Trading?

ProaSailor

dreaming my life away...
6,106
794
Oregon
Maybe the question should be, "how fast would I really like to be going in the current sea state?" If its flat water, yes please, I'll go as fast as possible without flipping. If it's sporty and I'm with some hardy souls who enjoy that kind of thing then let the games begin!
It doesn't have to be flat water for speed to be a safety factor. Watching Ryan Finn sail the 36' proa Jzerro north off the coast of Chile after rounding Cape Horn, frequently averaging between 10 to 12 knots, it was obvious that speed was an advantage as he was battered by storm after storm with "waves in excess of 20 feet". It sure helps though, in those conditions, to have a bigger boat.

I remember sailing the 76 foot catamaran Double Bullet II from Kauai to Marina Del Rey (1995) when we hit a 24 hour stretch of 18 foot seas. As I recall, boat speed was in the high teens which allowed us to steer comfortably around breaking waves, choosing a safe path rather than wallowing and being hit by them.
 

Sidecar

…………………………
3,144
1,507
Tasmania
Well, Mr. Car, do you believe that 2.5% number?
No I don’t and the fact that my boat is a proa doesn’t change the difference between two hulls and three as far as Texel is concerned. But I would be happy with the bonus if I was rated for Texel.

The indicative Texel variation was a comparative response to the Neel claim that a tri is 1.5 (ie 50% ) faster than a catamaran….. And as I indicated above, OMR and MOCRA say there is no speed difference between them.
 

Lykke

Member
90
23
So Cal
The choice is not between O5X and R60, but between O45 and R60.

It’s the usual weighted average of speed, living space / comfort, and $$$. And in their case, also marketing opportunities, remaining interesting, relevant, and standing out.

I think R60 fits. The rest is $ negotiation.
 

munt

Super Anarchist
1,231
247
The belt
Like I said, if i weren't so damn ugly id be right up in there with em. Safe to say any of those boats is better than coal mining. Looking forward to seeing the Rapido at speed!
 

bushsailor

Anarchist
693
193
QLD Australia
It is not about the speed of the boat but about the speed in light to moderate winds.
I dont think anyone likes sailing in more than 20kn offshore so a really good cruising boat will sail fast in less than 20kn.
The Rapido will be twice as fast as the existing boat in say 10kn of wind.
An example of this is we just completed a ocean passage in a boat of similar speed to the Rapido of 860nm in 3 days.
Wind was never above 15kn. We hand steered during the day at around 15 to 20kn boat speed and let the autopilot do its thing at night at between 10 and 15kn. (We don't let the boat do more than 15kn at night)
Sea state was flat with no spray coming over the boat. We never put a kite up, just used furling sails.
I have a video but it is too large to attach here.
 
TV show aside, the Rapido 60 may be lighter and wider and potentially faster than a 5x, but we forget that a cruising boat gets loaded with crap. Someone on a 40ft boat has almost the same amount of stuff as someone on a 60 ft boat. I don't buy that tris are better at going to weather than a decent sailing and well built cat. A cat with decent bridge deck clearance will not slam. The motion for all boats will be a bucking bronco if they're going to weather at anything greater than 12 knots of boat speed upwind in less than 50 AWA. A loaded tri is going to put a lot of strain on that leeward ama. Not sayin that it cannot take it, I'm saying that the ama will take serious strain in serious sea states. It does not have the buoyancy of a large cruising cat hull. Who's faster when sailing with a cruising load, I'm not really sure frankly?

I'd take an Outremer 5x over a Rapido 60 if cruising, they're not even close comparisons IMHO. If pure out speed is required, put me on a Mod 70.

Now a Dashew boat definitely goes to weather, but then you've got that gimballed stove and all to deal with ;)
Totally agree with you regards your points on cats going to windward, I also notice that (with my cat, which has plenty of underwing clearance) that it cops the largest slams when running and reaching in a confused sea.
Hey @bushsailor , did you go to Noumea for the regatta again? If you put your video on YouTube could you please post a link.
 

SeaGul

Super Anarchist
1,361
106
Oslo Norway
Ok - you are a famous YTer - but its been more and more of them sailing on nicer and nicer cats - what do you do? Get the most badass commercial boat there is - the Rapido 60... that will be special in the YT sailing world - even there has been such before - ref. Sailing Spirit... And as some said- its the light wind sailing that is most important - good speed when nothing else moves... and nice filming; to getting good shots its so much more possibilities with a trimaran and it will look spectacular.
 

mpenman

Member
251
234
Pompano Beach
It is not about the speed of the boat but about the speed in light to moderate winds.
I dont think anyone likes sailing in more than 20kn offshore so a really good cruising boat will sail fast in less than 20kn.
The Rapido will be twice as fast as the existing boat in say 10kn of wind.
An example of this is we just completed a ocean passage in a boat of similar speed to the Rapido of 860nm in 3 days.
Wind was never above 15kn. We hand steered during the day at around 15 to 20kn boat speed and let the autopilot do its thing at night at between 10 and 15kn. (We don't let the boat do more than 15kn at night)
Sea state was flat with no spray coming over the boat. We never put a kite up, just used furling sails.
I have a video but it is too large to attach here.
So about 280 mile days in reaching conditions if it was exactly 3 days?
A well built catamaran of similar size will do similar speeds.
Must be my crappy luck but I always find the sea state is never really flat in winds over 15 knots. Off the wind sea state is not as important.

