Roy166808
Member
not compliment pretty sure lol
Trapeze harness rule change locked in!
- Thread starter Jethrow
- Start date
Scillyjosh
Member
Not compliment with the ISO standard and having used an RWO hook for a few years it managed to both jam up and not release and also had it eject on me while trapezing. It's truly a terrible product.
Mozzy Sails
Super Anarchist
Yup, none of those are compliant, and the RWO system I used back in 2005-2009 the hooks wore a grove which prevented release within a few sails. They also randomly released a few times.
@JulianB I don't think anyone is being flippant about the risks. They are obviously there and if we can do something to remove them then great. But, is the ISO the solution? It doesn't recognise other solutions to the problem (keyball, velcro release) and if there is no investment from WS to get it kick started can anyone have faith in the rule changes / ISO after about 15 years of mess.
Instead of spending £000s on moving office, maybe WS could have put some of that into R&D grants.
RYA 2007 report following death of Laser 400 sailor (hook on shroud)
RYA 2005 report in to entrapment (30% of entrapment due to some part of the trapeze harness)
@JulianB I don't think anyone is being flippant about the risks. They are obviously there and if we can do something to remove them then great. But, is the ISO the solution? It doesn't recognise other solutions to the problem (keyball, velcro release) and if there is no investment from WS to get it kick started can anyone have faith in the rule changes / ISO after about 15 years of mess.
Instead of spending £000s on moving office, maybe WS could have put some of that into R&D grants.
RYA 2007 report following death of Laser 400 sailor (hook on shroud)
RYA 2005 report in to entrapment (30% of entrapment due to some part of the trapeze harness)
JulianB
Super Anarchist
I doubt very much you really want the bureaucracy of WS to be involved.
They have enough issues just trying to manage the sport let alone worry about a single issue, even if it's important.
This is down to the industry, I have done my bit, I think, it would be very very sad if I was the only one with an original thought.
And I know that not to be true. I will refine the "key-ball" initiative given were Allen went and new science.
What we as a sport, need to do is give these things a go and be pro-active rather than negative.
They have enough issues just trying to manage the sport let alone worry about a single issue, even if it's important.
This is down to the industry, I have done my bit, I think, it would be very very sad if I was the only one with an original thought.
And I know that not to be true. I will refine the "key-ball" initiative given were Allen went and new science.
What we as a sport, need to do is give these things a go and be pro-active rather than negative.
FD Sea Dog
Member
Have the ISAF say which Manufactures are compliant and Who's are not compliant with the ISO 10862 standard.
The onus (duty) is upon Them, They set the Rule.
The bottom line is: Buying a Quick Release is a lot cheaper than paying for a Funeral (Maybe Your Own!)
Yeah - I bought the RWO Quick Release system with a Rooster Harness, and Yes it was expensive (Bought Two & Helmets)
But when making that decision at the time, I realized that this is the direction the Sport has taken.
And yes the RWO-QR may be obsolete now (even though it's new), Some Rules are not backward compatible.
Didn't want to show up to a Regatta and be disqualified before Putting-In the Water.
Its like the Formula 1 Halo Roll Bar and NASCAR Hans Device. Gotta Have it these Days.
If you must Blame someone, then blame the Product Liability and Injury Attorneys.
Eventually things will evolve.
The onus (duty) is upon Them, They set the Rule.
The bottom line is: Buying a Quick Release is a lot cheaper than paying for a Funeral (Maybe Your Own!)
Yeah - I bought the RWO Quick Release system with a Rooster Harness, and Yes it was expensive (Bought Two & Helmets)
But when making that decision at the time, I realized that this is the direction the Sport has taken.
And yes the RWO-QR may be obsolete now (even though it's new), Some Rules are not backward compatible.
Didn't want to show up to a Regatta and be disqualified before Putting-In the Water.
Its like the Formula 1 Halo Roll Bar and NASCAR Hans Device. Gotta Have it these Days.
If you must Blame someone, then blame the Product Liability and Injury Attorneys.
Eventually things will evolve.
Foredeck Shuffle
More of a Stoic Cynic, Anarchy Sounds Exhausting
The ball solution seems to be the obvious evolution for now.
Surprised that the Rooster harness looks like it does, compared to my old Zhik T2 its finish is cruder, and the velcro release seems less than ideal. Going to wait for a ball harness to come back into stock here in the US, from Zhik or Allen. Wife has it on my xmas list now.
