Tragic youth sailing accident

[Kevlar Edge]

I'm sorry but no offense you all are talking about complete bullshit. Who cares what should have been done or what you would have done. The fact is a little kid was out there having fun and their life was tragically cut short. Yes we can all be Captain highndsight and talk about what we would have done better but that doesn't help anything. I grew up in the JSA and taught in the JSA. Who ever grew up in that sailing community can agree that it has only gotten safer over the years. When I was a kid I'm surprised no one got taken out by a prop or broke their neck jumping off the worry wort. When I was a sailing instructor I happened to have saved a kid's life and still wake up at night thinking about what if I didn't. Anyone over 30 that grew up in the JSA can probably think of times that were absolute stupidly. And that's just the JSA. What about those same kids that happened to get a ride on a big boat. Sailing is an extreme sport. Skateboarding you might break an ankle or an arm but sailing is not only physically tough but mentally as well. What happened was absolutely terrible and no one deserves that. The worst thing we can do as a dwindling sailing community is sit here and point fingers and blame. Doing this will only hurt the sport more. We need to offer our support, anyway we can, and keep figuring out a way to make one of the most extreme sports in the world also the safest. 

I apologize if this is a rant but this is coming from a past JSA sailor and a past JSA instructor as well as a father that plans on passing this amazing sport to my kids. 

+1 well said ODB

 

[shanghaisailor]

Quite a rant Mr Bowsprit AND from a Newbie as well.

Once you have been a member of the Anarchy community a bit longer you will realise it would be hard to find a forum group with a greater collective knowledge of our sport so "All of us "talking about complete bullshit" is not only highly unlikely but completely inaccurate. If you worry about what if and what ifn'ts (I know it's not a word by the way but if Mr Trump can make them up so can I) you are in the wrong sport. I am well beyond the age of 30 as many of my fellow Anarchists are well aware and we have (most of us) got away with things that - in the modern 'let's not take a risk of firing up those good old adrenal glands' world - would be classed as "stupidity" but at the time were bloody good fun - oh boy they were fun, I have a few scars to prove it.

I do agree however that "pointing fingers and blaming" is not the right thing to do but I can see little evidence of that in the thread above - read what is being said, not what you think or want to have been said.

Don't scatter gun your responses it is neither fair and certainly NOT accurate.

Just sayin

'SS

 

[Steam Flyer]

I'm sorry but no offense you all are talking about complete bullshit. Who cares what should have been done or what you would have done. The fact is a little kid was out there having fun and their life was tragically cut short. Yes we can all be Captain highndsight and talk about what we would have done better but that doesn't help anything......

On the contrary, rational discussion and evaluation can help prevent this from happening again.

Looking thru this thread again, I don't see any of the things you're ranting about. Certainly nobody is blaming the instructor, or finger-pointing.

But hey, this is the interwebs. Have fun, knock yourself out.

We have a youth sailing camp starting this morning, I am going to spend some time talking with the instructors and at the very least, renewing their commitment

FB- Doug

 

[Snaggletooth]

We have a youth sailing camp starting this morning, I am going to spend some time talking with the instructors and at the very least, renewing their commitment

FB- Doug

wisheng you smoothe sailleng.

 

[Hobie Dog]

On the contrary, rational discussion and evaluation can help prevent this from happening again.

Looking thru this thread again, I don't see any of the things you're ranting about. Certainly nobody is blaming the instructor, or finger-pointing.

But hey, this is the interwebs. Have fun, knock yourself out.

We have a youth sailing camp starting this morning, I am going to spend some time talking with the instructors and at the very least, renewing their commitment

FB- Doug

Thank you Doug! Like you I don't see anybody blaming the instructor or finger pointing in this thread.

Maybe the Newbie is not the sharpest tool in the shed???

Have fun with your camp!

 

[Hobie Dog]

Can you help right a dinghy from a jet-ski? I don't know. I'm a safety boat RIB driver, I've never even been on a jet ski. In practice, the main role of a safety boat isn't "swimmer assistance", it is to help tired crew right their boat. Abandoning a boat to bring sailors ashore is possible but very unusual.