For Ocean passages motoring speed has serious value too.
 

MultiThom

Super Anarchist
1,748
394
Benicia, CA
Absolutely. We have a medium weight multi and sailing at 20 knots SOG in 40 kn winds with 3-4m seas at an AWA of 90 is far more 'comfortable' than sailing at 55AWA into the same conditions at 9 kn. With the latter... you are literally airborn 5% of the time when going forward of the mast down below. I doubt this family sails to windward often?
It does seem that this sort of comment is common for actual cruise boat owners. Comfort is more important than speed. Makes sense, why beat up yourself or your boat? You wouldn't be on a boat if you had to be somewhere.
 

Airwick

Member
491
229
Victoria, BC
It will be very interesting for me to see if the Rapido actually outperforms the Outremer in any meaningful way
Pretty sure it will attract more clicks, which is the only performance metric that actually matters!

I don't buy that tris are better at going to weather than a decent sailing and well built cat
Regardless of construction, bridgedeck cats just have more windage which is why they get their best VMG footing off more than a tri. Also the tris have different hull shapes on the main hull and amas so don't have to compromise as much on hull shapes (between reducing pitching and being able to tack) so tend to pitch significantly less going upwind in a chop.

The 5X is a much much "bigger" boat than the Rapido, so yes it will be more roomy for cruising... The Rapido will have less inside space than the 4x they are on now, but will sail significantly faster (and faster than the 5X as well).
 

mpenman

Member
251
234
Pompano Beach
Regardless of construction, bridgedeck cats just have more windage which is why they get their best VMG footing off more than a tri. Also the tris have different hull shapes on the main hull and amas so don't have to compromise as much on hull shapes (between reducing pitching and being able to tack) so tend to pitch significantly less going upwind in a chop.

The 5X is a much much "bigger" boat than the Rapido, so yes it will be more roomy for cruising... The Rapido will have less inside space than the 4x they are on now, but will sail significantly faster (and faster than the 5X as well).
I don't disagree on the speeds IF they sail at different weights. I think that the Rapido 60 will be loaded down far more than most care to admit with cruising stuff. There is no doubt that the tri will be faster if lighter, but I just don't believe that to be the case, In every single cruising boat I have ever been close to they're packed to the gills with cruising stuff. The tri is at a disadvantage already based on inside space as you noted.
Both loaded with the same stuff, I've got my money on the 5x on long voyages.
 

Airwick

Member
491
229
Victoria, BC
I don't disagree on the speeds IF they sail at different weights. I think that the Rapido 60 will be loaded down far more than most care to admit with cruising stuff. There is no doubt that the tri will be faster if lighter, but I just don't believe that to be the case in every single cruising boat I have ever been close to.

Right, I see what you are getting at...
I haven't really watched any of their vids so I don't know how much "stuff" they are lugging around but you would presume they would bring everything over with them...

That said, the 4X is also a fairly "light displacement" boat (compared to condo cats) so they would have had to show some restraint already. The centralized systems in a tri make it easier to keep the platform weight down (much less duplication of "stuff" from engines to plumbing and electrical) so the end result would be a higher ratio of payload/empty weight, which should be fine as long as it's designed to carry the weight but also more sensitive as 20% more crap on board is a bigger proportion of the total weight and therefore larger percentage of overloading.

I haven't looked at the numbers in detail but it looks like the Rapido should have a decent payload as it's not a super skinny racing hull. If the (main) hull lines are anything like a scaled up Farrier/Corsair, it should be able to handle some weight without bogging down too much.