Ok, going to admit to something that has made me consider carrying reserve air. Reasons are that I'm sailing a skiff solo, often with no one else around, and I'm not the hard ass punk I used to be. I also had an interesting experience over a decade ago. Does anyone carry spare air?
I've been trapped under the sails of a 505 that crash gybed with little notice to avoid a hard collision, we went down on what had been our weather side. We saw the other boat obviously but it looked like they saw us and were going to duck, but something went wrong for them, they seemed to accelerate, everyone was planing. I ended up in the jib/spinnaker with the guy around an arm and a face full of sail, still attached to the wire and a violently bobbing bow. I used to surf a lot so I'm used to holding my breath while getting beat around the bottom so I'm guessing I was down for just a little more than a minute, my skipper thought two or more and was panicked trying to find me as the boat turtled. I popped up on the other side as I decided to dive down to free myself and came up at an angle that I guessed was away from the boat, I couldn't see very well. I was fine and climbed up the boat to start righting it but the skipper was still in the water at the bow and was hailing for help which was on the way by then. It was pretty windy and noisy, I didn't see him until I climbed up.
I honestly thought I was fine but the skipper was shaken up enough that we called it a day and went in for beers and a break down on what we could have done different. He was a super nice guy from France and treated me like his favorite brother the rest of the week. It did make me stop and think and I've always wondered how long I was really down? When I say surf, I used to chase storms on the east coast, when a tropical storm or hurricane goes by, the next day is always sunny with a nice hard left break and offshore wind, best of all the tourists are long gone. Unless there is a broken up house or two in the water it is some of the best surfing available one the US east coat. Because of doing that I practiced swimming Olympic length pools under water, often able to handle 1.5 lengths under or sit under water for more than two minutes. I still practice both. I've skin dived most of my life and occasionally scuba when younger. I don't panic under water. So how long was I down? I've read that free divers believe they are fine up until they lose consciousness and the safety divers take over.
Fast forward and I have a family and they deserve better than my regular adrenaline driven risk calculations. Divers carry emergency tanks, some carry an additional small spare air just in case they get it all wrong. This seems small enough to put on my lower back, there are smaller versions at 40 and 55 liters. What are the AC teams carrying?
Surprised that the Rooster harness looks like it does, compared to my old Zhik T2 its finish is cruder, and the velcro release seems less than ideal. Going to wait for a ball harness to come back into stock here in the US, from Zhik or Allen. Wife has it on my xmas list now.
Ok, going to admit to something that has made me consider carrying reserve air. Reasons are that I'm sailing a skiff solo, often with no one else around, and I'm not the hard ass punk I used to be. I also had an interesting experience over a decade ago. Does anyone carry spare air?
I've been trapped under the sails of a 505 that crash gybed with little notice to avoid a hard collision, we went down on what had been our weather side. We saw the other boat obviously but it looked like they saw us and were going to duck, but something went wrong for them, they seemed to accelerate, everyone was planing. I ended up in the jib/spinnaker with the guy around an arm and a face full of sail, still attached to the wire and a violently bobbing bow. I used to surf a lot so I'm used to holding my breath while getting beat around the bottom so I'm guessing I was down for just a little more than a minute, my skipper thought two or more and was panicked trying to find me as the boat turtled. I popped up on the other side as I decided to dive down to free myself and came up at an angle that I guessed was away from the boat, I couldn't see very well. I was fine and climbed up the boat to start righting it but the skipper was still in the water at the bow and was hailing for help which was on the way by then. It was pretty windy and noisy, I didn't see him until I climbed up.
I honestly thought I was fine but the skipper was shaken up enough that we called it a day and went in for beers and a break down on what we could have done different. He was a super nice guy from France and treated me like his favorite brother the rest of the week. It did make me stop and think and I've always wondered how long I was really down? When I say surf, I used to chase storms on the east coast, when a tropical storm or hurricane goes by, the next day is always sunny with a nice hard left break and offshore wind, best of all the tourists are long gone. Unless there is a broken up house or two in the water it is some of the best surfing available one the US east coat. Because of doing that I practiced swimming Olympic length pools under water, often able to handle 1.5 lengths under or sit under water for more than two minutes. I still practice both. I've skin dived most of my life and occasionally scuba when younger. I don't panic under water. So how long was I down? I've read that free divers believe they are fine up until they lose consciousness and the safety divers take over.
