too much?

[Ajax]

Can you elaborate on the scavenger hunt race?

 

[Guest]

Everyone hates soldiers courses, you need passing lanes. If you lost the start on a reaching course, c ya later loser. all you can do is hope the leaders fall into a hole or have a major fuck up.

Is it a one-leg reaching course? No marks to round, no legs on different points of sail?

It's still amusing how many people think that the only alternative to W/L racing is courses with nothing but beam reaches.

Off course they dont, but unfortunately it is often the case that harbour courses or round the cans are run on set times and dates which may not agree with the wind direction. One legged beats are not beats and reaches truly emphasise the rich get richer principle, yes you can pass on a reach, if you have better gear, trim better, work the tides etc but mostly its a parade. For old fat fucks in their captain hats driving boats with two heads, that's a wonderful thing, but if you want to get down and dirty W/L's are the way test your crew and boat handling.

They're the best way to test your crew proficiency at tacking, gybing, mark-rounding, pointing, and your ability to play the polars. In other words, they're the best way to test exactly the skills that they require.

Likewise a reach is the best way to test reach tactics (yes, they exist), reaching sail trim, current play, and sail choice for the point of sail, in other words, exactly the skills that a reach requires. If the rich get richer on a reach, then maybe those guys are better at reaching.

I'm also at a loss to know how "a one-legged beat is not a beat." That's an absurd statement.

W/L racing is great but to act like it's the only kind of racing is macho chest-thumping bullshit, and at times I've seen it coming from people who are really just sour-graping the fact that they sometimes get beat on courses that aren't strictly W/L.

No one is saying that its the only way to go, but the OP and others are whining about how w/l's are the end of the sport. You other statements are just argumentative blather

 

[trimfast]

Can you elaborate on the scavenger hunt race?

Spit balling here, but perhaps you have to race to different locations and take pictures with an object. Whether it is another vessel, or mark, or different class competitor, etc. I have heard of some races where they drop pumpkins in the water and you have to race to the patch, pluck one from the water, and bring it home. But, literally, I am up for anything fun. Shit, put a committee boat with a floating water toy off the back with bottles of rum and make the competitors jump ship and swim for once and get back on the boat and race home. That would be fun.

 

[shanghaisailor]

Having started this thread with the piece on the front page I am surprised by a number of elements.

1. Most obviously it is one of the few threads that haven't degenerated into "show us your t***"

2. No one has vilified me for the suggestions

3. Having gone through the responses I am amazed by the huge majority that, where a preference was expressed, sailors actually preferred other than W/L - around 5 or 6 to 1

I used the Fastnet rapid entry in the FP article only because it was what got me thinking and I certainly agree that for many sailors it is a bucket list item. I had a narrow escape with the '79 race but that is another story. 600 miles is too long for many(perhaps most) sailors but an alternative to W/L doesn't necessarily mean a P2P. My old club in Scotland used a multitude of laid race marks and navigation marks laid around the estuary so angles from mark to mark could be dead upwind, dead down wind or any point of the compass in between.

Add to that a tide that was sometimes 'ripping' and the sail choice when approaching a mark and then the actual course to steer once round the mark became quite a discussion point wind direction, tidal offsets, crew strengths - the whole lot.

All this in the 2-3 hours of an evening race so not necessarily long distance or P2P, in fact the start finish line was at the end of the breakwater right outside the marina.

There are many things to be discussed, looked at, worked on if we are to reverse the trend of decline in some areas. Here in China we are fortunate that numbers are going up but part of that is the relative novelty there is in racing and the sailing population is certainly very young to the sport compared to the west but the challenge is enjoyable and great to see increasing number - long may it continue and yes, at the likes of China Cup (100 + boats) talking to sailors, in the main the Round the Islands races are more popular than the W/L.

Anyway - see ya on the water and thanks for the meaningful input

SS

 

[LionessRacing]

I was on starboard and had been for > 5 mins, Wind was 10-15 kts.

Crossed 2 boat lengths zone (2004 was old zone) before they arrived.

