Tri-Radials?

Ex Machina

Super Anarchist
1,384
657
New Zealand
There are two fareast 28s in NZ that probably came with factory sails but they sure as hell didnt use them …niksen in Auckland and kotuku ? In Tauranga 

 

Kevlar Edge

Super Anarchist
2,440
26
On the road
How do you guys deal with all the regurgitated shit that you spew on this subject for oh like 30 threads. Let’s throw away knowledge of the science and technical details of the build and just shoot bullshit opinions  that are always just the lunatic ravings of assholes stroking themselves. Bunch of wingnuts  rehashing the same shit again. It’s debilitating, and if you believe any of this you need to speak to a very experienced sailmaker and learn what’s real and what’s just silly opinions. 

 

Rudder_NZ

Member
169
50
How do you guys deal with all the regurgitated shit that you spew on this subject for oh like 30 threads. Let’s throw away knowledge of the science and technical details of the build and just shoot bullshit opinions  that are always just the lunatic ravings of assholes stroking themselves. Bunch of wingnuts  rehashing the same shit again. It’s debilitating, and if you believe any of this you need to speak to a very experienced sailmaker and learn what’s real and what’s just silly opinions. 
Thank you for your valuable contribution to the topic. Some of us were hoping the very experienced sailmakers on this forum could contribute to the discussion. 

 

Monkey

Super Anarchist
11,380
3,051
How do you guys deal with all the regurgitated shit that you spew on this subject for oh like 30 threads. Let’s throw away knowledge of the science and technical details of the build and just shoot bullshit opinions  that are always just the lunatic ravings of assholes stroking themselves. Bunch of wingnuts  rehashing the same shit again. It’s debilitating, and if you believe any of this you need to speak to a very experienced sailmaker and learn what’s real and what’s just silly opinions. 
So basically you have zero input to the conversation. At least actual opinions still provide information. 

 

Rudder_NZ

Member
169
50
I chose against getting sails for my Fareast28R from Far East Sails. I didn’t hear much good about them and the sails I have are very well made.
Is Far East Sails the same as the boat company? I assume so but I read on another forum they might not be. 
I guess I can be the Guinue pig then. I only need something for Rum Racing so happy with a $1000NZD sail delivered. I will update here once they arrive. My local sailmaker said not to bother getting him to make something as for my purposes I just need something cheap. When I get a mainsail done I will be going with my local guy or I also heard UK sails in Auckland is worth talking to. Especially for sports boat sails. 

 

George Hackett

Super Anarchist
quod umbra said:
Too many panels you say?

So when the first load path sails came about way back in the 80's, there were several different firms that seemingly developed them simultaneously. Of course Dr. Jerry Milgram sort of conceived the idea and wrote a paper on the "technology" while being part of Horizon Sails. Over at Ulmer Kolius one of their sailmakers kept making/designing tri-radial sails with more and more smaller panels. Don't remember exactly who was managing the loft at the time but they were allover this guy's case because of the amount of time involved cutting, sticking and sewing these monstrosities. He claims (and frankly I sort of believe him to a degree) that he decided to build a cross-cut sail and sew strips of Kevlar to it because what he noticed with his multi-panel tri-radials is they held their shape rather well for a longer time. He concluded this was due to all the seams acting as a skeleton or frame.
I was a rigger/electrician at the time and while out for a test sail remember seeing the very first of these out sailing. It was a bit eye catching. Not what you would call pretty, very rudimentary but definitely made you stare at it for a prolonged period of time.
Not long after UK merged or bought Horizon.... after some legal banter.....and Tape Drive became the first commercially available load path sails.

So don't knock "too many panels". 
All typed with a chuckle and smile on my face.......
Yes, Tape Drive is the grandfather of string sails. 
 