Yes in theory you could help right a dinghy from a jet-ski but it's not the best platform for it. You really only can stand up facing forward or aft. There really is not good place to put your feet to sand sideways like in a boat and then you might end up going for a swim as well. For assisting surfers they are great but it would not be my choice for a sailing safety boat. A jet boat would be a much better platform if not having a prop was a requirement. However, I don't think they handle as well as a propeller driven boat. I have never even seen a jet drive outboard in service let alone driven a boat with one so have no idea how they perform.

 

[A guy in the Chesapeake]

On the contrary, rational discussion and evaluation can help prevent this from happening again.

Looking thru this thread again, I don't see any of the things you're ranting about. Certainly nobody is blaming the instructor, or finger-pointing.

But hey, this is the interwebs. Have fun, knock yourself out.

We have a youth sailing camp starting this morning, I am going to spend some time talking with the instructors and at the very least, renewing their commitment

FB- Doug

Hope you have a safe, fun and successful event, Steamers - good onya for spending the time. 

 

[kent_island_sailor]

I am really a powerboater who doesn't sail much anymore.  Used to teach adult sailing and have towed a lot of Sunfish etc.  Props and swimmers are a hazard in the teaching scenario but similar issues with pulling skiers or tubers.  Both realistically require powering to get the tow rope to the person in the water.  In a perfect world you would shut off the motors and drift/paddle to the person in the water.  But that also diminishes your control of the boat - no steering either.  Most people I know just put the motors in neutral.  I literally  cannot recall ever seeing a prop guard on any boat.  If you know there are swimmers in the water it helps to have someone(s) keeping them in sight, a bit like an MOB situation.

Someone falling out of a boat poses different problems, surprise, no time to react, etc.  Condolences to all involved.

FYI some engines will still move the prop in neutral. My Mercruiser I/O skiboat did and I would shut down when people were boarding from the water. Speaking of waterskiing, the standard pickup procedure that is second nature to any ski boat skipper that gets the line back to the skier without ever aiming the boat right at them is something I did not realize everyone did not learn at a young age until I got a blank look telling a new kid to "do a ski pickup" to get a line to someone in the water.

 

[yoyoboy]

Question on motor opperation: 
Will the prop slow down faster if the kill switch is pulled with the engine in gear? My initial thought is yes, because the momentum in the prop will be consumed by pushing the engine cylinders.
Anyone with more engine experience know the answer?

 

[kent_island_sailor]

Yanking the cord is faster than slowing down and shifting into neutral for sure if for no other reason than you have one less move to make and you can do it faster. OTOH you now have no control of the boat. If a person falls from a moving powerboat, IMHO nothing is fast enough to help except maybe instantly steering hard *toward the side they fell off* to shove the stern AWAY from the swimmer. A RIB is short enough that you pretty much would need to be already turning as they went in though.

 

[kent_island_sailor]

I'm sorry but no offense you all are talking about complete bullshit. Who cares what should have been done or what you would have done. The fact is a little kid was out there having fun and their life was tragically cut short. Yes we can all be Captain highndsight and talk about what we would have done better but that doesn't help anything. I grew up in the JSA and taught in the JSA. Who ever grew up in that sailing community can agree that it has only gotten safer over the years. When I was a kid I'm surprised no one got taken out by a prop or broke their neck jumping off the worry wort. When I was a sailing instructor I happened to have saved a kid's life and still wake up at night thinking about what if I didn't. Anyone over 30 that grew up in the JSA can probably think of times that were absolute stupidly. And that's just the JSA. What about those same kids that happened to get a ride on a big boat. Sailing is an extreme sport. Skateboarding you might break an ankle or an arm but sailing is not only physically tough but mentally as well. What happened was absolutely terrible and no one deserves that. The worst thing we can do as a dwindling sailing community is sit here and point fingers and blame. Doing this will only hurt the sport more. We need to offer our support, anyway we can, and keep figuring out a way to make one of the most extreme sports in the world also the safest. 

I apologize if this is a rant but this is coming from a past JSA sailor and a past JSA instructor as well as a father that plans on passing this amazing sport to my kids. 

WTF are you going on about

Most of us are directly involved in patrol boat work around kids, used to do it, have kids doing it, or are in clubs that do it. Most or all of this thread is about how to not repeat this at our own clubs. Take a chill pill and come back if you have any ideas we can use.

