Tragic youth sailing accident

[robalex117]

Do USN, USCG and DNR small boats use prop guards? They do a fair amount of rescue work so would seem to have a predictable general exposure to swimmers in the water.

Nice report by Gowrie Group on prop guards.  Interesting how many organizations require them.

http://www.uspowerboating.com/wp-content/uploads/Gowrie-Safety-Prop-Protectors.pdf

View attachment Gowrie-Safety-Prop-Protectors.pdf

 

[familysailor]

Nice report by Gowrie Group on prop guards.  Interesting how many organizations require them.

http://www.uspowerboating.com/wp-content/uploads/Gowrie-Safety-Prop-Protectors.pdf

View attachment 242803

Has anyone here used this product?

After a quick look at the website it seems the guard blocks access to the water intake louvers. It may make it difficult for clubs that flush their outboards with "earmuffs" after every session?

Any tips or thoughts?

 

[familysailor]

I found a lots of interesting info on this site:

http://www.propellersafety.com/

 

[Hobie Dog]

Has anyone here used this product?

After a quick look at the website it seems the guard blocks access to the water intake louvers. It may make it difficult for clubs that flush their outboards with "earmuffs" after every session?

Any tips or thoughts?

Well there is also the 'garden hose' attachment point but I am not sure on what size motors those start to show up on...

 

[hobie17li]

It seems like some of local ycs are getting prop guards. Any one have any experience with them and installing them our club has a 15, 20 ,30, 70 and 90 I think they are getting for. Are they easy to take off? Doug

 

[mustang__1]

Has anyone here used this product?

After a quick look at the website it seems the guard blocks access to the water intake louvers. It may make it difficult for clubs that flush their outboards with "earmuffs" after every session?

Any tips or thoughts?

why bother flushing everyday? If its getting used everyday its probably not going to accumulate too much buildup, right? I dont think i ever flushed a motor i knew i was going to use the next day. 

 

[pbd]

WOW! If your data is correct you would have to hang a 200 with a jet to get the performance of a 130 with prop.

My figures weren't speed but fuel consumption, they're thirsty bastards

 

[Hobie Dog]

why bother flushing everyday? If its getting used everyday its probably not going to accumulate too much buildup, right? I dont think i ever flushed a motor i knew i was going to use the next day. 

I would buy that. When I am using my boat often I generally don't flush her. If she is going to sit for a week or so then yea I'll run the muffs. When she is in the water I mostly use the garden hose attachment flush.

 

[familysailor]

why bother flushing everyday? If its getting used everyday its probably not going to accumulate too much buildup, right? I dont think i ever flushed a motor i knew i was going to use the next day. 

It's a good habit, no wondering when or if.

All boats aren't used daily. It depends on the group being coached and where they're training.....

 

[Steam Flyer]

It's a good habit, no wondering when or if.

All boats aren't used daily. It depends on the group being coached and where they're training.....

The one time you don't flush the motor and run the gas out of the carb is going to be the one time circumstances get in the way, and the boat sits a week / month or two.

You've heard the black box theory of good luck? A lot of flyers believe in it too. You do rote chores that are a PITA but dogmatic ally good, you get plus value in to the black box. When you need a bit of good luck, you draw value out of the black box. Never put anything in? You may not have any good luck on tap.

Personally I need all the luck I can summon. Although I believe firmly that it's bad luck to be superstitious

FB- doug

 

[Oz Scout Sailor]

Unless we are using them the next day definitely, we always flush. 

We have just ordered 2 Suzuki 30hp 4 stroke and they come with a hose attachment point. From memory it think most of the Suzuki 4 strokes, all the way down to 9.5, come with the hose attachment. that way we can do away with the muffs and fuel mixing. We can give the hose to a scout and say plug it in and clean the motor, without having to start it and worry about an prop accidentally turning. Plus it makes them easir to flush every day.

 

[bdu98252]

I'm sorry but no offense you all are talking about complete bullshit. Who cares what should have been done or what you would have done. The fact is a little kid was out there having fun and their life was tragically cut short. Yes we can all be Captain highndsight and talk about what we would have done better but that doesn't help anything. I grew up in the JSA and taught in the JSA. Who ever grew up in that sailing community can agree that it has only gotten safer over the years. When I was a kid I'm surprised no one got taken out by a prop or broke their neck jumping off the worry wort. When I was a sailing instructor I happened to have saved a kid's life and still wake up at night thinking about what if I didn't. Anyone over 30 that grew up in the JSA can probably think of times that were absolute stupidly. And that's just the JSA. What about those same kids that happened to get a ride on a big boat. Sailing is an extreme sport. Skateboarding you might break an ankle or an arm but sailing is not only physically tough but mentally as well. What happened was absolutely terrible and no one deserves that. The worst thing we can do as a dwindling sailing community is sit here and point fingers and blame. Doing this will only hurt the sport more. We need to offer our support, anyway we can, and keep figuring out a way to make one of the most extreme sports in the world also the safest. 