Fast forward and I have a family and they deserve better than my regular adrenaline driven risk calculations. Divers carry emergency tanks, some carry an additional small spare air just in case they get it all wrong. This seems small enough to put on my lower back, there are smaller versions at 40 and 55 liters. What are the AC teams carrying?
Spare Air
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FD Sea Dog
Member
I think 'Spare Air is a great idea !
(Late 90s) I was out with a Babe on the FD, Sailing The Potato Patch (That's the area of Sea between the Mouth of the San Francisco Bay and the Farallon Islands). It was a great Day and the Lady was enjoying the Trapeze. We were wearing 4mm Wet Suits, Harnesses, and PFDs. She was getting cold and I was getting hungry, so we headed in to eat at the Cliff House or Louie's. As we approached Ocean Beach (Playland) we passed the breakers (Surfers) and somehow got turned over and we were in the Drink. The problem was that my wet-suit was stretched/loose around the neck and it took on water, I was water Logged.
In addition the Tide was pulling into the San Fransico Bay and the Rip was sucking Us down the Beachline along with the Waves pounding Us.
A wave threw me down and I was under the curl for a time and hit back-of-the-head on the bottom, Crunching my Neck and Spine. It could been bad - A Broken Neck. Anyway and the GF got the Boat righted and on the Beach just before it would have hit the Rocks under the Cliff House.
I on the Other hand was struggling to get to the Beach, fully tanked with water. I didn't think I was going to make it out,
and People on the Beach had no-clue (I was Drowning).
Thank God the Pacific is cold water. The swelling from the whiplash of my Neck and Spine was minimized.
Spare Air would have been a great Lifesaver that day. I was lucky.
(Late 90s) I was out with a Babe on the FD, Sailing The Potato Patch (That's the area of Sea between the Mouth of the San Francisco Bay and the Farallon Islands). It was a great Day and the Lady was enjoying the Trapeze. We were wearing 4mm Wet Suits, Harnesses, and PFDs. She was getting cold and I was getting hungry, so we headed in to eat at the Cliff House or Louie's. As we approached Ocean Beach (Playland) we passed the breakers (Surfers) and somehow got turned over and we were in the Drink. The problem was that my wet-suit was stretched/loose around the neck and it took on water, I was water Logged.
In addition the Tide was pulling into the San Fransico Bay and the Rip was sucking Us down the Beachline along with the Waves pounding Us.
A wave threw me down and I was under the curl for a time and hit back-of-the-head on the bottom, Crunching my Neck and Spine. It could been bad - A Broken Neck. Anyway and the GF got the Boat righted and on the Beach just before it would have hit the Rocks under the Cliff House.
I on the Other hand was struggling to get to the Beach, fully tanked with water. I didn't think I was going to make it out,
and People on the Beach had no-clue (I was Drowning).
Thank God the Pacific is cold water. The swelling from the whiplash of my Neck and Spine was minimized.
Spare Air would have been a great Lifesaver that day. I was lucky.
maxstaylock
Anarchist
- 749
- 462
Most cats are pretty safe, as the sealed jumbo section masts prevent or slow inversion, would the simplest way to mitigate entrapment risk not be to make mast floats obligatory for monos? Used extensively in training, they have very little effect on performance? Most sailing schools here use them, even 29er kids use them for the first year or two. Bad for the ego, but hey, safety first?
Foredeck Shuffle
More of a Stoic Cynic, Anarchy Sounds Exhausting
Maxstaylock, Comfortable being called what ever. I have the below floats on my skiff and so far it has kept it from turtling, but I haven't truly wiped out yet such as a pitchpole, I haven't braved that much wind. I like to think I have experience but since I'm new to a 29er or any skiff and sailing solo, this just seems like a good idea. My ego is smaller than my desire to keep sailing into the sunset of decrepitude. Also I do not like the idea that I could flip, turtle, and bend/break the mast as we have a lot of thin water here. I do wish they were orange rather than yellow so they would match the sail.
I'd like to have some air on me, just a little bit more cushion. I'd like it to be refillable so I can practice using it and doing things like cutting lines under water while upside down. If anyone has an idea what the AC guys are wearing, that would be helpful.