 

[Steam Flyer]

Hope you have a safe, fun and successful event, Steamers - good onya for spending the time. 

Thanks- we ended up doing only a small amount of actual drill, but had a great conversation about priorities and imperatives. One of them came up with the comparison to a stick of dynamite... don't light the fuse until you are one million percent CERTAIN you can toss it away. Don't hit the throttle until you are one million percent certain the prop is clear.

At one point during the conversation, I compared it to pulling the trigger on a gun, but that is not a good comparison for them because none of them have ever handled firearms. OTOH they do have experience with a lot of other potentially painful activities... pain is Mother Nature's way of telling you, "Hey you really fucked up." Pain is more certain to get the point home than danger, especially with young people, especially danger to others. Our instructor/coaches are all good kids, and they all have very strong commitment. It's just human nature to become complacent over time, and to occasionally neglect details. The supervisor's job is to make sure this stays at a minimum!

WTF are you going on about

Most of us are directly involved in patrol boat work around kids, used to do it, have kids doing it, or are in clubs that do it. Most or all of this thread is about how to not repeat this at our own clubs. Take a chill pill and come back if you have any ideas we can use.

Yes! Always looking for good ideas. We drilled on throttle control and using the kill lanyard. It's ironic that a sailing instructor's main job requires them to be an expert motorboat driver. And you can't make anything 100% safe, not with equipment, not with drill. But you want to go for a sweet spot of X amount of equip/drill providing maximum safety.

There have been 3 fatalities in youth sailing during the time I have been involved: two were trapeze entrapment, now this prop strike. All were preventable. The question is, how do you impose reasonable amounts of practice for safety without rendering the whole thing ponderous & non-fun?

FB- Doug

 

[mustang__1]

Yes in theory you could help right a dinghy from a jet-ski but it's not the best platform for it. You really only can stand up facing forward or aft. There really is not good place to put your feet to sand sideways like in a boat and then you might end up going for a swim as well. For assisting surfers they are great but it would not be my choice for a sailing safety boat. A jet boat would be a much better platform if not having a prop was a requirement. However, I don't think they handle as well as a propeller driven boat. I have never even seen a jet drive outboard in service let alone driven a boat with one so have no idea how they perform.

I also can't see a safe way to deal with an injured sailor with a jetski. I had one kid get a really good hit to the head and i ended up taking him into my coach boat to check him out on land and get him off the water (multiple coaches in vicinity to deal with my sailors). He was fine, but that would have been tough on a ski. Same if there was ever a physical injury that made movement hard. 

 

[pbd]

To answer a previous question regarding outboard jets, the efficiency is significantly below a standard prop.  It's been awhile since I did any comparison but IIRC it was about a 35% hit to use the jet.

 

[Hobie Dog]

WOW! If your data is correct you would have to hang a 200 with a jet to get the performance of a 130 with prop.

 

[Rasputin22]

Hobie,

     Sadly, that seems to be the case with the centrifugal pump used on those jet lower units. There are some axial flow units that doesn't waste efficiency by making water make that 90 degree turn coming up into the pump and then being directed aft for drive. 

 

[Blitz]

To answer a previous question regarding outboard jets, the efficiency is significantly below a standard prop.  It's been awhile since I did any comparison but IIRC it was about a 35% hit to use the jet.

Ive heard the 30ish percent loss also.  They also dont steer without power being applied and don't really have a neutral, reverse usually sucks  too.  It takes a bit of retraining to operate them safely.

 

[kent_island_sailor]

Combining what I see and my experience with various jet boats, expect a big budget hit with the patrol boats running into all kinds of things if they are jet powered.

 

[KC375]

Combining what I see and my experience with various jet boats, expect a big budget hit with the patrol boats running into all kinds of things if they are jet powered.

Why would that be? Is it because they are harder to manoeuvre?

 

[Hobie Dog]

In a word, yes!

Unless they have some sort of rudder, and I don't think they do, just like a jet ski you have no steerage unless you are applying throttle. And has been stated reverse generally sucks as well. They can be a real PITA to dock as well. Smash that dock!!!