I apologize if this is a rant but this is coming from a past JSA sailor and a past JSA instructor as well as a father that plans on passing this amazing sport to my kids. 

Sorry but sailing is not an extreme sport and the accident statistics back this up. Sailing is on average comparable to cycling from a injury and death perspective. So whilst giving a 6 year old a foiling moth might be extreme I doubt there are that many people with the funds and stupidity to believe this is a good idea. What is dangerous is the ideology that safety boats need to be present for all sailing activity and any hint of danger get full on the throttle and cut through a group of boats as it the current mode of operation for most rescue crews. People completely losing the plot about risks such as entrapment and ignoring the risk they add by having all these power boats blasting around or involved in close contact with sailors in the water is pretty dumb. Teaching kids about handling there boats and getting out of likely problems before they occur is a much better solution than the Baywatch solution currently being employed.   

 

[DavidG]

The RYA provides advice on the use of prop guards, but the key point is "Prevention is better than Cure" ... see http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/training/Training Notices and Guidance/Training Guidance/TG01-13 Prop Guards.pdf

My take on it is that prop guards are not the panacea for the reasons outlined in the article.

As a professional involved in the testing of RIBs to different regulations, I have real reservations about design trends, which may have little relevance to this tragic incident; particularly about the design and operation of throttle controls, which are difficult to secure in neutral and can result in non-progressive accelerations.

 

[PropellerSafety]

The RYA provides advice on the use of prop guards, but the key point is "Prevention is better than Cure" ... see http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/training/Training Notices and Guidance/Training Guidance/TG01-13 Prop Guards.pdf

We have been closely following many aspects of boat propeller safety since 1990 (PropellerSafety.com) including those making pro or anti statements about the use of propeller guards.

It is well known that propeller guards are an emotionally charged issue among those in the boating industry just like gun control, abortion, illegal immigrants, and President Trump are currently to the broader U.S. population.

It is similarly well known many current media outlets have taken political positions on the topics above and slant their news to suit their political agenda.

Over the years we have seen many statements from RYA concerning the use of propeller guards. RYA is a great organization with a great history and has done much for boating safety. However, we feel those in control of issuing statements and comments surrounding the use of propeller guards at RYA are pretty fixed in their position and less than open to new ideas and some of the newer products entering the marketplace (guards and other propeller safety devices).

If you read the statement at RYA on the use of propeller guards we suggest you also read statements from other organizations on propeller guards in applications similar to youth sailing coaching and escort boats to gain a more balanced viewpoint, just like if you watch CNN news  or FOX News all day we suggest you watch the other outlet now and then to get a more balanced perspective.

Others in the forum previously mentioned the statement by Gowrie:

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2013_gowrie_prop_safety/07/prweb10917681.htm

below are a few more"

NSW Maritime (basically the Coast Guard for New South Wales Australia)

**************

The Australian Navy "Australian Book of Reference ABR 5128 Policy and Operating Instructions Manual for the Australian Navy Cadets" copyright 2016 includes this rule:

note- ANC refers to Australian Navy Cadets

23.7
All safety/power boats used in ANC activities, whether Commonwealth or USC/TS owned, are to be fitted with approved full-cage ‘Pesa style’ propeller guards at all times. The propeller guard must encapsulate the propeller to ensure safety of personnel when the safety/power boat is operating near persons in the water.
Safety/power boats used in ANC activities are not to be used unless an approved full-cage "Pesa style" propeller guard is fitted."
*********************
Similarly, the Government of South Australia and Swimming Australia issued a policy statement "Propeller Safety Guards for Use on Craft Primarily for Rescue, Assistance and Supervision in DECS Aquatic Centres" in March 2010. for the consideration and implementation of the use of propeller guards on their vessels used for these tasks, along with guidelines for their manufacture, commissioning, and maintenance.
 
note - DECS is the Department of Education and Children's Services in Australia  (now the department of education and child development)
note - we do not see DECS any longer providing experiences requiring powered vessels
**********************
See page 29 of Surf LifeSaving (Australia) the organization of those running RIBs on the coast as life saving boats. They identify the specific guards they approve.
https://apps.sls.com.au/sites/sls.com.au/files/u55/slsa-approved-gear-equipment-manual-2014-september_v2.pdf
****************
We are just suggesting you do not totally make propeller guard decisions for youth sailing applications based on RYA's statements.
 
Many of our examples of statements by others come from Australia. Before you say, that's for Australia, you might want to recall RYA's voice comes from outside the USA as well.
 
