see how we can improve.
Here in China it is not a problem (yet) as the sport is so young that most participants are not returning to their 10th (or more) year of a W/L fest at every regatta but, for example,k at China Cup which has just surpassed 10 years the round the island course generally gets significant positive feedback.
Anyway, thanks once again for your input.
See ya on the water
SS
Seriously though, thanks for your input. I do agree W/L have a place, whatever the type of boat you race but every damn weekend?
It does seem that, although nearly hung, the jury does favour more variety than we, as the 'customers' (the sailors), currently get.
Having said that and having been on the other side of the fence as umpire and race officials, it is much easier to reset a course with a W/L when there is a wind shift. On the other hand with a NON W/L, as long as the start line is true, with a round the cans type race the need to change marks is less important, it is just that the wind angle on each leg will be skewed a little and of course on a point to point or passage race it doesn't matter anyway.
A minor point perhaps but with concerns regarding (globally) falling numbers in our sport we should look at ever area to see how we can improve.
Here in China it is not a problem (yet) as the sport is so young that most participants are not returning to their 10th (or more) year of a W/L fest at every regatta but, for example,k at China Cup which has just surpassed 10 years the round the island course generally gets significant positive feedback.
Anyway, thanks once again for your input.
See ya on the water
SS
NORBowGirl
Super Anarchist
- 1,674
- 160
What a perfect place for jungle racing, love it! Looks a lot like scandinavia als, I'd feel right at home there. Just send me a ticket.You can't go past the Bay of Islands Sailing Week in the north of New Zealand. With 144 islands and a host of other natural features the courses are a pure delight. Almost 100 entries at this stage and kicking off in about a week.
http://bayofislandssailingweek.org.nz
shaggybaxter
Super Anarchist
Yep. That's just looks stunning Webfish, can you scrounge up a few tickets?
Mizzmo
Anarchist
Shanghai- I think you are right, a mix is good. I only get three or four days a year of short course racing, the rest is in the 20mi+ raider type format. It is very fun, but I find I miss close tactical racing. My favorite format for regattas is one that mixes it up. Southern Bay Race Week(end) is a good example. ILYA Put-In-Bay is another. Windward lewards in the harbor the first day, Long distance the second, and medium length triangles in the chesapeake bay the third.
One problem though is how to score. SBRW scores by race which tends to minimize the impact of the longer races, I would prefer they score by the day.
One problem though is how to score. SBRW scores by race which tends to minimize the impact of the longer races, I would prefer they score by the day.
LionessRacing
Super Anarchist
As noted if you are sailing an Opti or other level rated class then W/L is a great test of tactics and boat handling.
If you sail with various ratings, W/L is generally tedious, though cleaning out a pair of port gybe J-105's coming into a leeward mark, singlehanding a Bermuda -40 Yawl on starboard gybe was rather "fun" even with the 100 sec/mile differential.
If you sail with various ratings, W/L is generally tedious, though cleaning out a pair of port gybe J-105's coming into a leeward mark, singlehanding a Bermuda -40 Yawl on starboard gybe was rather "fun" even with the 100 sec/mile differential.
G
Guest
Guest
Falling participation has very little to do with the courses, its more related to the cost of ownership, the huge amount of competing activities, weekend commitments for parents (no not all sailors are 20 something singles) gender balancing ( the significant other is no longer happy to carry the can while you go sailing all day) the lack of response by clubs to the demographic time bomb of aging boomers....
Harbour racing is fun but no one likes parades except old men on cruisers or those who race as an excuse to get back to the bar, everyone else who isn't a distance freak loves beating, starting and mark rounding.
Harbour racing is fun but no one likes parades except old men on cruisers or those who race as an excuse to get back to the bar, everyone else who isn't a distance freak loves beating, starting and mark rounding.
fucket
Anarchist
Bump-n-Grind
Get off my lawn.
and whichever way round you went last year, go the other way this year..I chair a small race in a format similar to the 3-bridge Fiasco. It's a triangular course around gov't marks but the skippers can decide which direction around the course they'd like to go.