I'd like to have some air on me, just a little bit more cushion. I'd like it to be refillable so I can practice using it and doing things like cutting lines under water while upside down. If anyone has an idea what the AC guys are wearing, that would be helpful.
Scillyjosh
Member
WS stipulating the quick release hook standard does feel like they decided on a solution without ever thinking around the whole problem!
From a design robustness perspective systems like the zhik velcro and the keyball remove a lot of the mechanical complexity associated with a quick release hook. Something which seems critical when designing for a harsh environments where equipment is poorly maintained and often contaminated with sand and silt.
I personally would like to try the keyball or similar systems (interested in seeing the developments you make @JulianB )in anger but again the cost to test is off putting. Maybe if @Allen_Sailing have them at a show it'd good to try! It's also not worth trying anything untill the rule either comes in or gets abounded.
Mast head floats and spare air also seem to detract from the problem minimising entrapment. You can still get caught on the low side trapped on a hook unconscious with a mast head float and spare air and it'd be a real battle for a crew to get you released. If you weren't hooked you'd at least have a better chance!
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Martin T
Anarchist
Entrapment doesn't just happen on trapeze boats.
I used to wear a PFD which had straps & buckles for size adjustment. Boat capsized & turtled, one of the straps at the back got caught in the kicker. Luckly there was an air pocket in the upturned boat so I was able to breathe whilst sorting myself out. Scared the shit out of me! Ever since then I've always worn a top of some sort over my PFD.
I used to wear a PFD which had straps & buckles for size adjustment. Boat capsized & turtled, one of the straps at the back got caught in the kicker. Luckly there was an air pocket in the upturned boat so I was able to breathe whilst sorting myself out. Scared the shit out of me! Ever since then I've always worn a top of some sort over my PFD.
JimC
Not actually an anarchist.
I fell out of love with floating masts when I was treading water in the middle of the Solent watching my boat skipping downwind half a mile away.
maxstaylock
Anarchist
- 749
- 462
"I fell out of love with floating masts when I was treading water in the middle of the Solent watching my boat skipping downwind half a mile away."
Better treading water and breathing air, than under boat and breathing water?
So you had prioritised not inverting over detachment risk, then you changed to prioritise not detaching? Were I sailing your boat on the same waters, I might have done the same.
We each make a risk assessment each time we sail, based on our class, and our sailing waters.
My class has very little risk of entrapment, as it has almost no risk of inversion, but the risk resulting from separation from my boat during a race is high, due to the chance of being run over by other fast moving boats, hence I prioritise reliability of trapeze equipment over the risk of entrapment.
If I sailed for example an 18 with open mesh nets on racks, I might prioritise trapeze hook entrapment as a risk, maybe a knife and a detachable hook and a well trained crew might mitigate the risk. It's horses for courses.
The risks we take on the water depend largely on the types of boat we sail, the risks of drowning, exposure, head injury, entanglement etc are class and sailor and venue specific, on some boats (foilers) helmets are sensible, whereas, eg on boomless boats, they are not.
ISAF trying to pass a one size fits all approach is ludicrous, I am glad they chose to push the ISO implementation back, it would be even better if they shelved it entirely, and instead focused on educating sailors of the risk, and mitigation measures, available, so each could make up their own mind on the best way to have a safe and enjoyable time on the water.
Better treading water and breathing air, than under boat and breathing water?
So you had prioritised not inverting over detachment risk, then you changed to prioritise not detaching? Were I sailing your boat on the same waters, I might have done the same.
We each make a risk assessment each time we sail, based on our class, and our sailing waters.
My class has very little risk of entrapment, as it has almost no risk of inversion, but the risk resulting from separation from my boat during a race is high, due to the chance of being run over by other fast moving boats, hence I prioritise reliability of trapeze equipment over the risk of entrapment.
If I sailed for example an 18 with open mesh nets on racks, I might prioritise trapeze hook entrapment as a risk, maybe a knife and a detachable hook and a well trained crew might mitigate the risk. It's horses for courses.
The risks we take on the water depend largely on the types of boat we sail, the risks of drowning, exposure, head injury, entanglement etc are class and sailor and venue specific, on some boats (foilers) helmets are sensible, whereas, eg on boomless boats, they are not.
ISAF trying to pass a one size fits all approach is ludicrous, I am glad they chose to push the ISO implementation back, it would be even better if they shelved it entirely, and instead focused on educating sailors of the risk, and mitigation measures, available, so each could make up their own mind on the best way to have a safe and enjoyable time on the water.