(very different boat speed of a Bermuda-40 broad reaching under genoa and a J105 with A-sail. perhaps 5 vs 10 kts)

My rounding required gybe; allowed to be "tactical" e.g. what would be done in absence of others, which I did, starting wide and ending on the mark.

And hailing LOUDLY that I was going to gybe, tactically, ending on the mark and there would be NO ROOM.

No overlap at zone, them on port= no rights at mark

To continue the off topic excursion, I think you may have just admitted you were wrong on two counts.1. If you were broad reaching, your overlap would have reached much further than you think back up the course, and considering you had been on the same tack for 5 minutes and that the other boats were sprit boats broad reaching on port, it is most likely that the overlap was established way before the zone - probably closer to when you first gybed onto starboard.

2. Unless it was different back in 2004, mark room does not give you the right to do a "tactical" rounding. It only gives you room to sail to the mark and round it. Sailing further than necessary on starboard and then a late gybe to go "Wide in, narrow out" is taking more room that you are entitled to.

Also, port or starboard is irrelevant at a leeward mark if there is an overlap.

Do the math.

Starboard gybe approach,

with gybe to round = port rounding.

at zone first

means inside/ahead vs any port gybe approach.

 

[Guest]

Cant seem to make sense of that scenario

 

[ColinG]

Assuming you were Yellow.

Pos 1 you were overlapped with green

Pos 2, you were overlapped with both green and blue

Both overlaps started outside of 2 boatlength circle, which would be between positions 2 an 3.

You needed to give Green room and were entitled to room from Blue.

Becasue you are not AT the mark, nor gybeing around it, 18.4 does nto apply and you are entitled to continue on starboard as far as you like.

However, once you gybed, Blue only needed to give you room to sail to the mark whilst giving green room and you were not entitled to take blue wider than necessary for this.

 

[Robin]

Assuming you were Yellow.

Pos 1 you were overlapped with green

Pos 2, you were overlapped with both green and blue

Both overlaps started outside of 2 boatlength circle, which would be between positions 2 an 3.

You needed to give Green room and were entitled to room from Blue.

Becasue you are not AT the mark, nor gybeing around it, 18.4 does nto apply and you are entitled to continue on starboard as far as you like.

However, once you gybed, Blue only needed to give you room to sail to the mark whilst giving green room and you were not entitled to take blue wider than necessary for this.

3 boat length circle

 

[Guest]

From LR's description I cant see how an overlap did not exist prior to him entering the zone, unless he was going so much slower than the 105's and that he was miles ahead when he reached it. But given that he mentions them having to avoid collisions and him shutting the door, I would say he was definitely overlapped or perhaps being a touch Walter Mitty.

 

[ColinG]

Was a 2boat length circle at time of incident (2004)

 

[Raz'r]

Whew, ran Laser races Saturday. Must've burned 10 gallons of petrol chasing the wind with the mark placements. Wind was oscillating to beat the band. Was resetting the line during the race to square the finish, moving the next mark quickly before the lead guy got to the prior mark, etc, etc, etc

Deserved the after-racing beer.

 

[shaggy]

The number one reason I hate W/L are those days where the race committee believes setting a finish to windward is appropriate. In OD maybe, but in PHRF it is bullshit as the strengths and weakness of boats do not equal out on a 5 leg race. IMHO, even legs, or no race. Who cares if the finish is further from home when it means it is the most fair. 40 foot upwind killer against a light 30 foot downwind sportsboat does not make even racing. Fix small problems with W/L and I will be more on board. Yes, I race both OD and PHRF so I hear everyone saying race OD.

List of problems in sailing as I see it

1. Unequal legs in W/L

2. W/L Race committees who love burning 4 races as fast as possible without a breather or adequate time for lunch. (I don't even eat on the water, but Christ, seeing my makes stuff a sandwich down the hatch as fast as possible because RC decides lets start a race 2 mins after finish sucks) This decreases fun for a lot of people.