I remember having to make the tapes, stick and sew them down. Talk about time consuming compared to later when Bainbridge started making the tapes.  We had to clear the loft floor and then roll out Kevlar cloth the full length of the floor. Then run one inch sticky back tape the full length. Then cut to make one tape. Then do the next one. Ect ect ect.

after all the tapes are made, the Blank which is a Mylar sail in Cross Cut is laid out. Then you start the process of marking out the Tape Lines with loft battens based on computer generated waypoint on the sail. Then the Tapes would follow the penned Tape Line.

to lay down the tapes, it was best that you sat on the tape, use your toes to pre-stretch the Mylar as you peel the sticky back tape and then lay the tapes.  Then you bounce forward on you ass and then continue with the next stretch of tape laying.  
 

then all the tapes then had to sewn down as adhesives back then are not what they are today.  
 

so yes,  the first sails looked rudimentary, but man were they ballistic.  The first sail we made was a Genoa for a Baltic50. And that sail had deformed the SS Clew Ring! 

 

Frogman56

Anarchist
618
138
Sydney
Can we have some historical perspective re triradials?

Go back to the 'most untri-radial'. That would be Ted Hood.

Eighteen inch panel cross cuts, with much effort and expediture on, firstly trying to weave the fill yarns (the difficult axis) and heat set etc to achieve 'balanced' elongation with the warp axis. Fark!

But subsequent testing established that (probably around 1970 something) that almost 80% of the elasticity in a typical Genoa leech arose from within the seams. More fark!

So, by 1977 (Courageous defending AC against.. err Bondy's first misadventure) the US had some wide panel cross cut genoas, three ply with, say outside layers of 2.2 dacron and pure industrial Mylar between.

Then they (probably Robbie Doyle, mostly) figured out how to laminate Mylar with Kevlar.. so the first viable composites, say 1980? But still cross cut. 1980 AC, cross cut Kevlar genoas; a mighty leap forward anyway.

Fast forward to 1983... A11 wins with clearly superior sails... vertical cut! No seams intersecting the leech. Nil, nada, zilch. And the beginnins of a triradial mainsail, iirc.

So in less than ten years, we have progressed from (say) 35 seams intersecting the leech in slightly rubbery dacron, to no seams in very unrubbery Kevlar.

By 1987, the AC is all triradial, with maybe one or two horizontal seams.

Laminate develop marched on, but the next thing was the notion that (using the research that got the acreage laminate) it would be possible to glue the seams. And so was born the idea that horizontal shaping and zero elasticity could be achieved.

So, at the club user level today, it is highly likely that for smaller boats below 30 feet, triradial dacron sails, with perhaps 2 horizontal joining seams are a great answer. At the next size up, glued seam triradial GPL is a very good value proposition.

GPL and similar products have the advantage of higher lamination pressures, generally up to around 150 psi, whereas 'moulded' products are as yet limited to around 30 psi.

Rant over!

 

Max Rockatansky

DILLIGAF?
4,030
1,105
The track is of my catamaran beating to wx (and no, the engines were not running) with her 2013 triradial Hydranet sails. The sailmaker is Hunter Riddle of Schurr Sails in Pensacola, maybe give him a call

A5733823-6985-4DB1-B5C6-7FEE9F36ADA0.jpeg

 
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Rudder_NZ

Member
169
50
So my $1,000 NZD Tri-Radial jib has arrived from Far East Sails. Looks pretty dam good. Only thing I an not a fan of is the little plastic protectors around the hanks. They could be a bit nicer. Stiching is perfect. Will put it on the boat in the next few weeks and take it for a spin. Given the low price I am happy to take any of the downsides of Tri Radials. They will more than do the trick for a few Rum Races. 

image.png image.png

 

DELETED

Anarchist
643
316
How old is that? It looks like the same cloth and same issues as my old UK sails main and jib
I’m unsure of the exact age(were with the boat at purchase), i guess 2016/17.(?)

Doyles. Recently had them at the loft for check and repair.

will be using them again. Main plus #1 AP an #3.  Sitting/laying unused and folded seems to have been the enemy of the bonding laminate. Most of the laminate degradation is on long folded areas. 
 

If you look at the upper panels of the main compared to the lower...I’d guess previous owner mostly sailed around with 1st reef in main constantly, most probably to avoid running backstays and checks on tacks and gybes. Lower sail panel was mostly folded/scrunched over boom.

 
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