Thanks for listening.
 
gary
 
PropellerSafety

 

[fastyacht]

Having been a sailing instructor, as well as being a naval architect, I will support the thesis that prop guards are a good idea. Most of the time, you are not going fast as a coach. "Bollard Pull" conditions are more common--manoevering at zero or low speed. At low speeds and especially at low speed high thrust, nozzles increase efficiency. I think it is more than possible that you could actually save fuel overall using an appropriately designed nozzle for coaching.

I will however note that once you put a "full cage" on you will almost certainly negate any gains.

DavidG mentions nonprogressive throttle. That is without a doubt another seriously important aspect. This is not always due to the throttle. Crappy ethanol fuel leads to this problem too. Until congress repeals that ethanol law, we are stuck with it.

 

[WGWarburton]

Hi,

          Good post PropellerSafety... I hope that we're in agreement that it's not a simple issue and a decision about the use of guards needs to be made with careful consideration of the risks inherent in the particular environment and application the boat is intended for,  not mandated (either by government or other organisation) in a knee-jerk reaction to a particular tragedy.

Cheers,

              W.

 

[Steam Flyer]

Having been a sailing instructor, as well as being a naval architect, I will support the thesis that prop guards are a good idea. Most of the time, you are not going fast as a coach. "Bollard Pull" conditions are more common--manoevering at zero or low speed. At low speeds and especially at low speed high thrust, nozzles increase efficiency. I think it is more than possible that you could actually save fuel overall using an appropriately designed nozzle for coaching.

I will however note that once you put a "full cage" on you will almost certainly negate any gains.

DavidG mentions nonprogressive throttle. That is without a doubt another seriously important aspect. This is not always due to the throttle. Crappy ethanol fuel leads to this problem too. Until congress repeals that ethanol law, we are stuck with it.

One of the things I have emphasized with the junior coaches I work with is shift/throttle control. They are all great sailors but learning to drive a motorboat is different and can be difficult; I dunno if it's easier to teach people who are familiar with driving a car.

But it's absolutely imperative that the coach/safety boat driver be VERY familiar and comfortable with maneuvering the boat at low speeds, shifting, and the throttle rate... many throttles have a 'dead spot' and suddenly goose the the stern of the boat. This can easily lead to all sorts of accidents. I teach the instructors to rest their arm or wrist on the throttle casing, and use only part of the hand/fingers/thumb from a position that is fixed relative to the throttle lever. That way, they can't suddenly loose balance and jam on the gas, or accidentally goose the engine because of less-precise control movement. This seems to be a foreign notion to most motorboat drivers.

The way I see it: putting on a prop guard can't possibly make the boat -more- dangerous; but it doesn't necessarily make the boat less dangerous because the odds of prop strikes are fairly low.

FB- Doug

 

[fastyacht]

I presume that prop guards dramatically reduce the chance of fatality. However it's worth examining what could still happen. For instance an arm or hand may go into a simple guard type and asphyxiation may still occur if a strap is pulled in and round tightly. It's still possible that you would have a fatality with a nozzle type guard, but my gut sense is that it's a dramatic reduction in the possibility and that it's really absolutely worth using them.

 

[familysailor]

One of the things I have emphasized with the junior coaches I work with is shift/throttle control. They are all great sailors but learning to drive a motorboat is different and can be difficult; I dunno if it's easier to teach people who are familiar with driving a car.

But it's absolutely imperative that the coach/safety boat driver be VERY familiar and comfortable with maneuvering the boat at low speeds, shifting, and the throttle rate... many throttles have a 'dead spot' and suddenly goose the the stern of the boat. This can easily lead to all sorts of accidents. I teach the instructors to rest their arm or wrist on the throttle casing, and use only part of the hand/fingers/thumb from a position that is fixed relative to the throttle lever. That way, they can't suddenly loose balance and jam on the gas, or accidentally goose the engine because of less-precise control movement. This seems to be a foreign notion to most motorboat drivers.

The way I see it: putting on a prop guard can't possibly make the boat -more- dangerous; but it doesn't necessarily make the boat less dangerous because the odds of prop strikes are fairly low.

FB- Doug

+1

 

[Steam Flyer]

I presume that prop guards dramatically reduce the chance of fatality. However it's worth examining what could still happen. For instance an arm or hand may go into a simple guard type and asphyxiation may still occur if a strap is pulled in and round tightly. It's still possible that you would have a fatality with a nozzle type guard, but my gut sense is that it's a dramatic reduction in the possibility and that it's really absolutely worth using them.

Agreed, if you have a prop guard it makes a prop strike fatality much much less likely... problem is, that's a pretty rare circumstance. Of 2 the other youth sailing fatalities reported in the last decade (total of 3) the other two were rigging entanglement in a capsize. I don't know what other forms of accidents have been suffered, it would be very interesting to hear about European and Australian youth accident reports; from a standpoint of preparing for the real hazards rather than imagining what-might-go-wrong scenarios.

Familysailor, thanks.

FB- Doug