Irrational 14
Super Anarchist
A knife on the boat and a knife on your person. That's all that's needed. They need to ban wire trap lines before mandating the hook redesign.
Scillyjosh
Member
I'm more worried about getting hooked on the caps/lowers/shrouds than the trapeze wire
Irrational 14
Super Anarchist
The trap wire ties you to the boat. The other stays don't. Having a bailout strategy helps minimize weird situations.
SimonN
Super Anarchist
A few points on this.
I wouldn't be typing this today if the laser 5000 I was sailing 28 years ago had not turned turtle. The boat went over to windward, I got my hook caught on something on the wing and I was being held down. Thankfully, the boat turtled and I was brought back up to the surface about 5 seconds after I thought to myself "that's it. I am dead". I also know of a death in a 49er because the boat didn't turtle and the person was held down below the surface by the wing. If the boat had turtled, he might have survived. So don't think that stopping boats turtling is the answer
As for the problem being the trap wires rather than standing rigging, I believe that all the evidence says that is not so. Most entrapment where "rigging" is involved is with fixed rigging under high tension. I cannot remember a single death due to entanglement with trapeze wires. I do know of one near miss where a trap wire got caught around an ankle. The conclusion from that was that the problem was caused by using dynema rather than wire and the person involved will never sail with dynema trap lines again.
I wouldn't be typing this today if the laser 5000 I was sailing 28 years ago had not turned turtle. The boat went over to windward, I got my hook caught on something on the wing and I was being held down. Thankfully, the boat turtled and I was brought back up to the surface about 5 seconds after I thought to myself "that's it. I am dead". I also know of a death in a 49er because the boat didn't turtle and the person was held down below the surface by the wing. If the boat had turtled, he might have survived. So don't think that stopping boats turtling is the answer
As for the problem being the trap wires rather than standing rigging, I believe that all the evidence says that is not so. Most entrapment where "rigging" is involved is with fixed rigging under high tension. I cannot remember a single death due to entanglement with trapeze wires. I do know of one near miss where a trap wire got caught around an ankle. The conclusion from that was that the problem was caused by using dynema rather than wire and the person involved will never sail with dynema trap lines again.
FD Sea Dog
Member
I think a big problem is dealing with PANIC. Your drowning and tangled up (and are in an immediate capsize situation).
With any escape mechanism you are going to have to remember to use it.
In California we have a Public Service Radio Ad that reminds listeners that if you are in a Submerged Vehicle, remember the acronyms P.O.G.O.
The RWO-QR is much like a Seatbelt Release - whether it becomes second-nature to the Sailor will depend on experience.
All of the aforementioned Ideas are good (Spare Air, Knife, ROW, etc.) If you remember to use them and have them onboard.
PRO COMPRESSION BIB WITH SAFETY KNIFE
https://www.roostersailing.com/collections/men-highlights-combo-deals/products/pro-compression-bib-with-safety-knife
With any escape mechanism you are going to have to remember to use it.
In California we have a Public Service Radio Ad that reminds listeners that if you are in a Submerged Vehicle, remember the acronyms P.O.G.O.
POGO = Pop the Seatbelt, Open the Window, Get Out
The reasoning is that many Victims drown with their Seatbelt still on, because in the Panic they forget to POP (Un-Do) the Belt, get the Windows Down fast, so you can Get Out (Through the Window or Open a Door).The RWO-QR is much like a Seatbelt Release - whether it becomes second-nature to the Sailor will depend on experience.
All of the aforementioned Ideas are good (Spare Air, Knife, ROW, etc.) If you remember to use them and have them onboard.
PRO COMPRESSION BIB WITH SAFETY KNIFE
https://www.roostersailing.com/collections/men-highlights-combo-deals/products/pro-compression-bib-with-safety-knife
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JimC
Not actually an anarchist.
I had a similar experience, now I think of it. I had a trapeze hook catch on a reaching hook (pole kite days). Try dealing with that with a knife! Because the boat inverted I was able to get my head above water and sort myself out. Exceptions make bad law of course, but things are nuanced. I doubt a quick release hook would have released under the big torsional load in this case.
I too don't like all rope trapeze wires. Don't think I've ever seen all wire though. Usually the last few inches are rope and can be cut.