Skippers generally choose a direction that agrees with the strengths of their boats. It's always fun to see who "reads the wind" the best and hear the stories at the after-party, such as why someone chose a particular direction and why the decision may not have panned out. It rarely turns out to be a reaching parade.
I uh... (cough) won my division (singlehanded/spinnaker) last year.
I'm not against w/l though. Any good club will offer a healthy mix of race formats to entice skippers across the spectrum to bring their boats out.
I did that with this race over a 6 year span in the J30 and won it every year.
that's a great race btw, for any other Annapolis area sailors .....
contact Ajax for more info and schedule info!!!
Robin
Anarchist
In a number of other threads I have tried to make the point that all of the anecdotal reasons for falling participation (too costly, competing activities, wrong courses, gender balancing, cannot find crew, and many more) are just that "anecdotal". Until we as a sailing community really devote ourselves to gathering actual facts from non sailors or former sailors it will be difficult to find a cure. The answers of course may well depend and vary by geography.
Robin
Robin
Anarchist
PS.
As it happens, in my opinion (not fact) course configuration and an over emphasis on "pure" windward--leeward racing has diminished participation.
Robin
As it happens, in my opinion (not fact) course configuration and an over emphasis on "pure" windward--leeward racing has diminished participation.
Robin
Running w/l circles can simplify event management if you are doing a day of races, and then finishing with beer and party.
Boats are kept in a relatively small arena and RC has better control to group fleet end of race day times. Wind builds, run another race, wind dies then shorten and send them in.
Odd shape / fixed buoy races are more likely to string out the fleet, leaving boats to just head to their home port at the end of the day.
In a lot of cases the host club is counting on food & beverage sales to cover the cost of RC equipment (maintenance and gas) and paying or feeding the RC people.
Boats are kept in a relatively small arena and RC has better control to group fleet end of race day times. Wind builds, run another race, wind dies then shorten and send them in.
Odd shape / fixed buoy races are more likely to string out the fleet, leaving boats to just head to their home port at the end of the day.
In a lot of cases the host club is counting on food & beverage sales to cover the cost of RC equipment (maintenance and gas) and paying or feeding the RC people.
LionessRacing
Super Anarchist
when the J-105 don't recognize you are also racing, (even with the backstay pennant) and you are on starboard, and you hail loudly, and they keep coming on port, worrying about their take downs... And you gybe in a controlled arc, while bringing the genoa, main and mizzen across and end up with your shrouds 2 feet from the mark, driving a 1962 20,000 lbs boat. They have a choice to either hit you and stove in their prods/bows, or clean out of the rounding, the boat that tried to squeeze between had to go above the mark, the boat that went outside, just had a longer path in the wind shadow to traverse. Got a nice apology from both skippers after the race, but during the rounding there was excitement. One of the reasons that W/L for multiple classes without offsets and gates are a pain.
fucket
Anarchist
How's it get that close without an overlap?
G
Guest
Guest
LionessRacing
Super Anarchist
I was on starboard and had been for > 5 mins, Wind was 10-15 kts.
Crossed 2 boat lengths zone (2004 was old zone) before they arrived.
(very different boat speed of a Bermuda-40 broad reaching under genoa and a J105 with A-sail. perhaps 5 vs 10 kts)
My rounding required gybe; allowed to be "tactical" e.g. what would be done in absence of others, which I did, starting wide and ending on the mark.
And hailing LOUDLY that I was going to gybe, tactically, ending on the mark and there would be NO ROOM.
No overlap at zone, them on port= no rights at mark
Crossed 2 boat lengths zone (2004 was old zone) before they arrived.
(very different boat speed of a Bermuda-40 broad reaching under genoa and a J105 with A-sail. perhaps 5 vs 10 kts)
My rounding required gybe; allowed to be "tactical" e.g. what would be done in absence of others, which I did, starting wide and ending on the mark.
And hailing LOUDLY that I was going to gybe, tactically, ending on the mark and there would be NO ROOM.
No overlap at zone, them on port= no rights at mark