3. W/L Stagnate RC who does not adjust course nearly enough.

4. All races - Shitty regatta parties. I mean come on, we all get we can drink mount gay and the same old beer, but at least make them fun and a change of pace some times. This may actually increase participation.

5. Make some more fun races on the schedule other than reg p2p and W/L. Scavenger hunt race. Pursuit Races. First to different legs on p2p get a bottle of rum. etc

6. Camaraderie between boats. Sure we know most other people, but until you get all the crews mixing there is more we can do. Have crew battles at the regatta party with fun events or something.

Always wanted to do a crew switch night, where skips put name in hat and crew choose skip(they race on skips boat). Maybe only 1 night a month or something, but it would sure make the OD fleets bond.... and you learn how other boats work as well...

 

[trimfast]

The number one reason I hate W/L are those days where the race committee believes setting a finish to windward is appropriate. In OD maybe, but in PHRF it is bullshit as the strengths and weakness of boats do not equal out on a 5 leg race. IMHO, even legs, or no race. Who cares if the finish is further from home when it means it is the most fair. 40 foot upwind killer against a light 30 foot downwind sportsboat does not make even racing. Fix small problems with W/L and I will be more on board. Yes, I race both OD and PHRF so I hear everyone saying race OD.

List of problems in sailing as I see it

1. Unequal legs in W/L

2. W/L Race committees who love burning 4 races as fast as possible without a breather or adequate time for lunch. (I don't even eat on the water, but Christ, seeing my makes stuff a sandwich down the hatch as fast as possible because RC decides lets start a race 2 mins after finish sucks) This decreases fun for a lot of people.

3. W/L Stagnate RC who does not adjust course nearly enough.

4. All races - Shitty regatta parties. I mean come on, we all get we can drink mount gay and the same old beer, but at least make them fun and a change of pace some times. This may actually increase participation.

5. Make some more fun races on the schedule other than reg p2p and W/L. Scavenger hunt race. Pursuit Races. First to different legs on p2p get a bottle of rum. etc

6. Camaraderie between boats. Sure we know most other people, but until you get all the crews mixing there is more we can do. Have crew battles at the regatta party with fun events or something.

Always wanted to do a crew switch night, where skips put name in hat and crew choose skip(they race on skips boat). Maybe only 1 night a month or something, but it would sure make the OD fleets bond.... and you learn how other boats work as well...

Only works if everyone likes the fleet. I would give my left nut to make sure I didn't get stuck with the screamer in the fleet.

 

[Varan]

Having started this thread with the piece on the front page I am surprised by a number of elements.

1. Most obviously it is one of the few threads that haven't degenerated into "show us your t***"

2. No one has vilified me for the suggestions

3. Having gone through the responses I am amazed by the huge majority that, where a preference was expressed, sailors actually preferred other than W/L - around 5 or 6 to 1

I used the Fastnet rapid entry in the FP article only because it was what got me thinking and I certainly agree that for many sailors it is a bucket list item. I had a narrow escape with the '79 race but that is another story. 600 miles is too long for many(perhaps most) sailors but an alternative to W/L doesn't necessarily mean a P2P. My old club in Scotland used a multitude of laid race marks and navigation marks laid around the estuary so angles from mark to mark could be dead upwind, dead down wind or any point of the compass in between.

Add to that a tide that was sometimes 'ripping' and the sail choice when approaching a mark and then the actual course to steer once round the mark became quite a discussion point wind direction, tidal offsets, crew strengths - the whole lot.

All this in the 2-3 hours of an evening race so not necessarily long distance or P2P, in fact the start finish line was at the end of the breakwater right outside the marina.

There are many things to be discussed, looked at, worked on if we are to reverse the trend of decline in some areas. Here in China we are fortunate that numbers are going up but part of that is the relative novelty there is in racing and the sailing population is certainly very young to the sport compared to the west but the challenge is enjoyable and great to see increasing number - long may it continue and yes, at the likes of China Cup (100 + boats) talking to sailors, in the main the Round the Islands races are more popular than the W/L.

Anyway - see ya on the water and thanks for the meaningful input

SS

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