Couldn't resist having a quick look:
4X is quoted as 8.2 -11.1, or 2.9T payload and R60 is 10-12, so only 2T payload or almost 33% less than the 4X. That seems heavy for the R60 considering it's an all carbon build with only one engine etc... That said I had forgotten how short the bridgedeck is on the 4X.
Of course these are from the specs on the website so would be interesting to see what actual weights are (and digging in what's included in there)
 

munt

Super Anarchist
1,231
247
The belt
Mr. Bushsailor, you said, "twice as fast" in light air... You sure you wanna say twice as fast? Twice? I'd put money against that. Maybe 10%, maybe 20%, maybe more but not twice. If the Outremer is doing like 6-8 I don't think the tri is going to be doing 12-16. Somebody prove me wrong for goodness sake!
 

bushsailor

Anarchist
693
193
QLD Australia
Totally agree with you regards your points on cats going to windward, I also notice that (with my cat, which has plenty of underwing clearance) that it cops the largest slams when running and reaching in a confused sea.
Hey @bushsailor , did you go to Noumea for the regatta again? If you put your video on YouTube could you please post a link.
Yes we did the Groupama race again. Fantastic experience with fantastic people and the french are not biased against multihulls.
Here is a link to that video:

around 12kn of wind (no white caps or waves) 20 to 21 kn boat speed. Most people have no idea what cruising a high performance boat is like which is the point of my original post and I guess is what have made Riley buy one.
 

bushsailor

Anarchist
693
193
QLD Australia
Mr. Bushsailor, you said, "twice as fast" in light air... You sure you wanna say twice as fast? Twice? I'd put money against that. Maybe 10%, maybe 20%, maybe more but not twice. If the Outremer is doing like 6-8 I don't think the tri is going to be doing 12-16. Somebody prove me wrong for goodness sake!
What the video
 

bushsailor

Anarchist
693
193
QLD Australia
TWA around 110 to 120
AWA 45 to 55
The instruments were not calibrated correctly.
Those were the conditions for the whole trip. Having speed means you can select exactly what weather you want to sail in because you do not need a long time for passages.
Personally I dislike sailing in more than 20kn of wind downwind and max of about 12kn upwind.
 

munt

Super Anarchist
1,231
247
The belt
Man, that vid depicts some idyllic sailing! Really cool. But wait, that's a cat in that vid! I still stubbornly hold to my original thesis that an Outremer would be going pretty well in those conditions and not 1/2 the speed of a similar-sized Rapido (though I have no real evidence to back that up). I might have to start posting in Political Anarchy...
 

ProaSailor

dreaming my life away...
6,106
794
Oregon
around 12kn of wind (no white caps or waves) 20 to 21 kn boat speed
That would be very impressive if true...? What boat? (looks like RUSHOUR? eight people on board)

Looks like mostly monohulls with only three multihulls (in the order they finished):
  1. RUSHOUR (Longueur : 15.3 m, 50.2 feet, catamaran) - Drew Carruthers - First To Finish
  2. OCEANS TRIBUTE (Longueur : 15 m, Crowther trimaran) - Guy Chester
  3. KALOLO (Longueur : 17.2 m, catamaran) - Judicaël Hillion
At 280 NM per day, your average speed was 11.7 knots, right? So there must have been some light spots?
Too bad the video is in portrait mode, wasting most of the screen.


Groupama Race: Line Honours Finish
LIVE for the Line Honours finish of Rushour, Drew 15 Catamaran, in the New Caledonia Groupama Race! This is their second win on Line Honours, the first was in 2018, the last time they took part in this race.
Massive congratulations to the crew, Drew Carruthers, Becky Moloney, Andrew McCole, David Renouf, David Richardson, Jim Close, Stuart Cox, and Trevor Brown. Great job to stay ahead of the Santa Cruz 72 over at least 300nm of upwind sailing!
Finish time: 3d 13h 42m 43s
Wait, 654 NM total race length / 85.7 hours = 7.63 knot average speed? (654 / 3.57 days = 183 NM per day)

YB tracker: https://yb.tl/ncgr2022
 
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bushsailor

Anarchist
693
193
QLD Australia
That would be very impressive if true...? What boat? (looks like RUSHOUR? eight people on board)

Looks like mostly monohulls with only three multihulls (in the order they finished):
  1. RUSHOUR (Longueur : 15.3 m, 50.2 feet, catamaran) - Drew Carruthers - First To Finish
  2. OCEANS TRIBUTE (Longueur : 15 m, Crowther trimaran) - Guy Chester
  3. KALOLO (Longueur : 17.2 m, catamaran) - Judicaël Hillion
At 280 NM per day, your average speed was 11.7 knots, right? So there must have been some light spots?
Too bad the video is in portrait mode, wasting most of the screen.



Wait, 654 NM total race length / 85.7 hours = 7.63 knot average speed? (654 / 3.57 days = 183 NM per day)

YB tracker: https://yb.tl/ncgr2022

You are looking at the race not the delivery. (We are not talking about racing in this thread) When you do a race you do not get to chose the conditions, the whole point of this, with a fast boat you do get to select what weather you sail in on deliveries.
We did not have eight on board for the delivery.
Another point to your post which needs correcting is we actually sailed 900nm in the race to avoid some large wind shadows.
Have a look at the GPS speed in the video.....
There where some light spots in the race and delivery but the point I was trying to make is a faster boat opens up more options and safer passages which I am guessing is why they are looking at the Rapido. Double the speed is probably an exaggeration but I am sure most people get the idea.
 




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